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post #91 of 181 Old 07-30-2013, 04:27 PM
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So confusing all different advices I get in different threads and forums. I had the chance today to audition 3 dacs: Jolida, benchmark, and rega. Honestly I couldn't tell them apart. They all sounded the same pretty much. Then I asked the sales rep to hook up the cd player directly to the preamp and again the sound was same. Maybe I just don't have audiophile ears. Then the sales rep started pushing me getting better cables for my interconnects and speaker wire. They weren't cheap!
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post #92 of 181 Old 07-30-2013, 04:31 PM
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They all sounded the same pretty much.
Uh, yeah, they do.
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Then the sales rep started pushing me getting better cables for my interconnects and speaker wire. They weren't cheap!
Stupidity never is.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #93 of 181 Old 07-30-2013, 04:35 PM
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Hi Don,
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Originally Posted by don480 View Post

. . . Maybe I just don't have audiophile ears. . .
No, you just don't have an audiophile brain. Your brain isn't as easily fooled by the price.
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post #94 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by don480 View Post

So confusing all different advices I get in different threads and forums. I had the chance today to audition 3 dacs: Jolida, benchmark, and rega.

Auditioning DACs is one of those things that has to be done right, or don't waste your time at all. "Doing it right" means level matched, time synched/quick switched, and double blind.

Failing any of these points can either create false perceptions of differences or obfuscation of small differences that are actually present.
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Honestly I couldn't tell them apart. They all sounded the same pretty much. Then I asked the sales rep to hook up the cd player directly to the preamp and again the sound was same. Maybe I just don't have audiophile ears.

Frankly, if you do things right, its likely that there won't be any audible differences. These days even cheap DACs have > 90 dB dynamic range and frequency response +/- 0.1 dB 50-15,000 Hz and that is everything but an absolute guarantee of no audible differences.
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Then the sales rep started pushing me getting better cables for my interconnects and speaker wire. They weren't cheap!

Any suspicion that its all about the money? ;-)
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post #95 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 03:01 PM
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Hmmm...very interesting!
A few years ago i bought a very nice dac 500$
With a outboard power supply and some very expensive cables by straightwire..analog and digital
another 500$.. hooked it up between my avr.and cd player...and..ready?...
I heard a very big difference in cd's that i have listened to for years..details...micro dynamics i have never heard before..it was sonic heaven.
Then last year i bought a oppo bd103.. the sound from the same cd was very close to my dac combo.
i think dacs have improved alot in the new gear thats been coming out lately ...but the a/v junkies we all are just love gear..cables..etc..even if we do not really need it..soooo. im still using my cd/ dac combo...becuse i wanna and i can!
I am sure my straightwire cresendo interconnects
Play a big role in the sound..and nooo placebo effect going on here...you get to know the difference after being in this hobby 25yrs!
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post #96 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 03:37 PM
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Yeah, 25 years should be enough time to learn about the psychology of hearing, but for some it's not.

25 years of doing something wrong does not equate to experience.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #97 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Yeah, 25 years should be enough time to learn about the psychology of hearing, but for some it's not.


25 years of doing something wrong does not equate to experience.
There is no right or wrong
Some people just have better hearing than others
Not everyones ears and brains work the same!
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post #98 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Yeah, 25 years should be enough time to learn about the psychology of hearing, but for some it's not.


25 years of doing something wrong does not equate to experience.


There is no right or wrong

Really?

There are no such things as universal thresholds of hearing for variations in frequency response, distortion and noise?
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Some people just have better hearing than others

Just as assuredly as nobody is going to run a standard mile in 1 minute, nobody is ever going to hear a 0.1 dB variation in frequency response.
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Not everyones ears and brains work the same!

That's true, but there are universal limits. Know of anybody who can bench press two tons?

If that weren't true there would be no such thing as a minimum human reaction time.
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post #99 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Really?

There are no such things as universal thresholds of hearing for variations in frequency response, distortion and noise?
Just as assuredly as nobody is going to run a

standard mile in 1 minute, nobody is ever going to hear a 0.1 dB variation in frequency response.

That's true, but there are universal limits. Know of anybody who can bench press two tons?

