Vinyl ......... are you serious? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #91 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 03:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gerardo2068 View Post
If my receiver has a red and white rca input that says Phono. Does that means I have a preamp?

I have listen to vinyl in person but I don't know anything about the mechanics that makes it work.

And after reading this forums I'm afraid to give it a try. I will stay with with 16/44 files.
Generally, yes, a receiver with a labeled phono input will have a pre-amp built in (for moving magnet cartridges generally if just the one input).
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post #92 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post
I have been looking at all of the high end turntables being touted here and all around. They are masterpieces and just beauty to the eye.

So I got curious and set up my old Technics and spun an album.

Pop pop click click shhhhh pop pop click shhh.... and some music in the background.

You can't be serious people.

An old Technics turntable and some old scratchy record will do that.

Get serious.

If you want a high-performance car would you buy a 40-year old Pinto? If it wasn't worth spit, would you use that to condemn all cars as worthless?

That is ridiculous.

I have hundreds of LPs in good condition that sound great; some new and some I have had for 50 years.

But I'm not playing them on some old piece of junk, either.
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post #93 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
If you want a high-performance car would you buy a 40-year old Pinto? .
No way! I'd go for a Maverick with a stock 8-track player.
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post #94 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by audio2xs View Post
...
The sound quality in our video was average at best, could have originated from even a high-rate mp3. In fact, what we all heard was most probably a 192KHz AAC file, that's what YouTube does to audio. ...
All irrelevant. And my video sounds good, or as good as a YouTube video can sound. All he, or anyone, has to do is compare the original description to my video. If the OPs personal experience doesn't equal that, then he is in no position to judge what vinyl does or doesn't sound like.


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If you wanted to show how fantastic vinyl could sound on a modest system, why on earth would you use a camcorder mic? ....
Who says I'm trying to show how fantastic vinyl can sound?

I made a clear point to the Original Poster. That point was, his description of his experience was not typical of vinyl, and relative to his description, my video clearly established that.

I think the point I made was very clear ... to anyone willing to see it.

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post #95 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rongon View Post
What specs should people be looking for? How do you figure out if a given cartridge has high enough of an output to possibly overload a given phono stage?
--
You can find the specs on the output of most cartridges. For Moving Magnet (MM), the most common type, the output is about 5mv, though the range is about 3mv to perhaps 6mv.

A Moving Coil (MC) Cartridge is about 10 times lower than that, at about 0.5mv.

Though they do make MC-High Output cartridges that are compatible with MM inputs, they put out about 1.6mv.

MC tend to be expensive and are much more susceptible to Impedance and input capacitance matching that the far more common and much less expensive MM Cartridge. Though MM Cartridges can get quite expensive.

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post #96 of 154 Old 02-05-2015, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
MC {snip} are much more susceptible to Impedance and input capacitance matching that the far more common and much less expensive MM Cartridge.
Wrong. Because MM carts have a much higher inductance, they are more susceptible to response issues because of capacitance.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/c...e-loading.html
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post #97 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Wrong. Because MM carts have a much higher inductance, they are more susceptible to response issues because of capacitance.
Seems odd then that MC cartridge Pre-Amps have settable Capacitance and Impedance for MC the inputs but not for MM inputs.

Further, given that the output of an MC is TEN TIME lower than that of an MC, it would seem that such a small signal would be more susceptible to variations in things like impedance and capacitance.

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post #98 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 08:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Seems odd then that MC cartridge Pre-Amps have settable Capacitance and Impedance for MC the inputs but not for MM inputs.

Further, given that the output of an MC is TEN TIME lower than that of an MC, it would seem that such a small signal would be more susceptible to variations in things like impedance and capacitance.

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Yes, it is odd that a pre would set C and R for an MC input but let the MM go. That's just wrong.

Lower levels/small signals aren't what makes a system susceptible to loading issues, higher impedance is. A signal of any level is affected by load Z the same way if the signal's source Z hasn't changed. It's the RLC formale at work.
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post #99 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 08:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
An old Technics turntable and some old scratchy record will do that.

Get serious.

If you want a high-performance car would you buy a 40-year old Pinto? If it wasn't worth spit, would you use that to condemn all cars as worthless?

That is ridiculous.

I have hundreds of LPs in good condition that sound great; some new and some I have had for 50 years.

