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post #91 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 12:43 PM
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If you hear a loud hum, the coat hanger is defective. Throw it away and straighten out another. Repeat as often as necessary. When finally you get a "no difference" result, throw out all other faulty results. Remember the goal here is to enhance the desirable narrative.
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post #92 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by josh6113 View Post

I agree...very one sided topics here....im here for the fun....and to learn what I can...smile.gif

It is an age old struggle. I, for one, came from the audiophile world. I used to buy expensive tube preamps and outboard DACs and all sorts of stuff like that. I did it for a long time. About a dozen years ago I got involved in doing some bias controlled listening tests with a group of audiophiles. That taught me all about hearing bias. Hearing bias invovles hearing things that are not there because you think they are there or should be there. Our brain simply fools us, apparently, to satisfy us in some manner. What I learned from the process is that speakers and room acoustics are huge in terms of the sonics of an audio system. The other stuff? Not so much. Sure we found a pair of cables that were designed to act as a tone control. We heard inexpensive tube amps color sound with audible distortion and bumpy frequency response curve. But basically, the stuff down line from the speakers weren't that critical. Some of them had no sound at all.

This experience gave me and the rest of the group a much better understanding of how sound reproduction works and how our brains react to it. Neither I nor other members of the group are involved in high end audio any longer. We still love music and home theater. We all still enjoying talking about the subject and learning more about it. We just don't let our brains fool us any longer. We no longer expect something to sound better so it only sounds better to us if it would sound better to anyone else. I'm still a happy audio nut but I do it without an obsession with sound. I can just enjoy the music for what it is. I practice what I preach. Here is a shot of my main listening area:



What you see below the TV screen is an AV receiver that is several years old, an ordinary blu-ray player, a Satellite TV receiver and some speakers of modest cost but more than modest sound quality. There is an old subwoofer in the corner of the room. This is a pretty modest system but you should hear the comments I get from people who hear it. I get comments like "I've never heard anything like that before." Well I have and I can tell you that it takes a lot of money to improve on the sound I have - more money than I consider sensible. I'm happy as a clam with what I have despite the fact that I've owned audio systems that cost more than both my cars combined. Why? Because I got over the equipment obsession.

Hope that helps put some things into perspective.
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post #93 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 12:51 PM
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It's tough for a blue-collar audio-freak like myself to see this kind of money spent on cables that do not have scientifically measurable impacts.

What was that term: Psychoacoustics? It has to do with a persons perception of sound. Scientifically, we may all hear the same (or similar) but there is a perception involved. If I dropped 2-grand on cables, I would tell you I heard a difference too. It's a survival mechanism. Even for those of you who can drop this kind of cash without blinking an eye, there has to be some internal justification for the cost - so you say you can hear it. I think its a bit of a placebo-effect.

So I grumble-and-mumble when I see ads in mags, and hear about people dropping big-bucks on cables. However, it's largely because I'm realizing now that I should have simply been a snake oil salesman - a coat hanger in a fancy wrapper could have made me millions. I'm not jealous of the people who can afford the snake oil, I'm jealous of the jerks who were able to market it better (and faster) than I could. tongue.gif

The only value I see in the fancy cables, are in the aesthetics and usability (flexiblity, fire properties, shielding) of the "wrapper". I admit, they look cooler than my RCA cables, and they come with dials to turn - which is always fun. But for nothing more than a "perceived improvement" (not a measurable improvement), it seems like a very bad ROI.

But there is much about how "the 1%" lives that I do not understand. The prices of cars, wine, and "kobe beef" also seem to enchant their buyers with a similar "placebo effect".
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post #94 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CubicleCrusher View Post

It's tough for a blue-collar audio-freak like myself to see this kind of money spent on cables that do not have scientifically measurable impacts.

