Adding sub to 2 channel stereo - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 72 Old 08-03-2013, 02:38 PM
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I do not know what the OP is using his setup for but I assumed it was mostly for music. Even if he is using it for movies, his LFE channel is being dropped by his source device which would be connected via a 2-channel analog connection.
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It depends upon the player. My cheap no name BRP does not drop LFE................

Yes, it does. ALL players drop the LFE channel from their 2-channel analog outputs. If it is a player with multichannel analog outputs, if configured as having NO SUB connected, the LFE channel will be dropped.

And before you "argue" with me, can I ask how you confirmed that the LFE channel is not dropped by your player? Measurements won't cut it. You need a track with something encoded solely in the LFE channel to definitively confirm this. The AVIA calibration DVD has such a track.


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I have been sending my LFE channel to my mains for over 2 years, now, with absolutely no qualms. Or issues.
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Ignorance is bliss I guess. I have tried it both ways, and the high passed mains sounded/measured much cleaner than running full range, so much so that I would never do it un-highpassed again, even with my large, efficient, high SPL capable speakers, let alone small monitors either for music or movies.

It has nothing to do with "ignorance". My speakers may well "measure much cleaner" if high-passed, but with no subwoofer, I am not going to high-pass my mains. And I am going to send my LFE channel there, too. With no reservations, except to use a little common sense. Get it?

Your speakers may well "measure much cleaner" with an even higher high-pass frequency than what you currently use. But that would be no reason, on its own, to high-pass them higher than whatever frequency you are currently high-passing them at.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #62 of 72 Old 08-08-2013, 04:41 PM
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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about in this thread. The Yamaha A-S500 is a 2.1 channel integrated amplifier. The OP merely needs to add a powered sub, connected with a conventional sub cable to the sub out port on the amplifier.

The amplifier's sub out port attenuates frequencies above 90 hz. It does not appear to be adjustable to another frequency. But not too bad a match for his Paradigm Mini Monitors (75 hz to 22 khz).

Very likely he would want to set the subwoofer to not attenuate any higher level frequencies. Just allow it to play whatever get sent to it. Pretty much a typical home theater setup – just 2.1 rather than 5.1 or 7.1

So borrow a powered sub from a friend, hook up up and see if you enjoy the sound. If so, then budget for a modest subwoofer, maybe the Paradigm PDR80 would nicely match his current speakers.

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post #63 of 72 Old 08-08-2013, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trendy View Post

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about in this thread. The Yamaha A-S500 is a 2.1 channel integrated amplifier. The OP merely needs to add a powered sub, connected with a conventional sub cable to the sub out port on the amplifier.

The amplifier's sub out port attenuates frequencies above 90 hz. It does not appear to be adjustable to another frequency. But not too bad a match for his Paradigm Mini Monitors (75 hz to 22 khz).

Very likely he would want to set the subwoofer to not attenuate any higher level frequencies. Just allow it to play whatever get sent to it. Pretty much a typical home theater setup – just 2.1 rather than 5.1 or 7.1

So borrow a powered sub from a friend, hook up up and see if you enjoy the sound. If so, then budget for a modest subwoofer, maybe the Paradigm PDR80 would nicely match his current speakers.

The problem is that even though my bookshelf speakers can only play down to 75hz well, they still attempt to play lower. The roll off curve isn't steep enough to really get rid of the bass frequencies, and the woofer excursion is still there.
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post #64 of 72 Old 08-08-2013, 07:58 PM
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Thanks that brings me up to speed – as normal, others have had greater insight into this issue. I presume that Yamaha considers that typical entry L & R speakers will have a natural steep roll off thereby eliminating the need for them to build in some form of bass management. Accordingly I would have to agree with those who suggested going with a conventional AVR.

Now the Paradigm Mini Monitors don't appear to roll off that severely. Home Theater Review measured “the –3-dB point is at 65 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 52 Hz. “ So adding a subwoofer would have to be subtle.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/paradigm-mini-monitor-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Given that I would still suggest persuading a friend to lend you a subwoofer to tryout. Experiment with the subwoofer cutoff frequency to try to find a match between where your L & R speakers are naturally rolling off. If you like what you hear maybe a sub will fit into your current system.

Otherwise, enjoy what you have for what it is. Don't bother spending any money to fix an undesirable combination of components. Odds are, in the end, you won't be satisfied. When the time is right you can swap out the amplifier or the speakers. Frankly, over the years you will likely buy several amplifiers and several sets of speakers.