If that weren't true there would be no such thing as a minimum human reaction time.
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post #100 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

I am sure my straightwire cresendo interconnects
Play a big role in the sound..and nooo placebo effect going on here...you get to know the difference after being in this hobby 25yrs!

Lucky for you. It would be a shame to have to admit all that wasted money. Those of us who have done the bias controlled tests don't have that luxury.
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post #101 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 04:58 PM
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Yep....the incredible hulk!
Look...we are all here for one reason..we all have a passion for hi- end a/v...dont debunk what i know and believe in...theres to few of us now days, with the younger generation thinking there ipods are good enough..etc. sooo many people will never experience what we have and how we listen to our hi end gear..we all have something in common on these threads...just becuse you do not agree with me or i dont agree with you dont mean one of us is right or wrong!... just enjoy your gear and setup ..and most important ..the music!
Dont bash other forum members for there beleifs ..were in short supply!... thanks and have a great night!
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post #102 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 05:03 PM
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This is supposedly an audio/video science forum, esh. Beliefs need to have supporting evidence in science. Challenging beliefs that have no supporting evidence is also part of science; it is not simply about bashing other forum members.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #103 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 05:26 PM
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Supposable?... Science?...what is this CSI???

I'm here to talk about A/V...science is always in motion,always changing,what's true today,may not be true tommorow...guess I'm just wasting my time on this topic,when I could be listening to INCUBUS on my 49$ g.e radio..since scientifically it should sound just as good as my 10k setup.
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post #104 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 05:34 PM
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Yeah, you're wasting your time. And ours too.rolleyes.gif

What did you think the "S" in AVS stands for, anyway?

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #105 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 06:12 PM
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Supposedly....stupid!
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post #106 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Yeah, you're wasting your time. And ours too.rolleyes.gif

What did you think the "S" in AVS stands for, anyway?
beav..i went thru and read most of your threads in all these forums and all you do is bash people and talk down there responses ...you are not very nice..dont you have something better to do...like try to debunk the ufo files?.... or goverment coverups?... or the paranormal. Afterlife ghost conspiracys?...did i say you was wasting my time?..what the hells wrong with you boy????....your just obviously not a nice person!
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post #107 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

beav..i went thru and read most of your threads in all these forums and all you do is bash people and talk down there responses ...you are not very nice..dont you have something better to do...like try to debunk the ufo files?.... or goverment coverups?... or the paranormal. Afterlife ghost conspiracys?...did i say you was wasting my time?..what the hells wrong with you boy????....your just obviously not a nice person!
I couldn't help noticing your displeasure with this forum. Sorry to see that.
I've got a good news for you, there are many other online forums out there and quite a few of them don't treat members like you in such way. Have fun out there. smile.gif
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post #108 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by diomania View Post

I couldn't help noticing your displeasure with this forum. Sorry to see that.
I've got a good news for you, there are many other online forums out there and quite a few of them don't treat members like you in such way. Have fun out there. smile.gif
thanks diomania....i have talked to you before on a thread..can not remember where...but thank you
love the forum..parasound..anthem..etc
just can not express your thoughts..intrest..etc
without getting the 3rd degree....we should be able to express ourselfs on this hobby without being told were wrong, thats not right, prove it, etc!
A/V is a great hobby to be in!...thanks again
I have checked out other sites...where you are free to express yourself and your beliefs without getting pulled over and given a ticket
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

just can not express your thoughts..intrest..etc
without getting the 3rd degree....we should be able to express ourselfs on this hobby without being told were wrong, thats not right, prove it, etc!
That's just the way things are in certain places. Find a place where they do things the way you want and be merry there.
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I have checked out other sites...where you are free to express yourself and your beliefs without getting pulled over and given a ticket
Good for you. Farewell.
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post #110 of 181 Old 07-31-2013, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Supposable?... Science?...what is this CSI???

I'm here to talk about A/V...science is always in motion,always changing,what's true today,may not be true tommorow...guess I'm just wasting my time on this topic,when I could be listening to INCUBUS on my 49$ g.e radio..since scientifically it should sound just as good as my 10k setup.

Noone suggested that. You broke into the topic of DAC's, and (very rightly) someone commented.

You seem to suggest (just my viewpoint) that this hobby is all about someone's subjective opinion, and that the results gathered in the subject of sound and human perception of sound is not worthy of your acceptance.