What was that term: Psychoacoustics? It has to do with a persons perception of sound. Scientifically, we may all hear the same (or similar) but there is a perception involved. If I dropped 2-grand on cables, I would tell you I heard a difference too. It's a survival mechanism. Even for those of you who can drop this kind of cash without blinking an eye, there has to be some internal justification for the cost - so you say you can hear it. I think its a bit of a placebo-effect.

So I grumble-and-mumble when I see ads in mags, and hear about people dropping big-bucks on cables. However, it's largely because I'm realizing now that I should have simply been a snake oil salesman - a coat hanger in a fancy wrapper could have made me millions. I'm not jealous of the people who can afford the snake oil, I'm jealous of the jerks who were able to market it better (and faster) than I could. tongue.gif

The only value I see in the fancy cables, are in the aesthetics and usability (flexiblity, fire properties, shielding) of the "wrapper". I admit, they look cooler than my RCA cables, and they come with dials to turn - which is always fun. But for nothing more than a "perceived improvement" (not a measurable improvement), it seems like a very bad ROI.

But there is much about how "the 1%" lives that I do not understand. The prices of cars, wine, and "kobe beef" also seem to enchant their buyers with a similar "placebo effect".

As one who used to do that sort of thing I sympathize with those who still do. I see no problem at all in buying something because you like it or want it. I just hate to see people falling into that trap of believing that they will have a sonic improvement from it. Spend the money on speakers and room acoustics. The rest of it is an exercise in futility.
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post #95 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Our brain simply fools us, apparently, to satisfy us in some manner.

Serious research into this kind of thing has led us to understand that our minds will take 'shortcuts' whenever it can as we are bombarded with a myriad of choices every day. (subconsciously)... what amp should I get...? ...I saw a glowing review in a glossy hifi magazine once for this particular brand... so I should get that one because obviously it must be good. (A shortcut path had been established sometime in the past from reading/seeing a glossy ad/review) And then our minds will convince us that we made the right choice to take away the anxiety of the unknown of perhaps we should have brought this or that other one instead.

It is a shortcut safety mechanism of our minds to stop us from getting overloaded from the thousands and thousands of difference decisions we need to make each and every day.
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post #96 of 155 Old 08-07-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Serious research into this kind of thing has led us to understand that our minds will take 'shortcuts' whenever it can as we are bombarded with a myriad of choices every day. (subconsciously)... what amp should I get...? ...I saw a glowing review in a glossy hifi magazine once for this particular brand... so I should get that one because obviously it must be good. (A shortcut path had been established sometime in the past from reading/seeing a glossy ad/review) And then our minds will convince us that we made the right choice to take away the anxiety of the unknown of perhaps we should have brought this or that other one instead.

It is a shortcut safety mechanism of our minds to stop us from getting overloaded from the thousands and thousands of difference decisions we need to make each and every day.
Damm...now I don't know if I should get the big Mac or the quarter pounder w/cheese..think I will just go to taco bell.
Yes this theory makes sense...you just have to trust your senses when making any decisions in life.
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post #97 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 03:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CubicleCrusher View Post


But there is much about how "the 1%" lives that I do not understand. The prices of cars, wine, and "kobe beef" also seem to enchant their buyers with a similar "placebo effect".

I live in an affluent community, and have many friends who not only buy the 1% luxury items, but also share them with me. There are many luxury items that are IMO actually better. Objectively. as well as look and feel-wise BMWs are better cars than say, my Mercury. A larger boat provides a nicer environment and rides smoother on the lake. Gourmet food, even that great oxymoron the luxury hamburger can taste better than the best McDonalds. A luxury watch looks nicer than a cheap Casio.

The degree of placebo-only content in audio strikes me as being an odd special case.
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post #98 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 05:32 AM
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It would be great if someone just said "Yes i like to waste money, i think if i spend X amount on my setup then it's just weird to use $3 cables" That's cool, get some nicer looking cables, but to suggest that they make a difference? A noticable one? A BIG difference? And over 4 figures for a cable? Epic facepalm! eek.gif Then to turn around and say "The acoustics of the room don't really matter" ooyyyyy veyyyy, i'm gonna go run into a wall BRB.....

