sub 100w 2-channel setup recommendations - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Brand new to this whole thing but have been doing a lot of reading on here.
I've been using a pair of B&W MM1 computer speakers for the last couple years and think it is time for an upgrade.
I've also recently listened to a demonstration of the B&W 800D floor speakers and am blown away by everything I've heard from B&W. They also seem to be well regarded here, so I think my speaker brand will be B&W.

I live in a small NYC apartment, so my limitations will be more about space/wattage than budget.
After my initial reading on this forum and previous listening experience with B&W, I think my ideal 2 channel might be:

Peachtree decco65 (or nova)
B&W CM1

My source is a macbook with lossless itunes tracks.

Before I go out and purchase this, I would like to see if there are some other brands/configurations to consider that I may have missed in my reading.

I am looking for suggestions for the ultimate sub-100-watt 2-channel setup (DAC, speakers and amp/preamp, integrated or separate) with a max budget of say 8K-10K (but from what I gather the wattage limitation will keep the price under that...hopefully) If they are separate, I would like to avoid having a full rack for this stuff

I'm also looking for current production models as opposed to vintage stuff that might need refurbishing. (I just read about a McIntosh Mc240 which sounded perfect until I realized they don't make it anymore and that I'd have to navigate the vintage market)
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post #2 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 12:26 PM
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Onkyo TX-8050 or Harmon Kardon HK990 or any modest AVR. No need to spend 8-10k for what you want.
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post #3 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 02:28 PM
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My recommendation is the
Outlaw audio RR2150.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

PS- don't spend more money on your amplification than
Your speakers. It should be the other way around.
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post #4 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 03:22 PM
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I wouldn't do the hk 990, that is a 150wpc beast. I assume he meant the hk 3490 or 3380. Any modest avr can be had for around 500 and has features you may find very useful.
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post #5 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 03:22 PM
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I wouldn't do the hk 990, that is a 150wpc beast. I assume he meant the hk 3490 or 3380. Any modest avr can be had for around 500 and has features you may find very useful.
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post #6 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a bedroom setup so no need for video support. Also want to keep it as minimal as possible in terms of size. I've been reading a bit more and I think I will be going to a sound shop this weekend to see the difference between the CM1's and CM5's.
Aesthetics is also a consideration so I would like to avoid visible plastic if at all possible.


To rephrase the original post, the goal is to find the best 2-channel system (with speakers) that can fit on top of a dresser (36"x18") and connect via USB to my laptop. I don't mind getting separates as long as it'll fit on the dresser.
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post #7 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 06:02 PM
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With that budget you can certainly do better than B&W (unless considering the Diamond series). I'd look at Kef Reference 201/2 or even the R300 bookshelf.

Low profile components are few and far between, I finally gave up and bought the Onkyo TX-8050. Cambridge Audio Topaz, Marantz NR1504 are two you might want to look at. Another thought for you is active speakers, especially if your source will always be the macbook. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities that with your budget would put a smile on anyone's face.

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post #8 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

Brand new to this whole thing but have been doing a lot of reading on here.
I've been using a pair of B&W MM1 computer speakers for the last couple years and think it is time for an upgrade.
I've also recently listened to a demonstration of the B&W 800D floor speakers and am blown away by everything I've heard from B&W. They also seem to be well regarded here, so I think my speaker brand will be B&W.

I live in a small NYC apartment, so my limitations will be more about space/wattage than budget.
After my initial reading on this forum and previous listening experience with B&W, I think my ideal 2 channel might be:

Peachtree decco65 (or nova)
B&W CM1

My source is a macbook with lossless itunes tracks.

Before I go out and purchase this, I would like to see if there are some other brands/configurations to consider that I may have missed in my reading.