The issue with this forum is that it is full of very knowledgable people, and a great deal of them do not wade very deep into subjectivism when it comes to something like DAC's.
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post #111 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

beav..i went thru and read most of your threads in all these forums and all you do is bash people and talk down there responses ...you are not very nice..dont you have something better to do...like try to debunk the ufo files?.... or goverment coverups?... or the paranormal. Afterlife ghost conspiracys?...did i say you was wasting my time?..what the hells wrong with you boy????....your just obviously not a nice person!

Speaking as one of the grouchier old men around here, I want to suggest that you may have confused correcting with bashing. This may be from before your time but their was once a movie and TV series called Paper Chase that centered on a (actually quite beloved) curmudgeon of a Professor Charles Kingsfield (played by John Houseman in an Academy Award-winning performance) who was pretty consistently correct but abrasive. I'm not for a second suggesting that any of the curmudgeons around hare are role playing, but those of us who remember those dramas from our early adult years may have been a little grossed out by Houseman's role then, but feel far more empathy with him now.

I'll bet you money that given a little time and education you will find most if not all of the abrasive curmudgeons around are really very helpful and very nice guys. I mean, do you want me to kiss you or give you the best education and experience based answers I can? ;-)

Oh and by the way when I read a lot of stuff on the web, I hope and pray that I'm reading the UFO files, because if it is good audio advice, then our universe really has been taken over by space aliens and they secretly changed the laws of physics.
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post #112 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Yep....the incredible hulk!
Look...we are all here for one reason..we all have a passion for hi- end a/v...dont debunk what i know and believe in..

Not debunking what you know could mean suspending disbelief which is generally a bad thing.

I routinely debunk what I know and learn many useful things because of it. The way the story goes I used to be an Absolute Sound subscriber and true believer in Harry Pearson. Then I became interested in double blind listening tests and ended up inventing ABX and doing the first ABX test. Harry Who? ;-)

The point being that I've had to debunk what I believe in in several major efforts and any number of small corrections.
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post #113 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 05:32 AM
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I remember how amazed I was listening to an old 33 rpm "stereophonic" album on an old suitcase style record player that had the detachable speakers. circa 1970

Then when I was partying with a friend and they cranked up a "better" system with big Jensen speakers.... first time I heard hifi loud. We were listening to Bad Company. I'll never forget the impression that made on me at around 15 years old.

Point is, the relativity of this field and how we have come to the point of diminishing returns. I do believe as long as you have relatively decent equipment you can experience sound to a degree that really isn't something to argue much about.

When reading through this thread, I get the impression that DAC's today aren't worth arguing over......... just like speaker wire.

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post #114 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Yep....the incredible hulk!
Look...we are all here for one reason..we all have a passion for hi- end a/v...dont debunk what i know and believe in...theres to few of us now days, with the younger generation thinking there ipods are good enough..etc. sooo many people will never experience what we have and how we listen to our hi end gear..we all have something in common on these threads...just becuse you do not agree with me or i dont agree with you dont mean one of us is right or wrong!... just enjoy your gear and setup ..and most important ..the music!
Dont bash other forum members for there beleifs ..were in short supply!... thanks and have a great night!