I'm sure most of us know what's going on but in case the "believers" don't, go read up on logical fallacies/placebo/power of suggestion PLEASE.
Then there are the engineers who tell us certain things aren't even possible to make something "better" in certain ways. redface.gif
Wow man, even if it WAS slightly better, over 4 figures for a cable?? It makes me want to throw up, you could have given that money to charity or something. And this freakin forum has the word science in its name! At least take it somewhere else if you are looking for of a "faith based" AV experience rolleyes.gif I've even heard stories of people having parties where everyone started to act like they were drunk from the "beer" that they were drinking, plenty of them even insisted that they were drunk after the fact! But guess what? The Beer was switched with non-alcoholic beer! cool.gif
There is no way music can become horrible just by using a cheap cable, then maybe the source or speakers weren't that good to begin with? That's exaggeration( or maybe POS working backwards?)

OMG Science is evil!!!! (posting from a computer)rolleyes.gif And while you're at the "rat shack" try to pick up a pair of Koss KSC75 headphones for $20! I and many other people agree that these are comparable/preferable to headphones that can go for as much as $300+ (Skullcandy and Beats for me)

^ I wonder how many people buy $1000 hamburgers? I do wonder where the sweet spot for something like that is tongue.gif World's best pizza! $100

And yes i used those certain words because it reminds of theists/atheists

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post #99 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk@pcavtech 
I live in an affluent community, and have many friends who not only buy the 1% luxury items, but also share them with me. There are many luxury items that are IMO actually better. Objectively. as well as look and feel-wise BMWs are better cars than say, my Mercury

As a long-time owner of two BMWs, I can say with confidence that you're right about that part. But even then, BMW doesn't do anything that, say, Ford doesn't know how to do. It's more a matter of serving their respective clienteles. People who want a Ford Fusion do not want and will not pay for the attributes that make my cars special -- manual transmissions, firm suspensions, sharp steering, hugely responsive brakes, wide, hard low-profile tires. It's a completely different driving experience. But there's nothing mystical about my cars. There's nothing mystical about a Porsche GT3 or a Ferrari 358 either. The engineers at Toyota or Chrysler or Hyundai know exactly what makes them all tick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk@pcavtech 
The degree of placebo-only content in audio strikes me as being an odd special case.

It strikes me that way too. My own hobbies are limited, of course, but I can't think of any other field of interest ostensibly based on technology where consumers willingly and openly throw away money on nonsense that is (ironically) not based on technology at all and cannot be objectively demonstrated. Then they vehemently defend the culture with more nonsense.

I don't know what kind of circulation and influence the high-end magazines actually have, but I've always wondered if they drive this embarrassing culture (that is, one of advocacy over analysis). Some of the stuff people post here sounds as if it was lifted directly from The Absolute Sound, but that's just my impression.

And you know what's ironic? My friends (relatively clear thinkers all) think my system is crazy high end!
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post #100 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 01:51 PM
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I don't know what kind of circulation and influence the high-end magazines actually have, but I've always wondered if they drive this embarrassing culture (that is, one of advocacy over analysis).
TAS and S-pile sell the fantasy to people who want to buy the fantasy. I doubt they convert too many people. They just reinforce prior beliefs and provide plausible pseudoscientific talking points.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #101 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 02:42 PM
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TAS and S-pile sell the fantasy to people who want to buy the fantasy. I doubt they convert too many people. They just reinforce prior beliefs and provide plausible pseudoscientific talking points.

I think that's part of it. The other part is that, for business reasons, they question nothing and analyze nothing. I mean, if they asked the obvious questions, the good questions (such as, "What does this $24,000 amplifier do that an $800 amp doesn't do already? ... What does this $1,500 interconnect do that the patch cords inside the box don't do already?"), then how would that serve their own agenda? If they were intellectually honest (and they're far from it, obviously), then they'd only serve to chip away at the myth (one might say the scam) that is "the high end," which butters their bread.