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post #65 of 72 Old 08-08-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Trendy View Post

Now the Paradigm Mini Monitors don't appear to roll off that severely. Home Theater Review measured “the –3-dB point is at 65 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 52 Hz. “

Just because a speaker fails to output any useful dB levels in those lower frequencies doesn't mean that the woofer still isn't trying to when getting feed a full range signal. If you watch a small speaker driver trying to play a full range signal loudly you can physically see the woofer moving in and out very dramatically. The moment you implement bass management's high pass filter to it, say at 80hz or even 60hz, the woofer excursion drops substantially. This gives the advantage of greater mid range control and clarity. It's the same advantage that 3-ways offer over 2-ways.
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post #66 of 72 Old 08-08-2013, 08:40 PM
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As many times I can think of, thanks kiwi2 for insight. My query is why is it that one can't expect a speaker manufacturer to provide an appropriate filter for LF input beyond the speaker's capabilities? BillF?

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post #67 of 72 Old 08-09-2013, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Trendy View Post

Thanks that brings me up to speed – as normal, others have had greater insight into this issue. I presume that Yamaha considers that typical entry L & R speakers will have a natural steep roll off thereby eliminating the need for them to build in some form of bass management. Accordingly I would have to agree with those who suggested going with a conventional AVR.

This post is making the common error that bass management is all about frequency response. Good bass management makes bass cleaner (as in lowering THD) by not sending bass signals to the L&R speakers. The distortion of most speakers starts rising at least an octave above its natural bass cut-off.
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post #68 of 72 Old 08-09-2013, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

As many times I can think of, thanks kiwi2 for insight. My query is why is it that one can't expect a speaker manufacturer to provide an appropriate filter for LF input beyond the speaker's capabilities? BillF?

Some of them do. The parts required to do this are large and expensive. If the AVR is taking care of it, why double up?
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post #69 of 72 Old 08-12-2013, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

As many times I can think of, thanks kiwi2 for insight. My query is why is it that one can't expect a speaker manufacturer to provide an appropriate filter for LF input beyond the speaker's capabilities? BillF?

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Some of them do. The parts required to do this are large and expensive. If the AVR is taking care of it, why double up?

That's what I dont understand. I guess it was just wrong of me to put bookshelf speakers and an integrated amp together in the first place. Should have either gotten the bookshelves + AVR + sub, or floor standing speakers + integrated (or AVR).
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post #70 of 72 Old 08-14-2013, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

As many times I can think of, thanks kiwi2 for insight. My query is why is it that one can't expect a speaker manufacturer to provide an appropriate filter for LF input beyond the speaker's capabilities? BillF?

Passive crossovers are highly dependent on the impedance curve of the the speakers that they are supplying the signal to. Since the impedance curves of speakers are all over the map, any passive crossover inside a subwoofer is not going to be a universal solution. In contrast the crossovers in a AVR are isolated from the speakers by the AVR's power amplifier. Therefore their operation is highly predictable and good.


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Some of them do. The parts required to do this are large and expensive. If the AVR is taking care of it, why double up?

That's what I dont understand. I guess it was just wrong of me to put bookshelf speakers and an integrated amp together in the first place. Should have either gotten the bookshelves + AVR + sub, or floor standing speakers + integrated (or AVR).

I used to use a subwoofer with a 2-channel receiver, and it worked OK. I was forced to replace the receiver by its failure, probably hastened by AC power problems. I surveyed the market and found that for a few dollars more I could buy an AVR that would better exploit the subwoofer. Implementing the AVR was a sonic revelation, especially in terms of cleaning up the sound from my bookshelf speakers.
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post #71 of 72 Old 08-14-2013, 08:48 AM
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I guess it was just wrong of me to put bookshelf speakers and an integrated amp together in the first place.
It wasn't wrong. It just wasn't optimal. Lots of people have systems like this and are very happy.
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Should have either gotten the bookshelves + AVR + sub, or floor standing speakers + integrated (or AVR).
You're confusing two separate issues here. An AVR is a better modern choice than an integrated amp, whatever your speaker choice. It is especially preferable if you have a sub.

On the question of bookshelves vs. towers vs. 2.1, that's a matter of how deep you want your bass to go, along with speaker-room interaction issues.

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post #72 of 72 Old 08-14-2013, 12:14 PM
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On the question of bookshelves vs. towers vs. 2.1, that's a matter of how deep you want your bass to go, along with speaker-room interaction issues.

IME bookshelves plus a sub and good bass management have the far greater potential, both in terms of maximum performance and also in terms of price/performance.

I know of no tower speakers, even those that have something like a subwoofer built into them, have the potential of one or more separate subwoofers.
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