Then let me propose an experiment for you. This is the very same experiment that I did which eventutally led to my forming a group of audiophiles to do a series of bias controlled listening tests. I borrowed 15 pairs of interconnect cables from a friend who owns and operates an audio store. They ranged from the internconnects that are normally packaged with mid fi equipment all the way up to one pair with a list price of $7500. I put up a screen between me and my wife who was situated at my high end CD player and preamp/amp (expensive stuff from Audio Research.) We labeled each pair with a number and my wife played a piece of music with each pair telling me which number it was. After that we through 3 iterations with her changing the cables randomly without announcing the numbers. My goal was to ID the cables by number. My performance was miserable. Basically I couldn't tell one from another except for one pair that I was able to nail each iteration. It had a selling price of $1500 and was made in Japan. I returned the cables to the dealer and asked his technician to tell me if there was anything unusual about the pair that actually had a sound. His measurements revealed that the wires had extremely high inductance. His comment was that the wires were designed to roll off the high frequencies. In other words they were designed to be tone controls. The other 14 cable pairs performed accurately and identically from a freebie interconnect to a pair selling for $7500. Try it for yourself. It is a hassle but it may teach you some things about human nature and hearing bias. You can't imagine how strong hearing bias can be until you eliminate it. I am now a happy mid fi enthusiast with a decent pair of speakers. I no longer worry about how my recordings sound. I just enjoy listening to the music.
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post #115 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Then let me propose an experiment for you. This is the very same experiment that I did which eventutally led to my forming a group of audiophiles to do a series of bias controlled listening tests. I borrowed 15 pairs of interconnect cables from a friend who owns and operates an audio store. They ranged from the internconnects that are normally packaged with mid fi equipment all the way up to one pair with a list price of $7500. I put up a screen between me and my wife who was situated at my high end CD player and preamp/amp (expensive stuff from Audio Research.) We labeled each pair with a number and my wife played a piece of music with each pair telling me which number it was. After that we through 3 iterations with her changing the cables randomly without announcing the numbers. My goal was to ID the cables by number. My performance was miserable. Basically I couldn't tell one from another except for one pair that I was able to nail each iteration. It had a selling price of $1500 and was made in Japan. I returned the cables to the dealer and asked his technician to tell me if there was anything unusual about the pair that actually had a sound. His measurements revealed that the wires had extremely high inductance. His comment was that the wires were designed to roll off the high frequencies. In other words they were designed to be tone controls. The other 14 cable pairs performed accurately and identically from a freebie interconnect to a pair selling for $7500. Try it for yourself. It is a hassle but it may teach you some things about human nature and hearing bias. You can't imagine how strong hearing bias can be until you eliminate it. I am now a happy mid fi enthusiast with a decent pair of speakers. I no longer worry about how my recordings sound. I just enjoy listening to the music.
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Then let me propose an experiment for you. This is the very same experiment that I did which eventutally led to my forming a group of audiophiles to do a series of bias controlled listening tests. I borrowed 15 pairs of interconnect cables from a friend who owns and operates an audio store. They ranged from the internconnects that are normally packaged with mid fi equipment all the way up to one pair with a list price of $7500. I put up a screen between me and my wife who was situated at my high end CD player and preamp/amp (expensive stuff from Audio Research.) We labeled each pair with a number and my wife played a piece of music with each pair telling me which number it was. After that we through 3 iterations with her changing the cables randomly without announcing the numbers. My goal was to ID the cables by number. My performance was miserable. Basically I couldn't tell one from another except for one pair that I was able to nail each iteration. It had a selling price of $1500 and was made in Japan. I returned the cables to the dealer and asked his technician to tell me if there was anything unusual about the pair that actually had a sound. His measurements revealed that the wires had extremely high inductance. His comment was that the wires were designed to roll off the high frequencies. In other words they were designed to be tone controls. The other 14 cable pairs performed accurately and identically from a freebie interconnect to a pair selling for $7500. Try it for yourself. It is a hassle but it may teach you some things about human nature and hearing bias. You can't imagine how strong hearing bias can be until you eliminate it. I am now a happy mid fi enthusiast with a decent pair of speakers. I no longer worry about how my recordings sound. I just enjoy listening to the music.
And that's what its all about..no matter what or how much you spend on cables!
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post #116 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

beav..i went thru and read most of your threads in all these forums and all you do is bash people and talk down there responses ...you are not very nice..dont you have something better to do...like try to debunk the ufo files?.... or goverment coverups?... or the paranormal. Afterlife ghost conspiracys?...did i say you was wasting my time?..what the hells wrong with you boy????....your just obviously not a nice person!

Link to where I bash people?

And I guess your idea of "bashing" is my idea of helping, questioning, or correcting.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a smart-alec on here. It makes it fun for me. Seven years of college and grad school in EE, plus 17 years of working, designing and testing audio electronics, wasn't as much fun as this...so I'm making up for lost time. cool.gif

I've tried to explain things to you in the past, only to have you come right back at me. When that happens, yeah, I tend to get terse.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #117 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:40 PM
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Link to where I bash people?