I am looking for suggestions for the ultimate sub-100-watt 2-channel setup (DAC, speakers and amp/preamp, integrated or separate) with a max budget of say 8K-10K (but from what I gather the wattage limitation will keep the price under that...hopefully) If they are separate, I would like to avoid having a full rack for this stuff

I'm also looking for current production models as opposed to vintage stuff that might need refurbishing. (I just read about a McIntosh Mc240 which sounded perfect until I realized they don't make it anymore and that I'd have to navigate the vintage market)

If you like B&W:
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/800_Series_Diamond/805-Diamond.html
$5k

Not sure why you have a 100W limit on amp--more power won't be a negative, but you could still go with your Peachtree choice if you like the size and look.

B.
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post #9 of 74 Old 05-01-2013, 09:36 PM
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With that budget I would definitely go with the B&W diamond series if you decide to stick to that route. From the CM book shelf speakers, I would definitely recommend the CM5 over the CM1. There are a lot of other options as well including KEF (previously mentioned), Monitor Audio, Dynaudio, and Focal. Have you considered ID (internet direct) companies? Ascend Acoustics, Salk, Philharmonic Audio are just a few options.

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post #10 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 07:50 AM
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With that budget, I wouldn't hesitate to get the B&W 805 Diamonds and pair them with the HK 3490. Has all the inputs you would need. Although the power is rated at 120w, that is not a bad thing. It is better to have more power than you need than to not have enough and under drive your speakers. It is far easier to push a speaker into distortion with too little power than too much.
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post #11 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B View Post

Not sure why you have a 100W limit on amp--more power won't be a negative, but you could still go with your Peachtree choice if you like the size and look.
.

I'm just guessing here, but NYC apartment and bedroom setup would indicate to me that reference level listening is going to be few and far between. Why would more power in this use case be a positive? biggrin.gif

HK 3490 is not something I would want sitting on my bedroom dresser.

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post #12 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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100w was an arbitrary ceiling based on the fact that I have a relatively small room for this and I will never raise the volume to 11 or anything. I can't really imagine needing more than 30 watts based on the output of a little guitar amp I have. That said, my experience is lacking and I'm not really sure what affect the wattage has on quality vs volume.

The real restriction is the physical space. I will try and get a demo of the b&w diamond and kef's this weekend. It seems strange that in both companies there is a jump from $1500 -> $5000 in bookshelf speakers. I don't really see anything in the middle.

Do you think a beginner can experience the difference between $1500-2000 speakers and the $5000 ones?
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post #13 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

100w was an arbitrary ceiling based on the fact that I have a relatively small room for this and I will never raise the volume to 11 or anything. I can't really imagine needing more than 30 watts based on the output of a little guitar amp I have. That said, my experience is lacking and I'm not really sure what affect the wattage has on quality vs volume.

The real restriction is the physical space. I will try and get a demo of the b&w diamond and kef's this weekend. It seems strange that in both companies there is a jump from $1500 -> $5000 in bookshelf speakers. I don't really see anything in the middle.

Do you think a beginner can experience the difference between $1500-2000 speakers and the $5000 ones?

I absolutely believe that a "beginner" can hear the difference.
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post #14 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

100w was an arbitrary ceiling based on the fact that I have a relatively small room for this and I will never raise the volume to 11 or anything. I can't really imagine needing more than 30 watts based on the output of a little guitar amp I have. That said, my experience is lacking and I'm not really sure what affect the wattage has on quality vs volume.

The real restriction is the physical space. I will try and get a demo of the b&w diamond and kef's this weekend. It seems strange that in both companies there is a jump from $1500 -> $5000 in bookshelf speakers. I don't really see anything in the middle.

Do you think a beginner can experience the difference between $1500-2000 speakers and the $5000 ones?

Depends, but probably not from a cost perspective. Maybe in a blind audition without knowing the price you would pick out the more expensive model greater than 50% of the time, but this is really dependent upon the speakers behind the curtain. I had a chance very recently to listen to Kef R300 and Kef 201/2 before my friend sold off the R300. Not a blind test, nothing critical but was able to listen to them side by side. Money being no object, the characteristics of the R300 appealed to me more. Of course, I'd own either one in a heartbeat, both are great speakers but I didn't hear a $4k difference.

