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post #1 of 72 Old 07-23-2013, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So I've got a Yamaha A-S500, a pair of Paradigm Mini Monitors, and a Denon CD changer and it all sounds spectacular! Only I'm wondering what I do when I add a sub (in the somewhat distant future). The Yamaha is an integrated amp and it has a sub out, but I can't put an HPF on the Paradigms. So what should I do? According to Paradigm the frequency response is 75 - 22k. Should I just set the LPF for the sub at 75hz and call it good? I'm just not sure if this is the correct procedure.

Thanks for any input you can give me!
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post #2 of 72 Old 07-23-2013, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

So what should I do? According to Paradigm the frequency response is 75 - 22k. Should I just set the LPF for the sub at 75hz and call it good? I'm just not sure if this is the correct procedure.
It's not the correct way to do it, but it's the only option I see you have. Best place for the sub would be equidistant between the speakers.
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post #3 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 07:58 AM
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So you got rid of the Paradigm Shift speakers and went with
Conventional passive speakers?? What version mini's?

A conventional AVR with built-in BASS-MGMT would have
Been your best solution...this was recommended to you
And discussed in this thread from Feb.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458420/need-a-2-1-system-for-my-dorm

Mini-Monitors are great speakers by the way.
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post #4 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

So I've got a Yamaha A-S500, a pair of Paradigm Mini Monitors, and a Denon CD changer and it all sounds spectacular! Only I'm wondering what I do when I add a sub (in the somewhat distant future). The Yamaha is an integrated amp and it has a sub out, but I can't put an HPF on the Paradigms. So what should I do? According to Paradigm the frequency response is 75 - 22k. Should I just set the LPF for the sub at 75hz and call it good? I'm just not sure if this is the correct procedure.

Thanks for any input you can give me!

The HPF on the L&R speakers in AVRs has two major benefits - reducing amplifier power requirements and reducing distortion in the L&R speakers. The second benefit and some of the first benefit can be obtained by placing a passive high pass filter in the L&R channel speaker leads. I would recommend a high pass filter with 12 dB/octave or higher slope.

There are many online crossover calculators, including this one: http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html Please see: "Second Order (12db/octave) Two-Way Crossover"

The filters will not be small or cheap in your case. The capacitors should have a voltage rating of 100 volts or more, and the inductors should have 1/2 ohm or less resistance. 5 or 10% tolerance parts are recommended. Coming up with parts with exactly the right parts values may not be easy. Capacitors can be paralleled to add up to nonstandard values. Digital voltmeters with inductance and capacitance measuring features can be found for reasonable prices. Turns can be removed from inductors to reduce their inductance. Trial and error is probably part of your future if you go down this road.

One source of crossover inductors and capacitors is Parts Express. The following part might be part of your future:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-960

It is about $40 and really only marginally good from a quality standpoint, but probably good enough to provide the desired benefit without causing any problems.
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post #5 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

So you got rid of the Paradigm Shift speakers and went with
Conventional passive speakers?? What version mini's?

A conventional AVR with built-in BASS-MGMT would have
Been your best solution...this was recommended to you
And discussed in this thread from Feb.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458420/need-a-2-1-system-for-my-dorm

Mini-Monitors are great speakers by the way.

Yup, that's what I did. I couldn't get a good pair of the shifts. One was always faulty.

It was just too difficult for me to wrap my head around a receiver for the same price being better than a purpose built 2-channel integrated amp.

They are the series 7 Mini Monitors.

The Yamaha has worked out amazingly for me. It sounds great and gets loud. I would have never thought of Yamaha as making good audio products, but it was recommended to me from the shop where I've bought all my stuff and it's hard to find a bad review of the Yamaha. Not to mention I got it at 20% off.

I don't really need a sub yet. I'm just going to enjoy what I have for the moment, but I was just curious what I will do when I do get one. Seems like the best thing would be to set the lpf on the sub around 75hz since the freq resp of the minis is down to 75hz.
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post #6 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

.......................it all sounds spectacular!
..........................but I can't put an HPF on the Paradigms. So what should I do? According to Paradigm the frequency response is 75 - 22k. Should I just set the LPF for the sub at 75hz and call it good? I'm just not sure if this is the correct procedure.

No reason to fret about the lack of a high-pass on the speakers, IMO. If it all sounds spectacular to you now, then it will still sound spectacular if you add a sub to fill in the bottom end.

I wouldn't just simply "set the LPF for the sub at 75hz and call it good". You'd want to determine the best setting, empirically. Might be 75Hz. But it might be a little lower or higher than that depending upon how the speakers perform at the low-end in their particular location in your particular room.