And I guess your idea of "bashing" is my idea of helping, questioning, or correcting.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a bit of a smart-alec on here. It makes it fun for me. Seven years of college and grad school in EE, plus 17 years of working, designing and testing audio electronics, wasn't as much fun as this...so I'm making up for lost time. cool.gif

I've tried to explain things to you in the past, only to have you come right back at me. When that happens, yeah, I tend to get terse.
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post #118 of 181 Old 08-01-2013, 04:47 PM
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terse??
Look..i know your just TRYING to help others
But by telling me im wasting your time is ridiculous
i did not tell you that you was wasting my time did i?
The subject was dacs..questions were asked i gave my opinion ...whats the problem?
I respect your believes ..and i respect you as a A/V
Supporter...but theres no need to talk down to other forum members here.
enjoy your evening ...
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post #119 of 181 Old 08-02-2013, 02:30 AM
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To come back on the initial question. Saying that expensive is not better, is nonsense. Saying a B&W speaker, that is build to give the purest signal, is no the same as nice sounding 1000. dollar speaker If you just something nice sounding, it will do for most.

I have a quiet expensive set up, I bought second hand. The most important element are the speakers, as long as they are not good, u can put the most expensive gear behind it, it will not do. Although amps should be neutral, every brand has their own philosophy. Then the most important is that the elements MATCH. If you have a rather warm sounding amp, like my Mark Levinson 335, it will ask for a different player then lets say an Accuphase.

I tested dac's, and also players. I have a Accuphase DSP 67, considered by specialists as a reference player. Well on my gear it sound analog, yes, but highs are just too soft, and I get bored. I have a Oppo 93, and my friend a 95.
So I did a lot of listening test between them. Of course output level is matched, and the 93 cannot be connected by XLR. In professional test, the huge gap between players is often mentioned. Ok, if you are listening carefully, there IS a difference when you switch between them I would not say that I not believe some people find the 95 better. I have gear that sound much warmer then most. So the 93 plays well. It not sounds "digital" by all means. It is incredible it is more appealing on my installation then the 10 times more expensive Accuphase. The 95, highs are a bit more present, but the mids are more closed. Yes staging is a bit better, if you listening well. In direct comparison, the voices are a bit more defined also.

But, when I walk in the room and not remember which player is on, I cannot say, that it is so obvious. These players have 2 very different dac's. And yet I could not say that I am astonished by the 95, compared to the 93. Maybe with a more lively amp, the 93 will sound a bit more aggressive. And also, I will have to test this not knowing which one is on. Your mine knows that the 95 should be better, and is looking for obvious elements in it, that does makes it sound better. If the 93 would be considered the best, maybe I find something to make the 93 the winner! Anyway, the difference between them is not as important, as people want to make you think, and on most gear, not worth the investment either.

My idea is, to forget about an external Dac. Both Dacs in the Oppo's are fine!

I like my HT, wine and pretty girls. But...am I the only one
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post #120 of 181 Old 08-02-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by indieke2 View Post

To come back on the initial question. Saying that expensive is not better, is nonsense. Saying a B&W speaker, that is build to give the purest signal, is no the same as nice sounding 1000. dollar speaker
Inappropriate analogy, as speakers are electromechanical items that require a lot of labour to build and have vastly inferior transfer functions to electrical items like amps and DACs. That said, there are some excellent designs out there that are inexpensive and very good, a la the Andrew Jones Pioneers and the earlier generation of Behringer monitors. It was good design and implementation that made these excellent speakers by engineers who knew what they were doing and where to make the compromises. That doesn't cost any more than an inexperienced/incompetent designer putting out something mediocre just to have an item in the line at a given price point. On the other hand, I've heard some very expensive speakers like the Wilson W/P and the Avantgarde Trios, and I would only ever own a pair of either of these if they were gifted to me (so I could sell them and buy something good).

Solid state electronics don't cost very much on a per part basis and can (and usually are) assembled robotically for very little cost, and for a given chip run (volume made) there will not usually be an inordinant cost difference between two DAC chips as they all use similar technology. Sale price might vary for a host of reasons such as number produced, positioning in the market, exclusivity etc, but that makes not a jot of difference to the fundamental performance. The ESS Sabre DAC used in some of the OPPOs does have excellent specs in terms of numbers that look great, but when you look closely at the final performance of them the differences are in the >120dB below 0dBFS which is several orders of magnitude below what the best speakers can do. To say that you could walk into a room an immediately pick which was playing, is a claim I find ludicrous without actual evidence.
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