But I'm not playing them on some old piece of junk, either.
I don't think the age of the gear has as much effect as the condition of the gear, which means very little when compared to the condition of the record being played. Back in the day I had a Technics SP-10mkII mounted on a suspension system with 40lbs of steel, with an SME-III arm and a Shure V-15 V cartridge feeding a high-end preamp. It reproduced the pops clicks and hiss with amazing accuracy. In fact the only devices in the system that made any improvement to the noise was a Keith Monks record cleaning machine and a Burwen TNE-7000. If you don't have those, the record is what it is.

I ain't the gear, it's the record. My current gear is worth a tiny fraction of that system, sounds the same, and still plays a trashed record the same way: accurately with noise and all. 'Course I do still use the V15-V. And good, clean records sound like they should.
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post #100 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
When you view that youtube, you are listening to a digital file.

Besides, who in their right mind would think a low res youtube vid recorded through someones's camcorder mic could allow you to fairly assess the state of any system.




That YouTube video seems to demonstrate a certain amount of incognizance on the part of the producer. I'm surprised that an audiophile or wannabe would even attempt something like that unless of course the purpose was to show off the gear rather than the sound. Hilarious!
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post #101 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ameridian View Post



That YouTube video seems to demonstrate a certain amount of incognizance on the part of the producer. I'm surprised that an audiophile or wannabe would even attempt something like that unless of course the purpose was to show off the gear rather than the sound. Hilarious!
I have nothing to do with this thread but I have read it and this post of yours is nothing but straight up trolling. All you wanted to do was insult the poster who posted the video and I find that inappropriate.

He made his case very well with it.


You are not clever nor funny.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #102 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I have nothing to do with this thread but I have read it and this post of yours is nothing but straight up trolling. All you wanted to do was insult the poster who posted the video and I find that inappropriate.

He made his case very well with it.


You are not clever nor funny.

The YT video was "Published on Aug 17, 2012". This predates the OP, so this video wasn't made to rebut the "snap, crackle and pop" argument. If this video was made to demonstrate the capabilities of the system then my post is spot on. If this video was made to show off the gear then my post is also spot on.
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post #103 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ameridian View Post
The YT video was "Published on Aug 17, 2012". This predates the OP, so this video wasn't made to rebut the "snap, crackle and pop" argument. If this video was made to demonstrate the capabilities of the system then my post is spot on. If this video was made to show off the gear then my post is also spot on.
Yes the video was made to demonstrate my system. But it was posted here to illustrate to the original poster that HIS description of vinyl does not square with the experience of those who listen predominantly to vinyl.

I pointed out that my system was run-of-the-mill. I also pointed out that I was using a $178 turntable purchased in 1978. If his experience can't meet that low standard, then his experience is not representative.

And I posted IN THIS THREAD for one purpose, to point out to the Original Poster that his experience does not reflect the true quality of vinyl. I think my video does that in spades, especially given his original description of his experience.

My statement was simple enough for even a child to understand. If the OP's experience does not at least equal my video, then he doesn't know what vinyl can sound like and is in no position to make judgements on it.

Now, if it is as simply as he prefers digital music, in its many forms, I'm OK with that. I'm not saying he HAS TO listen to vinyl. I'm simply saying that he is in no position to make a judgement on it until he has a properly setup turntable in good repair with clean records.

Just because I didn't make the video to rebute the "snap, crackle and pop" argument doesn't mean it doesn't rebute that argument. I think it does it nicely.

Given that I know how good my video sounds, within the limits of YouTube, I find it hard to believe that those who are complaining about it actually listened to it.

The secret to making a fair sounding YouTube video is to simply keep the volume down to a reasonable level, which happens in about 1 out of every 100 audo related YouTube videos.

The video I posted very clearly and indisputable makes that point I was trying to make. If you can't see that, that is your failing.

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post #104 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
My statement was simple enough for even a child to understand. If the OP's experience does not at least equal my video, then he doesn't know what vinyl can sound like and is in no position to make judgements on it.
OTOH...
If I post a YT video of how great the PQ of my TV is ... everyone should go WOW!

