Adding an integrated to a receiver.. Affordable upgrade or not? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 65 Old 08-12-2013, 09:09 AM
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I wonder what would happen if someone used the various levels of Audyssey (or YPAO or MCACC or whatever) and used good testing procedures to compare them. I suspect that the law of diminishing returns would be at least a little apparent.


 


An addendum to my earlier reply.


By coincidence, someone reminded me yesterday that this has been done in the Official Audyssey Thread. The graph below shows dramatically the difference between Audyssey XT32 and XT, measured from the preouts.






"Red and green traces are XT32, blue is XT. Keep in mind that these are electrical measurements from the receiver's pre-out, not acoustical measurements with a microphone. Since the graph shows you what the filters are doing, you can think of it as the inverse of the frequency response (a dip on this graph is Audyssey pulling down a peak in the frequency response). Like looking at a negative of a photograph.







"Look at the blue trace (XT) and compare how little correction is being done in the low frequencies and how much is being done in the high frequencies. By comparison, the red


I tried, but couldn't find it.


Could you provide some boilerplate about what speakers, AVR, etc?

The measurement was direct from the AVR preouts so the speakers aren't relevant.

I think the speakers are highly relevant because the graph really makes no sense as it stands. Its meaning is in the context, which includes the speakers and their crossover points.

For example, if the center channel speaker were crossed over at 80 Hz, then any Audyssey function below that is far less important, and the crossover's action should be reflected in the charts.

This AVR has 2 sets of relevant outputs, the Pre outs and the speaker outs. They differ by the volume control setting and the transfer function of the internal power amps. Both of those are trivial.

We can't make the assumption that XT32 always does a more accurate job until we can establish that by other means. About the only thing I know for sure is that XT32 is a very different product from XT. It appears to be using a set of virtual parametric equalizers over the full frequency range.

XT appears to be based on an inverted Fourier transform above about 2 KHz and far fewer virtual parametric equalizers below that. It's trying to do something @50 Hz, but depending on the center channel crossover, that could be far less important.
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I can’t be 100% sure what AVR rickardl (the OP) uses offhand but I believe from memory that it is one of the higher end Onkyos with XT32. I have asked in the Audyssey Thread for a link to rickardl's original post with the graph, as I cannot locate it using the search function. If someone responds with the link I'll post it here.

Thank you.
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post #62 of 65 Old 08-12-2013, 10:48 AM
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I think the speakers are highly relevant because the graph really makes no sense as it stands. Its meaning is in the context, which includes the speakers and their crossover points.

For example, if the center channel speaker were crossed over at 80 Hz, then any Audyssey function below that is far less important, and the crossover's action should be reflected in the charts.

This AVR has 2 sets of relevant outputs, the Pre outs and the speaker outs. They differ by the volume control setting and the transfer function of the internal power amps. Both of those are trivial.

We can't make the assumption that XT32 always does a more accurate job until we can establish that by other means. About the only thing I know for sure is that XT32 is a very different product from XT. It appears to be using a set of virtual parametric equalizers over the full frequency range.

XT appears to be based on an inverted Fourier transform above about 2 KHz and far fewer virtual parametric equalizers below that. It's trying to do something @50 Hz, but depending on the center channel crossover, that could be far less important.
 

 

 

I think we are at cross-purposes, Arny. All the graph is purporting to show is the measured electrical difference at the preouts when comparing XT32 and XT wrt to the effect it has on the input frequencies. One can assume that all other settings, eg crossovers, are the same for both sets of graphs (rickardl is usually meticulous in his measuring protocols). The graph shows how the input signal is changed by the two different Audyssey versions - barely at all in the bass for XT, quite significantly for XT32.

 

I think you are right that XT32 is a very different product from XT - even casual listening tests will reveal the difference in the bass optimisation. I was astonished when I went from XT to XT32.

 

 

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I can’t be 100% sure what AVR rickardl (the OP) uses offhand but I believe from memory that it is one of the higher end Onkyos with XT32. I have asked in the Audyssey Thread for a link to rickardl's original post with the graph, as I cannot locate it using the search function. If someone responds with the link I'll post it here.

Thank you.

 

No problem. When I get the info I will post it and we can look at the original post in its context.
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post #63 of 65 Old 08-12-2013, 02:28 PM
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@Arny....

 

Arny, I still haven't heard back from the person who has the link we want, but someone pointed out this link, which did similar tests and came to the same conclusion re XT32 vs XT.

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3570#post_22725461

 

The poster is an experienced user of REW.

 

EDIT: here is the link to the other part of the thread, mentioned in my first post on the topic:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/42360#post_20812908

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post #64 of 65 Old 08-15-2013, 03:48 PM
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" By comparison, the red & green traces (XT32) show lots of correction in the critical bass range, with the high frequencies being very generally shaped tonally (filter is smooth, broad shape) rather than correcting individual peaks & dips

Seems like an awful lot of money to pay for something I can do myself.
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post #65 of 65 Old 08-16-2013, 10:25 AM
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" By comparison, the red & green traces (XT32) show lots of correction in the critical bass range, with the high frequencies being very generally shaped tonally (filter is smooth, broad shape) rather than correcting individual peaks & dips

Seems like an awful lot of money to pay for something I can do myself.

 

How would you go about adjusting the frequency response on the fly (dynamically) as the volume changes? I understand it's possible to make any curve you like using PEQ, but it will only be valid for one setting of the MV. Change the MV without changing the curve and you are affecting the perceived bass. That's just one example of what Audyssey can do that I can't see a way to replicate.

 

Dynamic EQ also changes the levels of the surrounds dynamically as the volume changes too - there's no way I can see how someone can do that for themself.

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