Are there any disadvantages in 2 channel audio with an avr? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 08-09-2013, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Will I lose anything of I listen to 2 channel rock music with denon avr 789 driving giant 4 way 6 ohm speakers with 2 8 inch woofers rated 90 db sens in a 16x19 ft room?

WILL denon 4308 be any better?

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post #2 of 32 Old 08-09-2013, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Ps without audyssey calibration I never crank the dial more than -20 if that helps (probably not is my guess)

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post #3 of 32 Old 08-09-2013, 05:29 AM
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The 4308 wouid be better. The 789 is a mid to low range AVR for Denon. The 4308 is more top of the line and can put out more clean power. But let your ears be the judge. Given you only crank to about -20 db, I'm not sure you'd notice a lot of difference.

I'd urge you to use the audyssey calibration. I've found it helpful even for two channel music. If you have difficult room acoustics and a wife that's not fond of acoustical room treatments, then I'd use it.
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-09-2013, 09:19 AM
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WILL denon 4308 be any better?
Not in terms of power. The 789 appears to have more than enough to drive your speakers.

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post #5 of 32 Old 08-10-2013, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?

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post #6 of 32 Old 08-10-2013, 07:34 AM
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Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?
First off, just because a manufacturer reports a power spec of "90 watts x 7 channels" does not mean that AVR can really deliver 90 watts to all 7 channels simultaneously. They're almost certainly fudging.

To answer your general question, an AVR can deliver more power per channel driving 2 channels than driving 7, but the total for the 2 channels won't equal the total for the 7 channels.

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post #7 of 32 Old 08-10-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

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Does anyone know if avr 789 is rated 90x7=630w and avr 4308 is rated 140x7=980w could the watts be completely channeled to 2 channels?
First off, just because a manufacturer reports a power spec of "90 watts x 7 channels" does not mean that AVR can really deliver 90 watts to all 7 channels simultaneously. They're almost certainly fudging.

There is a built in fudge that is always part of reality, and that is the crest factor of music (6-9 dB or more) as compared to the crest factor of the sine waves that are generally used to establish power ratings like the one you seem to be talking about (3 dB). If there is a 6 dB difference between the two that is 4 times the power which implies that you can run 8 channels of music with the same amount of power supply load as 2 channels of sine waves. Generally its power supply sharing that sets the pace for however many channels are being operated.

Most AVRs are rated at 85-110 watts sine waves @ 2 channels.

As the saying goes, do the math! ;-)
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post #8 of 32 Old 08-10-2013, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

Ps without audyssey calibration I never crank the dial more than -20 if that helps (probably not is my guess)

Without Audyssey system calibration the markings on the volume control dial are pretty much meaningless.

Do your Audyssey calibration and then selected a muted or paused digital source. Turn the volume control fully clockwise. What is the setting in dB?

Now don't go chicken or lazy on me here. We're talking maybe 5 minutes of easy work, mostly sitting on the couch. Do it and get back to us with the number which is probably > 80, quickly! ;-)
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post #9 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I have done audyssey on my denon avr 789 ... I don't see the volume knob changing any displays. it still says -80dB up to 0

hmm ...

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post #10 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 04:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

I have done audyssey on my denon avr 789 ... I don't see the volume knob changing any displays. it still says -80dB up to 0

hmm ...

According to the avr 789 users manual there is a volume display in the upper right hand corner of the fluorescent display on the front panel. It is shown as item 7 on page 5 of the user's guide.
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post #11 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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the number range gives negative 80 up to 11dB

I've tried all the settings to modify this number but no luck. maybe it's saying 11dB above reference? but then sometimes it blinks and says -4dB ref when my knob is at -30-40dB

sorry i'm dumb

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post #12 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

the number range gives negative 80 up to 11dB

I've tried all the settings to modify this number but no luck. maybe it's saying 11dB above reference? but then sometimes it blinks and says -4dB ref when my knob is at -30-40dB

I suspect that 11 dB in this case may indeed mean that max is 11 dB above reference. That's 116 dB on peaks and is $@%% loud for typical home use. I don't know why this number is not changing smoothly as you adjust your volume control. Mine does.
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post #13 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 06:13 PM
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the "-4 dB" display may be a result of Dolby's Dialog Normalization feature. Many DVDs and Blu-ray discs include a number encoded into the A/V stream indicating the relative volume of dialog as compared to the peak volume. The Dolby decoder (your AVR) can then adjust the system volume automatically to optimize playback. The "-4" does not mean that your AVR raised the overall system volume to -4. It indicates that it adjusted (reduced) the effective volume level by 4dB relative to whatever volume level you had already selected. This "-4" would be displayed only temporarily, and usually only when beginning playback of a DVD or Blu-ray movie.
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post #14 of 32 Old 08-11-2013, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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hmm that explains why I had to increase the centre channel a full 4dB before it was anywhere near balanced with the fronts. having said that my surrounds were way too loud and had to go down a full 4dB to get in line with the rest of the gang (this is with ONE scene of surround sound action and it's pretty obvious the channels were of different volumes!)

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post #15 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

hmm that explains why I had to increase the centre channel a full 4dB before it was anywhere near balanced with the fronts. having said that my surrounds were way too loud and had to go down a full 4dB to get in line with the rest of the gang (this is with ONE scene of surround sound action and it's pretty obvious the channels were of different volumes!)
There is some conjecture in this thread. I'd suggest you go to the recievers forum and seek out Batpig in a denon thread. He can answer your questions with no conjecture.
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post #16 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 08:48 PM
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No, Dialog Normalization would not cause you to need to adjust the relative levels of your fronts versus center versus surrounds. You should not use any specific movie scene to adjust channel levels. Movie scenes are not mixed to have equal levels from all speakers -- that is, the volume levels from each speaker are usually supposed to be different. Use the test tones built into your AVR -- or your AVR's auto-setup routines -- for setting channel levels.
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post #17 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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the avr also told me that all my speakers should be set to 40Hz crossover for bass ... only 1 set of speakers is rated below that.