It's YouTube...
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post #105 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 03:18 PM
 
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Yes, there's no argument that the snap crackle pop is always going to be there with vinyl, just part of the package. As to watching any video on my computer purporting to provide any information about a given system's audio quality, or a tv's picture quality, etc....I just don't waste my time because to me it's just silly.
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post #106 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 04:32 PM
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Bluewizard (aka blueboyblue), some friendly advice, delete that video or risk your credibility as an audiophile sinking even further down the tubes. Picture this....You're up for an "Audiophile Grand Master" position and your detractors get hold of that video, they'll have a field day.
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post #107 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Y... As to watching any video on my computer purporting to provide any information about a given system's audio quality, or a tv's picture quality, etc....I just don't waste my time because to me it's just silly.
I am absolutely stunned that even after explaining it multiple times, certain people are unable to comprehend what is going on and what is being said.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with me bragging about the quality of my system or my video.

It has everything to do with the Original Poster comparing his experience and his statements with my video, which regardless of all the flaws, still discredits the Original Posters statement.

If the Original Posters experience did not equal my video, as low of quality as it may be, then he is in no position to make a judgement about how vinyl can and does sound.

This is not rocket science. The OP can simply compare his experience to my video, and I think he will find what every single person who read his description already knows, that his system is flawed on some way. Bad Turntable, Dirty Records, etc....

I'm fine with the Original Poster not liking vinyl. More power to him. But, based on his description of vinyl, he hasn't heard vinyl, a point made by just about everyone who responded.

I simply took it one step farther and gave the OP something to compare his experience to. If his experience does not at least equal my very modest equipment in a compromised YouTube video, then he is in no position to pass judgement on what vinyl does or can sound like.

If a person can't get that very simply concept, then it seems a wonder that a person can even type on a keyboard without assistance.

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post #108 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ameridian View Post
Bluewizard (aka blueboyblue), some friendly advice, delete that video or risk your credibility as an audiophile sinking even further down the tubes...
It is not my fault that you are incapable of understanding what is going on. It has been clearly and repeatedly explained, if you still don't get it, then you are incapable of getting it.

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post #109 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 04:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I am absolutely stunned that even after explaining it multiple times, certain people are unable to comprehend what is going on and what is being said.

This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with me bragging about the quality of my system or my video.

It has everything to do with the Original Poster comparing his experience and his statements with my video, which regardless of all the flaws, still discredits the Original Posters statement.

If the Original Posters experience did not equal my video, as low of quality as it may be, then he is in no position to make a judgement about how vinyl can and does sound.

This is not rocket science. The OP can simply compare his experience to my video, and I think he will find what every single person who read his description already knows, that his system is flawed on some way. Bad Turntable, Dirty Records, etc....

I'm fine with the Original Poster not liking vinyl. More power to him. But, based on his description of vinyl, he hasn't heard vinyl, a point made by just about everyone who responded.

I simply took it one step farther and gave the OP something to compare his experience to. If his experience does not at least equal my very modest equipment in a compromised YouTube video, then he is in no position to pass judgement on what vinyl does or can sound like.

If a person can't get that very simply concept, then it seems a wonder that a person can even type on a keyboard without assistance.

Steve/bluewizard
You've explained it a few times too many now (here, let me put that in Steve You've Explained It A Few Times Too Many Now). Perhaps you took the OP simply too literally? OP hasn't been around for a while in any case.
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post #110 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 05:53 PM
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I fail to see what the problem with the video is. He was just showing that LPs are not necessary all snap crackle pop. Nothing about the actual quality.
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post #111 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
It is not my fault that you are incapable of understanding what is going on. It has been clearly and repeatedly explained, if you still don't get it, then you are incapable of getting it.

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post #112 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ameridian View Post
"YouTube Video of Roy Buchanan - A Street Called Straight"
Clearly and indisputable this is way over your head.

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post #113 of 154 Old 02-06-2015, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Clearly and indisputable this is way over your head.

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blueboyblue 2 years ago
"The bass comes off pretty good in this video, but on a test of the Camera microphone I discovered there is virtually no bass below 80hz from this camera. On other videos, the bass can barely be heard at all. I think I'm going to see if I can find a degree of bass boost that makes the videos sound close to what I hear in person."


Last edited by ameridian; 02-06-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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If in were in your shoes I'd be wonding why so many people missed my point.

But, I'll say this instead, you are The Wizard, we are all a bunch of dummies that couldn't get the point if we sat on it.

There. Now, hopefully, we all feel better, and can move on.
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post #115 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post
I have been looking at all of the high end turntables being touted here and all around. They are masterpieces and just beauty to the eye.

So I got curious and set up my old Technics and spun an album.

Pop pop click click shhhhh pop pop click shhh.... and some music in the background.