I love when they say something like this: "The Oppo BDP-105 is a fine player for music, almost -- but not quite -- rivaling the [name your boutique disc player] for resolution of the finest detail. But of course we wouldn't expect it to match a dedicated two-channel player priced at $17,000 ." Well, OK ... but any critical thinker might respond like this:

1. Why doesn't the Oppo not match the boutique player? How could a boutique shop with limited resources have a technological advantage over Oppo? And if it's not technology, then what?

2. How and why does the price difference relate to actual performance? What about simple economies of scale? (Of course the boutique player costs a fortune! They can't stay in business any other way.) But why should price effect our "expectations" of performance?

3. Why would a dedicated two-channel player perform any better than a multi-channel player in two-channel mode? That's an easy claim to make, but why would it be true in an empirical way?

4. Finally ... where's your objective data to complement your subjective impressions? Where are your measurements? Where are your blind, level-matched comparisons? If you don't employ those, then why the hell not?

To me, all this stuff (and more) is obvious. It's how critical thinkers approach dubious statements. But if The Absolute Sound actually approached issues this way, they'd alienate their sponsors and threaten their core business model. (Flip through TAS and count the ads for high-end cables; have fun with that.)

The solution, of course, lies with us -- people who sense crap when they see it and challenge the unsubstantiated. We're never gonna shut up, because we hold the highest ground. The ultimate saving grace, on the other hand, is that this hobby is a purely voluntary exercise practiced by adults, and I've never known anyone to deny food and shelter to his family in order to fund a new tube preamp. So if people wanna mindlessly follow the Pied Piper, it's their business. I just see Robert Harley and Harry Pearson for the opportunistic phonies that they are.
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post #102 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 03:35 PM
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All excellent points Brownstone...

I wonder how many of the subjectivist audiophiles would be okay with boarding an aircraft or taking a powerful medication that is as lacking in scientifically supported evidence as the pricey electronics, cables, and (even more ridiculous) assorted tweaks involving blocks, raisers, etc..

Some subjectivists will say, "If you don't see the value, then fine... But why rain on our parade if we do?" ..To which I'd say that I think our hobby is hurt badly when those who spend the most expect the least in terms of evidence.

I can't help but wince when I go to best buy and I overhear a salesperson telling a couple with a limited budget who want to buy a basic receiver, disc player, and floor-standing speakers that they need to spend another hundred more on cables or their system won't sound it's best. ...At this point, many of these customers simply go over to the Bose kiosk and buy one of their wave radios. Voila! ..No cables, no need to worry about veiled sound.
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post #103 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post

Wow man, even if it WAS slightly better, over 4 figures for a cable??

I clicked on TAS because it was mentioned a few posts ago and this was on the front page: Crystal Cable Absolute Dream Speaker Cable, Interconnect, and Power Cords

Price: Absolute Dream speaker cable, $28,100/2m pair; interconnect, $13,100/1m pair; power cords, $7200 apiece

five figures for cabling? Outrageous.

¿lɐɯɹou ǝq ʎɥʍ

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post #104 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 04:13 PM
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I think its just that we all want to go as far as we can in this hobby...A/V..especially 2 ch audio is my ultimate escape...after we get all the gear we have dreamed of owning..we have done the room treatments ....everything we could possible do
Every tweak...calibrate the monitor...etc
Then we ask ourselfs...ok now what?
Buying hi end cables was the last thing i invested in after all else was done...and im glad i did..i agree alot of cables do sound very close in sound quality
but after trying alot of cables..i found some very good hi end cables was that notched up sound and picture quality more than expected ..that was a very nice surprise ....now im hooked and a firm believer
sorry....dont know what to say!
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post #105 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post

I clicked on TAS because it was mentioned a few posts ago and this was on the front page: Crystal Cable Absolute Dream Speaker Cable, Interconnect, and Power Cords

Price: Absolute Dream speaker cable, $28,100/2m pair; interconnect, $13,100/1m pair; power cords, $7200 apiece

five figures for cabling? Outrageous.
I agree....that's outrageous!.... I can not think of anyone spending THAT much on cables...for that much $ u could just hire the band to play a live show in your listening room!
While I do agree with cable upgrades..I do have a limit of how much the SNAKE OIL..so called placebo
Brain malfunction broken ear syndrome can get to me!
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post #106 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

..so called placebo
Brain malfunction broken ear syndrome...