I take your point about the volume but I like to fiddle because my house just about explodes from all the other speakers and I can't hear a word the guy's saying

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post #18 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 09:32 PM
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That's after running the Audyssey setup? Have you tried the various Night / DRC / Dolby Volume modes?

The suggested crossover points can be influenced also by room gain (placement close to walls or corners, etc). So they may not match the manufacturer's stated -3 dB point. That's usually okay. But you can safely raise them if you prefer.
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post #19 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 09:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post

The 4308 wouid be better. The 789 is a mid to low range AVR for Denon. The 4308 is more top of the line and can put out more clean power. But let your ears be the judge. Given you only crank to about -20 db, I'm not sure you'd notice a lot of difference.

I'd urge you to use the audyssey calibration. I've found it helpful even for two channel music. If you have difficult room acoustics and a wife that's not fond of acoustical room treatments, then I'd use it.

thanks. I thought what the hell my speakers aren't perfect let's let audyssey decide how it wants to tweak it and I must say, despite what the flat curve says (it dropped all the bass frequencies a lot and raised everything from 1khz upwards by at least 6dB!!!) my room sounds nearly amazing now. before that it was very shouty.

I have chosen to stick with my current avr and use audyssey and I've added an HSU ULS 15 - the bass is creamy smooth now ... thanks for all your help

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post #20 of 32 Old 08-12-2013, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by skriefal View Post

That's after running the Audyssey setup? Have you tried the various Night / DRC / Dolby Volume modes?

The suggested crossover points can be influenced also by room gain (placement close to walls or corners, etc). So they may not match the manufacturer's stated -3 dB point. That's usually okay. But you can safely raise them if you prefer.

the fronts are rated down to 28Hz at -6dB the centre is rated down to around 70Hz the rears are rated to just under 50Hz.

I have no idea how my audyssey even got the 40Hz cross over for all of them

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post #21 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 02:31 AM
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thanks. I thought what the hell my speakers aren't perfect let's let audyssey decide how it wants to tweak it and I must say, despite what the flat curve says (it dropped all the bass frequencies a lot and raised everything from 1khz upwards by at least 6dB!!!) my room sounds nearly amazing now. before that it was very shouty.

I have chosen to stick with my current avr and use audyssey and I've added an HSU ULS 15 - the bass is creamy smooth now ... thanks for all your help

One additional note. The denon 789/1909 has a firmware bug relative to bass playback. You can go to that thread and read about it. But suffice it to say whan you play anything back on bluray, have the player decode and send the audio via pcm do not bitstream and let the denon decode. It has a bug which exaggerates the bass in bitstream mode. It is fixable, but unfortunately firmware updates have to be done at a service center. You might consider a newer networked denon in the future where firmware updates are done by the user.

Just out of curiosity are your speakers rear ported? How close to a wall are they?
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post #22 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 03:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I checked the firmware and it was not part of the problematic ones ... thankfully!

yes my giant towers are rear ported and they are 40cm from the wall behind them

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post #23 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by joker97 View Post



One additional note. The denon 789/1909 has a firmware bug relative to bass playback. You can go to that thread and read about it. But suffice it to say whan you play anything back on bluray, have the player decode and send the audio via pcm do not bitstream and let the denon decode. It has a bug which exaggerates the bass in bitstream mode. It is fixable, but unfortunately firmware updates have to be done at a service center. You might consider a newer networked denon in the future where firmware updates are done by the user.

I have this model but didn't know about this. If I set my dune media player to pcm do I lose any audio quality ?

How do I check ? Serial # ?
Thanks
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post #24 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1177104/warning-for-denon-owners-your-xx09-x89-avr-may-have-a-major-bug

my understanding is bitstream vs PCM is the same ... but better ask these dudes in the know

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post #25 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 03:42 AM
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I just googled it and no difference . Thanks for the link !
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post #26 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by joker97 View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1177104/warning-for-denon-owners-your-xx09-x89-avr-may-have-a-major-bug

my understanding is bitstream vs PCM is the same ... but better ask these dudes in the know

Yes, its the same quality. The only difference is who is doing the decoding the player or the reciever. For the 789 better to default to the player.
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post #27 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 09:15 AM
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I checked the firmware and it was not part of the problematic ones ... thankfully!

yes my giant towers are rear ported and they are 40cm from the wall behind them

That would seem to be far enough, but audyssey subtracting that much bass speaks to the speakers needing a little more room to breath per se from the wall. Either a bass trap behind the speaker on the wall or more room and recalibration w/ audyssey may improve performance even more.
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post #28 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post

Yes, its the same quality. The only difference is who is doing the decoding the player or the reciever. For the 789 better to default to the player.

Checked the firmware and I have the bug. I watch movies on my dune d1 media player. When I set audio to pcm I only.get.stereo sound. I don't get dts or dd . What am I doing wrong ?
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post #29 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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maybe your duned1 player can't send mutich pcm?

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post #30 of 32 Old 08-13-2013, 03:04 PM
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Just checked the dune forums.and it is able.but their is a bug in my.dune.model !!!! There is a workaround and I am applying the patch now. Jesus , I need the exterminators to get rid of all the bugs im my house !!!!
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