You can't be serious people.
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post

Curious, is that what your vinyl sounded like?

Because if it didn't, then you have no idea of what Vinyl can sound like.
Putting the video aside because that has created a mess (sorry, Steve, even though I know what you are trying to do, a computer is a terrible way to make that kind of point), both of these statements are true. An album can have those sounds that mhrischuk mentioned for lots of reasons. A new album will not have those. I think what Steve is saying is that if mhrischuk is using his collection as the definitive barometer of what vinyl sounds like he is missing what quality vinyl can really sound like. IOW, don't let that one experience cloud your judgment.
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post #116 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
Putting the video aside because that has created a mess (sorry, Steve, even though I know what you are trying to do, a computer is a terrible way to make that kind of point), both of these statements are true. An album can have those sounds that mhrischuk mentioned for lots of reasons. A new album will not have those. I think what Steve is saying is that if mhrischuk is using his collection as the definitive barometer of what vinyl sounds like he is missing what quality vinyl can really sound like. IOW, don't let that one experience cloud your judgment.
Why not just listen to cassette tapes or reel to reel?

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post #117 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
Putting the video aside because that has created a mess (sorry, Steve, even though I know what you are trying to do, a computer is a terrible way to make that kind of point), both of these statements are true. An album can have those sounds that mhrischuk mentioned for lots of reasons. A new album will not have those. I think what Steve is saying is that if mhrischuk is using his collection as the definitive barometer of what vinyl sounds like he is missing what quality vinyl can really sound like. IOW, don't let that one experience cloud your judgment.

Putting the video aside because that has created a mess (sorry, Steve, even though I know what you are trying to do, a computer is a terrible way to make that kind of point)

I think he used the video effectively to demonstrate that the "snap, crackle and pop" we all know exists with vinyl can be masked, provided signal levels are high enough. Someone from the digital camp could do something similar with a quiet passage from a vinyl classical recording to show how annoying vinyl noise can be. But that's not what the fracas associated with his video is about. He made that video long before this thread to demonstrate how well his system sounded, speakers and all. Using a mic to capture sound from one's speakers, in an attempt to convey to others what one is hearing in a room somewhere, indicates a basic misunderstanding of the fundamentals of audio and its capture. His frustration is readily apparent in this comment left by him with the video on YT;

"The bass comes off pretty good in this video, but on a test of the Camera microphone I discovered there is virtually no bass below 80hz from this camera. On other videos, the bass can barely be heard at all. I think I'm going to see if I can find a degree of bass boost that makes the videos sound close to what I hear in person."

Also, it appears that he still believes that most YT videos are made using speakers and mics. I tried my best to quietly indicate to him that while linking to that video does indeed rebut the OP, it's a pyrrhic victory, since the video itself opens a can of worms regarding his maturity as an audiophile. All I got back were insults.
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post #118 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 07:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post
Why not just listen to cassette tapes or reel to reel?
Cassettes and reel to reel tapes were typically created in one of two ways, either high-speed duplicated by the record company, or made by the consumer by copying his records. High-speed duplication is a study in sound degradation, no point in getting in deep here, but every dupe was at least two or three additional tape generations away from a master, cassette high-speed duplication didn't get really good until right around their demise. Duplicated reel-to-reel tapes died off as a consumer product in the late 1970s, so the quality never had the chance to get "good".

When a consumer copies his records to tape, he's still listening to records, so the same principles apply. Start with a brand-new record, it's as good as it can get. Worn records are copied with all their flaws intact. When you copy to tape you add more noise and distortion, but it's sometimes preferred over record wear and damage. You also take a hit in convenience.
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post #119 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post
Why not just listen to cassette tapes or reel to reel?
Listen to whatever you want to listen to.
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post #120 of 154 Old 02-07-2015, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Isn't vinyl a compressed version of the source?

I no longer own cassettes or vinyl. Strictly digital. Hate compressed mp3 or any other non-lossless compression.

Don't understand the point of multiK$$$ turntables.

See My System Here
Processor: Emotiva XMC-1
R/C/L Amps... (3) Emotiva XPR-1's (1750w x 3 = 5250w)
Surround Amps: Emotiva XPA-5 G2 (200 x 4 = 800w) not using 5th
Zone 2: Emotiva Mini-X a-100 driving 2 Boston Acoustics Voyager 70's
10050 watts total power.
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