It's not a malfunction, all humans suffer from it, not just you.

The effect goes away when you control for other biases and use only your ears to try and hear the differences.
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post #107 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 08:55 PM
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.....but thats all i do use when i listen to differences!
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post #108 of 155 Old 08-08-2013, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

.....but thats all i do use when i listen to differences!

But if you know you are trying to compare for differences between a $10 set of RCA cables vs a set of $1000 RCA cables, your mind will subconsciously convince you that the $1000 set sounds better because it'll take a decision 'shortcut' based on our deep rooted notion that if it costs more then it must be better... plus also the fancy buzzwords that was on the classy looking webpage of the expensive cable retailer's site and the velvet lined wooden box that the cable came in. How could it possibly not be better than the $10 cable from radio shack..??? There is too much deep rooted subconscious persuasion going on.

Doing a listening test with those subconscious differences removed will be a lot more honest as to any audible differences.
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post #109 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 08:02 AM
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Yes....but i have done that test many times...not all expensive hi end cables are really better.
i bought a pair of very expensive speaker cables a few yrs back to replace my cheap monster cable
i let the cables cook for a few days before doing any critical listening ...and i hated the sound!
And they were 10x the cost of the monsters
then after trying many..many great cables by kimber
Cardas..etc...very good...but the straightwire crescendos was the icing on the cake!
The sound..detail..micro details..soundstage...depth
everything was just amazing.
its like looking at a picture of a forest....or actually walking THRU the forest..very 3good dimension
I could not believe the difference.
but yes.. i agree not ALL hi end cables sound any better than your regular cheap stuff.
ya gotta keep trying different cables until you find the ones that match up your system
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post #110 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

ya gotta keep trying different cables until you find the ones that match up your system

No, you don't, and by the way you're allowing yourself to get hoodwinked. Better to spend the money otherwise wasted on music.

I think you need to re-read what Kiwi wrote just above, carefully. What you describe is pretty far from an "ears only" comparison. If you have awareness of which cable is in place, all those subconscious biases are in effect, which do indeed alter your perception. If you don't know which wire is in place, you will find the differences to diminish to the point of pure guesswork.
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post #111 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 11:07 AM
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UuUGGHH!
IM SUBCONSCIOUSLY GETTING ON A BOAT AND HEADING OVER TO THE BAHAMAS FOR THE WEEKEND!..
NOT ALL CABLES ARE CREATED EQUALL..NOT ALL CABLES SOUND THE SAME...some do..some do not!
I will always be a believer...theres no going back
theres no point in talking about it anymore.
this whole theory only applys to audio...why is that?
If a hamburger is a hamburger...is a mcdonalds burger the same as the white castle?... can you not tell the difference???
I understand your theory about placebo effects.
and my brain tricking my ears into beleiving one is better than the other becuse it costs more
but take money out of the equation ..and just listen to each set of cables without knowing the price or brand...omg..the boats floating off the dock..gotta go!
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post #112 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

[snip for clarity]

...but the straightwire crescendos was the icing on the cake!
The sound..detail..micro details..soundstage...depth
everything was just amazing.
its like looking at a picture of a forest....or actually walking THRU the forest..very 3good dimension
I could not believe the difference.

Jeez, it's amazing the claims people make. I'll open with a one-word question for you: How?