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post #7 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 02:34 PM
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If you dont watch movies, no need for the HPF unless you listen really really loud. Some subwoofers has an HPF which you can use IF your amp has a pre-out and power amp in
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post #8 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 02:55 PM
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If you dont watch movies, no need for the HPF unless you listen really really loud. Some subwoofers has an HPF which you can use IF your amp has a pre-out and power amp in

This is what I was going to mention. Many music subs have speaker level inputs which are tied to a HPF. Run your speaker outs from your integrated amp to the speaker level inputs on the sub, then run the speaker level outputs from your sub to your speakers. Where ever you set your crossover freq on the dial will be the dividing line between LPF and HPF.
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post #9 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 05:01 PM
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This is what I was going to mention. Many music subs have speaker level inputs which are tied to a HPF. Run your speaker outs from your integrated amp to the speaker level inputs on the sub, then run the speaker level outputs from your sub to your speakers. Where ever you set your crossover freq on the dial will be the dividing line between LPF and HPF.

The HPF on a so-equipped sub is fixed at a single frequency (somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-120Hz) and not affected by the setting of the sub's variable LPF (it's not a "crossover") knob. And although it could be argued that it might be better than nothing, this simple "HPF" is usually of poor quality.

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post #10 of 72 Old 07-24-2013, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by qguy View Post

If you dont watch movies, no need for the HPF unless you listen really really loud. Some subwoofers has an HPF which you can use IF your amp has a pre-out and power amp in

My amp DOES have the ability to send a signal for the purpose of recording a source. Would that be a pre-amp signal? Could I then take the filtered signal from the sub's line out and put it into any given input on the amp (other than phono, of course)?

The other problem with that is what the other guy mentioned... I cant imagine the filtered signal from the sub's line out would be a very good, clean signal.
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post #11 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 06:17 AM
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The HPF on a so-equipped sub is fixed at a single frequency (somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-120Hz) and not affected by the setting of the sub's variable LPF (it's not a "crossover") knob. And although it could be argued that it might be better than nothing, this simple "HPF" is usually of poor quality.

Not necessarily so, my Velodyne DPS-10 has a sweepable HPF that is associated with the setting of the LPF according the Velodyne documentation. Perhaps mine is the only model to do so, but I find that hard to believe. For as long as I can remember the terms Crossover and High/Low Pass Filter have been used interchangeably. I know that there is a difference, but to the lay person that is being nit picky.
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post #12 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 10:31 AM
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Not necessarily so, my Velodyne DPS-10 has a sweepable HPF that is associated with the setting of the LPF according the Velodyne documentation. Perhaps mine is the only model to do so, but I find that hard to believe. For as long as I can remember the terms Crossover and High/Low Pass Filter have been used interchangeably. I know that there is a difference, but to the lay person that is being nit picky.

Is this a line-level or speaker-level HPF? I have never heard of a sub with a continuously variable HPF on its speaker-level outputs. That doesn't mean such a creature doesn't exist, though.

And it is not being nit picky. Whether you want to call a fixed high-pass filter coupled with a continuously variable low-pass filter a "crossover" or not is up to you. But the difference between that and a truly continuously variable crossover is not trivial and is very relevant to how one would configure their subwoofer.

BTW, do you have a link to your subwoofer's owner's manual? I found this review which indicates that the DPS-10 has a fixed 80-Hz high-pass with a continuously variable low-pass filter.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/velodyne-dps-10-subwoofer-8-2004.html

Specifications:

● Driver: 10" Forward-Firing in Slot-Loaded Enclosure
● 40 Oz Magnet
● Amplifier: 375 Watts Peak, 185 Watts RMS
High-Pass: 80 Hz
Adjustable Low-Pass: 40 Hz - 120 Hz
● MFR: 28 Hz - 120 Hz � 3 dB
● Inputs: Line-Level RCA and Speaker-Level
● Outputs: Line-Level RCA and Speaker-Level
● Dimensions: 15.5" H x 14.5" W x 18.5" D
● Weight: 53 Pounds
● MSRP: $499 USA



EDIT: Nevermind, I found it HERE. I do not see anything in the DPS-10 manual to indicate that there is anything other than a fixed high-pass filter being applied to the speaker-level outputs. If you can show me otherwise, that'd be great. Thanks.

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post #13 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

The Yamaha has worked out amazingly for me. It sounds great and gets loud. I would have never thought of Yamaha as making good audio products, but it was recommended to me from the shop where I've bought all my stuff and it's hard to find a bad review of the Yamaha. Not to mention I got it at 20% off.

I don't really need a sub yet. I'm just going to enjoy what I have for the moment, but I was just curious what I will do when I do get one. Seems like the best thing would be to set the lpf on the sub around 75hz since the freq resp of the minis is down to 75hz.

Yamaha started off as a piano and organ manufacturer back in the late 1800s. They grew into other businesses from there, but musical instruments and associated electronics are a large part of their business. smile.gif

Everyone needs a sub smile.gif (IMHO)...especially with mini monitors that stuggle with 75hz...