Another pair of speakers you might want to throw into the mix are Kef LS50. The reviews on avsforum are almost pornographic biggrin.gif

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post #15 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I saw the Kef LS50. They look like something I want in my room! I am definitely going to try and demo them this weekend. Appearance-wise, they are on the top of the current list.
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post #16 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 10:06 AM
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+1 I hear ya, I wish I had a place for them. Their frequency response doesn't go very low, so you're now looking at the possibility of adding a subwoofer. SVS makes a pair of both sealed and ported small subs, I have the SB-1000 in my small office and I like it quite a bit. It's tiny compared with the one in my HT. This brings up another minor twist - most 2 channel receivers have no integrated bass management, so the recommendation would be to shop for a cheap AVR.

Again, I wouldn't dismiss the idea of powered monitors. There are several very good choices out there. Adam Audio, Genelec, JBL, Dynaudio - there are some schweeet speakers in this category, especially with your budget! If you have a Guitar Center anywhere nearby drop in.

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post #17 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

Do you think a beginner can experience the difference between $1500-2000 speakers and the $5000 ones?

It is a truism that all speakers sound different. They just aren't that much alike. So, the difference is there to hear.

Furthermore, the same speaker sounds different in different rooms, in different places in the same room, and as the listener moves around the room. IME moving one's head a few inches can be sufficient to create the impression of a difference in sound quality.

It seems like hearing differences is pretty natural for people with reasonable hearing, so it is not clear that it would take a lot of training for someone to hear a difference between things that sound different.

it is also true that almost all listening tests are done in such a careless way that everything sounds different even when is the exactly same thing.

In that context, hearing differences is kind of trivial. More to the point is being able to hear that something actually sounds better.
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post #18 of 74 Old 05-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

100w was an arbitrary ceiling based on the fact that I have a relatively small room for this and I will never raise the volume to 11 or anything. I can't really imagine needing more than 30 watts based on the output of a little guitar amp I have. That said, my experience is lacking and I'm not really sure what affect the wattage has on quality vs volume.

The real restriction is the physical space. I will try and get a demo of the b&w diamond and kef's this weekend. It seems strange that in both companies there is a jump from $1500 -> $5000 in bookshelf speakers. I don't really see anything in the middle.

Do you think a beginner can experience the difference between $1500-2000 speakers and the $5000 ones?

Not correct, B&W makes the PM1 that sell for $2800, so if you wanted to spend less than the 805 and get more than the CM5 (in the B&W line of course) you could.

I have no doubt you can hear the difference between CM5 and 805 speakers.

My comment on the power is not a recommendation for more power, only that there is no reason to limit your choices. It seems that the issue is the 36" width on the cabinet. If you figure most decent speakers are >10" in width then you won't have room for a standard sized component otherwise you'd have more options.

For instance, you could do a McIntosh MAC6700 receiver or a MA5200, but these are 17.5" wide and deeper than the 18" cabinet you mentioned.

How wide is your laptop? If you want to set this on top you'd have to account for this width too...

B.
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post #19 of 74 Old 05-03-2013, 03:47 PM
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Look into the Salk Silks or the WOW1s; either of those with the Peachtree Nova.125 would be awesome cool.gif





The Teac A-H01 looks interesting too.


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post #20 of 74 Old 05-03-2013, 04:18 PM
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I have the supercharged song towers from Salk. He builds awesome speakers. The teac is underpowered for either the silk or wow. The peachtree would be fine.
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post #21 of 74 Old 05-03-2013, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post

I have the supercharged song towers from Salk. He builds awesome speakers.

Absolutely - the WOW1s in the picture are mine biggrin.gif

Quote:
The teac is underpowered for either the silk or wow. The peachtree would be fine.

Agreed - but if he went a different route on speakers, something with more sensitivity, then the TEAC could be a good option.

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post #22 of 74 Old 05-03-2013, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to try and demo some stuff tomorrow, but right now, it looks like the top of the list is the Peachtree nova with Kef LS50s with a possible sub.