If cables (or most modern electronics) are going to make a difference, it'll be in the "big three" areas: frequency response, noise and distortion, all of which are measurable. In the case of cables (which do nothing other than pass a signal), the most likely variation would be frequency response, which should otherwise be flat. (Even then I'm not sure how a manufacturer would design a cable to behave as, say, a high-cut filter without any other components in the signal path.)

And soundstage? Why are "audiophiles" so in love with that word? The soundstage is almost entirely a product of settings made at the mixing board. After that it's a matter of speakers, speaker placement and the speakers' interactions with the room. How would a cable, by itself, move the piano from center-left to hard left? How would that work? (Well, assuming the connections for each channel perform the same, which they damn well better.)

Same for "depth" and "three dimensionality." These are more aural tricks painstakingly created at the mixing board. So, again, explain to us how cables (or an amplifier or disc player or anything else upstream of the speakers and room) are going to modify the work of the sound engineer, producer and mastering engineer? I actually wanna know.

Electronics aren't magical. For once, "audiophiles" need to say, "This is what I'm hearing, and this is why I think it's happening." Relate your findings to something real. That'd be a start. Else I'll just assume you're imagining it or making it up.
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post #113 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

If a hamburger is a hamburger...is a mcdonalds burger the same as the white castle?... can you not tell the difference???

Dude, no one mentioned burgers. We already understand cooking methods and fat content and seasonings and ingredients in bread and condiments. All of us could distinguish among McDonald's and White Castle and Burger King and Wendy's in blind taste tests 100% of the time. Every time. This month, next month, forever more. We already know why they taste different. So why do cables sound different?

Bad analogy.
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post #114 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 12:13 PM
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...but take money out of the equation ..and just listen to each set of cables without knowing the price or brand...omg..the boats floating off the dock..gotta go!

Ok, so now go and actually do that, and then get back to us. Or enjoy the voyage on the SS McGurk. Your choice. But the evidence-based approach is a much more direct and cost effective route than sailing the seas of self delusion.

Some reading material for the voyage (thanks to Hydrogenaudio for compiling these!):

John Dunlavy, liar tests (the listeners are said that something is changed while it is not true) :
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/...les/23down.html

Measurements and ABX test on speaker cables (failure) :
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry135916

Measurements and ABX test on speaker cables (success) :
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;#entry148461

Monster versus Opus MM :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

Monster 1000 versus Belden (success with Martin logan SL3, stats to be verified), Monster 1000 versus coathangers : failure !
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showt...15412#post15412

Success.
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Greenhill.pdf (dead link, reported to B.Coppola the 14/07/2010).
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post #115 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 03:00 PM
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Hey Mon!
I be over on DA island now..VERY good cables here don't ya know Mon..listening to 311 on me friends 70s Sony boom box,with a coat hanger for de
antenna...sounds amazing!... The birds..DA ocean,it all just sounds incredible don't ya know Mon!.. By DA way all the above links above say
Error--no page found!
But anyway..I be relaxing now..tell ya what
I will Neva mention cables again!
Can't we all just get along?.. And respect each others beliefs?.. But no more cable talk!
Sooo...anyway I just swapped them all for a brownie!....... Peace A/V !
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post #116 of 155 Old 08-09-2013, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Hey Mon!
I be over on DA island now..VERY good cables here don't ya know Mon..listening to 311 on me friends 70s Sony boom box,with a coat hanger for de
antenna...sounds amazing!... The birds..DA ocean,it all just sounds incredible don't ya know Mon!.. By DA way all the above links above say
Error--no page found!
But anyway..I be relaxing now..tell ya what
I will Neva mention cables again!
Can't we all just get along?.. And respect each others beliefs?.. But no more cable talk!
Sooo...anyway I just swapped them all for a brownie!....... Peace A/V !
I have not been able to hear the difference between cables (except when I was using some extremely thin aluminum/copper speaker wires.)
But I cannot know what you are experiencing.
I have heard many objectivists state that cable 'sound' cannot be detected by the human ear. They are undoubtedly correct. Tests bear that out.
I do not understand why people assume that we only hear with our ears. Or why they equate sound and music. I feel low frequencies with my torso, and even with my butt if I am sitting and the floor joists are vibrating. Music I feel with my whole body. Objectivists may try to reduce all this to psychoacoustics. If that is the case - perhaps further inquiry into psychoacoustics is warranted. In the meantime - enjoy your music. If your cables sound better to you - that is what you want. If your enjoyment stems from psychoacoustics, placebo effect, hocus-pocus or something we do not yet understand and are thus unable to measure - who cares? Your reality, your money, your enjoyment.
If it annoys people that you enjoy your system because they believe you should have spent your money differently, they have every right to raise their own blood pressure.
If it annoys people that you believe your experience is real, I see no reason for you to deny your experience.
If people believe that they are entitled to be rude or dismissive because they need you to agree that your experience is less valid than their expectations of what you ought to experience - that does not appear to be completely helpful.
Disclaimer: none of my observations should be taken seriously, because I like the sound of my 300B SET amp. smile.gif
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post #117 of 155 Old 08-10-2013, 05:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2obed View Post