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post #14 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 10:45 AM
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^^^

www.velodyne.com/pdf/dps/dps_manual_english.pdf‎

No HPF. No line level outputs (for HP), only inputs. No indication speaker levels outputs are anything put an unmodified pass through.
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post #15 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sjv7883 View Post

My amp DOES have the ability to send a signal for the purpose of recording a source. Would that be a pre-amp signal? Could I then take the filtered signal from the sub's line out and put it into any given input on the amp (other than phono, of course)?

Yes, that IS a pre-amp level signal but what is output from the REC OUT is not affected by your volume setting, so that wouldn't work.

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post #16 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 10:54 AM
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^^^

www.velodyne.com/pdf/dps/dps_manual_english.pdf‎

No HPF. No line level outputs (for HP), only inputs. No indication speaker levels outputs are anything put an unmodified pass through.

It does say that the speaker-level outputs are high-passed. See the top of pg.8, for example.

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post #17 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 11:43 AM
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I admit, that I may be wrong about the variable HPF on my sub. I downloaded and read through the manual and can't find what I thought I had read before.
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post #18 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 11:55 AM
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It does say that the speaker-level outputs are high-passed. See the top of pg.8, for example.
It doesn't give F3, slope or the load it was determined under or a poower rating. How could the speaker level outs be variaable then? As this HPF would be passive it would have to be at a fixed frequency as the L and C required would need to vary over quite a range which would make the parts large and expensive, and in 30 years in electronics I have never seen a cvariable cap of this size. For example, for a simple 1st order HPF, a series cap, for 40Hz/8R it would have to be about 500uF. Whilst caps of this size are common, variable caps are not. If it is fixed, what's the point as you couldn't integrate the sub and speaker well. The engineering staff also couldn't design it well as the values depend upo the specific impedance curve of the speaker attached, and as it's sold as an individual unit and could be used with a myriad of speakers, they could never know what it's impedance was.

It's more likely whomever wrote the manual misunderstood what the engineering staff told them.
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post #19 of 72 Old 07-25-2013, 12:05 PM
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It doesn't give F3, slope or the load it was determined under or a poower rating. How could the speaker level outs be variaable then? As this HPF would be passive it would have to be at a fixed frequency as the L and C required would need to vary over quite a range which would make the parts large and expensive, and in 30 years in electronics I have never seen a cvariable cap of this size. For example, for a simple 1st order HPF, a series cap, for 40Hz/8R it would have to be about 500uF. Whilst caps of this size are common, variable caps are not. If it is fixed, what's the point as you couldn't integrate the sub and speaker well. The engineering staff also couldn't design it well as the values depend upo the specific impedance curve of the speaker attached, and as it's sold as an individual unit and could be used with a myriad of speakers, they could never know what it's impedance was.

It's more likely whomever wrote the manual misunderstood what the engineering staff told them.

I didn't say it said they were variable. I know it's fixed. You said "No indication speaker levels outputs are anything put an unmodified pass through". I said it appears that there is a high-pass. Yes, fixed, of course. wink.gif

And, yes, the explanation and terminology used in the manual are pretty bad.

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post #20 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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So after all.... other than buying a new receiver, what would be my best option? Run the speakers full range and mess with the sub's lpf until it sounds right? And then just be careful not to clip/distort the speakers?
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post #21 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 09:39 AM
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.......................what would be my best option? Run the speakers full range and mess with the sub's lpf until it sounds right? And then just be careful not to clip/distort the speakers?

IMO, yes

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post #22 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

^^^

www.velodyne.com/pdf/dps/dps_manual_english.pdf‎

No HPF. No line level outputs (for HP), only inputs. No indication speaker levels outputs are anything put an unmodified pass through.

It does say that the speaker-level outputs are high-passed. See the top of pg.8, for example.

I've run the same L & R speakers + sub with high pass filtering on the L&R speakers and also run the L&R speakers full range. The high pass filter provided a big improvement in sound quality.
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post #23 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've run the same L & R speakers + sub with high pass filtering on the L&R speakers and also run the L&R speakers full range. The high pass filter provided a big improvement in sound quality.

anecdotal wink.gif

What speakers? What sub? How were they high-passed, exactly?

The OP already said he thought his setup currently "sounds spectacular". His speakers have an F3 of 75Hz. I doubt that high-passing his speakers through a sub's crappy speaker-level high-pass filter (assuming the sub he decides to purchase even has high-passed speaker-level outputs) is going to provide a "big improvement in sound quality".
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post #24 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I've run the same L & R speakers + sub with high pass filtering on the L&R speakers and also run the L&R speakers full range. The high pass filter provided a big improvement in sound quality.

anecdotal wink.gif

Yes, but audible differences due to changes like this are not very controversial.