This is purely visual aesthetics at this point since I haven't actually heard anything yet. but I will be listening to the LS50s with the most anticipation.
Stuff I plan on listening to
B&W CM5
B&W 805d
Kef LS50
Kef r300
Kef reference 201/2
Whatever else the sound guys at these shops might recommend in the same vein. I think I prefer to go the dealer route instead of internet for speakers since I can see this might be a sample/return kind of situation.


As far as amps go, the peachtree nova seems like the least hassle with the usb dac and appropriate quantity of power. Although not particularly small, it will fit with some breathing room. Another option I saw was an emotiva dac+amp stack that would fit. (again, all aesthetic choices) I looked at a number of other amps mentioned, but didn't really like how they looked.

As I understand it, the amp is less of an issue, sound-quality-wise, as long as you get the right combination of features and appropriate power. I'm interpreting this from all the suggestions for inexpensive AVRs all over the forum. If that's so, then once I narrow down the choices with the right power, then making the final choice on visual aesthetics should be ok, right? Are there any other cool looking amps out there other than mcintosh? (I realize how subjective that is...)
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post #23 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 05:41 AM
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Add Paradigm Signature S1 to your list.

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post #24 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndo View Post

As far as amps go, the peachtree nova seems like the least hassle with the usb dac and appropriate quantity of power. Although not particularly small, it will fit with some breathing room. Another option I saw was an emotiva dac+amp stack that would fit. (again, all aesthetic choices) I looked at a number of other amps mentioned, but didn't really like how they looked.

As I understand it, the amp is less of an issue, sound-quality-wise, as long as you get the right combination of features and appropriate power. I'm interpreting this from all the suggestions for inexpensive AVRs all over the forum. If that's so, then once I narrow down the choices with the right power, then making the final choice on visual aesthetics should be ok, right? Are there any other cool looking amps out there other than mcintosh? (I realize how subjective that is...)

I recently helped someone put together a minimalist system similar to your needs. They went with the Outlaw 975 pre amp (small form factor, clean aesthetics, ~$550) and an ATI 602 amp (b-stock-appeared pretty flawless to me- from classic audio parts, <$300). Granted, this cost more than what an entry level AVR would, but they wanted the small form factor the Outlaw provides, hiding the amp out of view, and the ATI scratched their made-in-USA itch, not to mention being a rock solid, no nonsense amp. It's a capable setup, for sure, although more "Adcom" than McIntosh in appearance.
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post #25 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 11:45 AM
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I don't have any direct experience with this piece, but it seems like it is right up your alley @ $2250.

http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_C5i_DAC_Integrated_Amplifier.html

B.
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post #26 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Went to a B&W shop and listened to some CM5's They were the first bookshelf speakers I've really listened to and they sounded incredible. Still have more to go, but they mentioned that they will be starting to carry the Sonus Fabre line starting next week and I should come back and sample those. They do look pretty good too.

In the mean time I hope to try out some Kef tomorrow. There are so many choices in this industry. Seems like it would be easy to fall into an analysis paralysis.
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post #27 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 07:12 PM
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You're doing it right, auditioning many speakers, which are the single most critical component choice. The rest of the gear is much easier to pick than the speakers. Hopefully you'll get ears on the KEF ref 201's tomorrow, they're really, really nice.
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post #28 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM
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See if you can audition the Harbeth 7's and HL-5's. Excellent speakers for small NYC apartments.smile.gif
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post #29 of 74 Old 05-04-2013, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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quick novice question. Is it typical to pay full retail/msrp for speakers/amps? The sound shop told me the same price that I see in all the articles and didn't give an indication that there might be any type of discount.
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post #30 of 74 Old 05-05-2013, 12:31 AM
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From what I've picked up in forums and brief experience, it depends on both the dealer and the brand. I couldn't get a dealer to budge on Totem Acoustics speakers at all, but I understand from folks here you should be able to negotiate 10% or so on B&W or Kef.

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