I have not been able to hear the difference between cables (except when I was using some extremely thin aluminum/copper speaker wires.)
But I cannot know what you are experiencing.
I have heard many objectivists state that cable 'sound' cannot be detected by the human ear. They are undoubtedly correct. Tests bear that out.

I do not understand why people assume that we only hear with our ears.

We don't.

Think about it. Say to yourself "Objectivists disconnect their brains from their whole bodies during their listening tests". How would they do that?

Obviously objectivists listen just like subjectivists. Furthermore a lot of people who are currently objectivists used to be subjectivists.

Next!
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post #118 of 155 Old 08-10-2013, 05:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

.....but thats all i do use when i listen to differences!

Silly me, screw differences I listen for the musical pleasure. ;-)
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post #119 of 155 Old 08-10-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk@pcavtech View Post

We don't.

Think about it. Say to yourself "Objectivists disconnect their brains from their whole bodies during their listening tests". How would they do that?

Obviously objectivists listen just like subjectivists. Furthermore a lot of people who are currently objectivists used to be subjectivists.

Next!
yes, as I wrote:
I do not understand why people assume that we only hear with our ears. Or why they equate sound and music. I feel low frequencies with my torso, and even with my butt if I am sitting and the floor joists are vibrating. Music I feel with my whole body. Objectivists may try to reduce all this to psychoacoustics. If that is the case - perhaps further inquiry into psychoacoustics is warranted.

I realize that it is uncomfortable when parameters may need to be reexamined - but that is the nature of scientific inquiry.
If we keep repeating the tests by the parameters that were established in the 1980s, we can reasonably expect the same outcomes.
By classic/Newtonian physics - who knows, perhaps the 1980's exploration is the limit of where we can go. Is Newtonian physics the only way to explore our universe?
When we talk about the 'Laws of Physics' let's be clear that these laws were determined by people, not by the universe. Even with the scientific inquiry method, we cannot take ourselves out of the equation. The presence of the observer affects the outcome of the experiment. More importantly - our human constructs will continue to be imposed on our observations, and limit what we are able to observe. To our surprise, we have discovered that when we impose our simple math on the universe, it does not begin to explain the anomalies. So we have been forced to advance our math. We find more anomalies. Our quest isn't to find the truth, it is to search for it. The moment we say: this is the true nature of scientific reality, we will have become a religion and will try to impose our view as Truth that needs to be defended from heretics.
Sorry, I'm sounding pedantic. cheers.
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post #120 of 155 Old 08-10-2013, 08:55 AM
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Oh, good grief.

Have fun battling the scientistic straw man you've created. All that's going on here is one particular poster bristling at having his cherished beliefs questioned. He is the one with the "truthiness" position, as opposed to the evidence based position. The only loser is his wallet, and possibly others gullible enough to believe the same BS.
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