Quote:
What speakers?

Boston CR9 - totally ancient but in good shape. Larger woofer driver but similar volume box as the Paradigm. Rated to have response down to 42 Hz but no tolerance given. Probably not all that different in terms of bass extension and dynamic range.
Quote:
What sub?

Paradigm PS Series 12" Totally ancient and it turns out that the surround on the woofer was on its last legs or past them at the time.
Quote:
How were they high-passed, exactly?

Speaker level filters in the sub.
Quote:
The OP already said he thought his setup currently "sounds spectacular".

Everybody says that! ;-)
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His speakers have an F3 of 75Hz. I doubt that high-passing his speakers through a sub's crappy speaker-level high-pass filter (assuming the sub he decides to purchase even has high-passed speaker-level outputs) is going to provide a "big improvement in sound quality".

Letsee, I don't have a bias-controlled test, and you no have test of any kind.
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post #25 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 10:54 AM
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So after all.... other than buying a new receiver, what would be my best option? Run the speakers full range and mess with the sub's lpf until it sounds right? And then just be careful not to clip/distort the speakers?

Your best option is to get the sub you don't have and not try to make settings for a sub you don't have....or do you have a sub? You said earlier you don't...I'm confused why you keep saying to set the sub's lpf if you don't have one. Yes, run your speakers at full range if you don't have a sub (and don't tell the avr you are using a sub if you don't have one)

"I don't really need a sub yet. I'm just going to enjoy what I have for the moment, but I was just curious what I will do when I do get one. Seems like the best thing would be to set the lpf on the sub around 75hz since the freq resp of the minis is down to 75hz."

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post #26 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 11:08 AM
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....................and you no have test of any kind.

Hmmm, kemosabe, Tonto say heap big benefit of high-passing speakers with F3 already near high-pass frequency, in music system used at even moderately loud volumes, overrated. biggrin.gif

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post #27 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

....................and you no have test of any kind.

Hmmm, kemosabe, Tonto say heap big benefit of high-passing speakers with F3 already near high-pass frequency, in music system used at even moderately loud volumes, overrated. biggrin.gif

It is nice of you to support your own personal opinion with your own personal opinion. ;-)

One big advantage of high passing L&R speakers accrues when the best position for upper range imaging isn't the best position for clean bass, which often happens.
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post #28 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

One big advantage of high passing L&R speakers accrues when the best position for upper range imaging isn't the best position for clean bass, which often happens.


Negligible if the speakers' F3 is already near the frequency they would be high-passed, anyway.

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post #29 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

One big advantage of high passing L&R speakers accrues when the best position for upper range imaging isn't the best position for clean bass, which often happens.


Negligible if the speakers' F3 is already near the frequency they would be high-passed, anyway.

Adding an electrical filter at the same frequency can have benefits.

If I understand the spec sheet right, the OP's speakers are sealed boxes, which are second order systems with gentle acoustic 12 dB/octave slopes. An AVR or high level crossover will approximately double that which is practically speaking, a big improvement. Speakers start generating higher distortion well above their 3 dB point as this example shows:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio20_v3/ (closest model I could find online)





Note that the - 3dB point of these speakers is about 80 Hz, but that at 80 Hz the THD has has already risen substantially. It started rising sharply around 150 Hz. By taking the difference between the output line and the distortion line we find an approximate 26 dB difference which corresponds to about 5% nonlinear distortion (probably audible). The distortion is clearly increasing rapidly and is much worse at lower frequencies. Adding another 12 dB/octave high pass filter rapidly decreases the drive to the speaker at lower frequencies and helps keep the nonlinear distortion down.
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post #30 of 72 Old 07-26-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Adding an electrical filter at the same frequency can have benefits.

If I understand the spec sheet right, the OP's speakers are sealed boxes, which are second order systems with gentle acoustic 12 dB/octave slopes. An AVR or high level crossover will approximately double that which is practically speaking, a big improvement. Speakers start generating higher distortion well above their 3 dB point as this example shows:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/paradigm_studio20_v3/ (closest model I could find online)





Note that the - 3dB point of these speakers is about 80 Hz, but that at 80 Hz the THD has has already risen substantially. It started rising sharply around 150 Hz. By taking the difference between the output line and the distortion line we find an approximate 26 dB difference which corresponds to about 5% nonlinear distortion (probably audible). The distortion is clearly increasing rapidly and is much worse at lower frequencies. Adding another 12 dB/octave high pass filter rapidly decreases the drive to the speaker at lower frequencies and helps keep the nonlinear distortion down.

For once graphs are actually making sense to me. But my speakers are actually ported.

"2-driver, 2-way bass reflex, quasi-3rd-order resistive port"

Does this mean they have an 18dB (3rd order) slope?
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