Lossless Files vs. CD - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 09-14-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I don't know why you are excluding concert videos - you don't think they are music? ;-)

Amazon returns over 80,000 hits for "music DVD".

There are only 7,000 SACD releases per the last count I can find on the web.

DVD has had a lot more time to build up a library.

Ha ha... I completely expected a reply like that.

When I searched Amazon for "music DVD", I get a similar result, but I took the time to look at the results; can't see much I would buy. I buy a lot of music and have only a handful of DVDs in my collection. Most DVDs are compilations and greatest hits (e.g. '80s music samplers), documentaries on bands and, as I mentioned earlier, concerts (I have about 1/2 dozen of those).

Type in the following into Amazon's search field for "in Music" : dvd music classical. You get better filtering, but still lots of junk. I did find a couple of titles that I have on SACD, after some browsing; but they are the same price, so why prefer one over the other.

If you go to http://www.sa-cd.net/ and search on classical, of the roughly 8,500 SACD titles available, 5,700+ are classical, which is what I spend a lot of time listening to.

But, yes, all of the Baby Mozart DVDs you could ask for are waiting for you on Amazon. :-)

I completely expected a reply like that. Basically it reads "Yes, there are over 70,000 music DVDs, but not one of them suits my taste, while of the only 7,000 SACDs that exist, 100% are what I want". I get it. I expected it.
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post #32 of 59 Old 09-19-2013, 12:36 PM
 
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Why not just move the computer to another room and stream the music with WiFi?

Because I don't want to run a 50 foot long video cable halfway across the house.
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post #33 of 59 Old 09-19-2013, 04:20 PM
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Because I don't want to run a 50 foot long video cable halfway across the house.
What does wifi mean?
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post #34 of 59 Old 09-19-2013, 04:30 PM
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What does wifi mean?

It means that poster has been asleep for the last 12-15 years.
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post #35 of 59 Old 09-19-2013, 05:21 PM
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Only on the internet can you give free advice to someone who asks for it and then get criticized for the advice. I assume GTS left because he thought we were a bunch of know nothings. Ah well. Life goes on.
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post #36 of 59 Old 09-20-2013, 12:41 PM
 
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I wasn't criticizing FMW, but you and the 2 immature posters above you sure are.
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post #37 of 59 Old 09-20-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by gts007 View Post

I wasn't criticizing FMW, but you and the 2 immature posters above you sure are.

So, to recap, it was suggested you use a wireless solution and your response was to say you didn't want it because of a long wire and you're criticising us for pointing out that your reply was nonsensical?
What a maroon.
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post #38 of 59 Old 09-20-2013, 02:58 PM
 
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So, to recap, it was suggested you use a wireless solution and your response was to say you didn't want it because of a long wire and you're criticising us for pointing out that your reply was nonsensical?
What a maroon.

I wasn't aware that there is an adapter that enables you to wirelessly connect a video card to a monitor. My initial response was alittle tongue-in-cheek, yes, but I didn't know that your panties were going to get so bunched up over it. Have a nice day, lady.
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post #39 of 59 Old 09-20-2013, 03:41 PM
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Ah, ad homs. The true way to show one's maturity.
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post #40 of 59 Old 09-20-2013, 04:30 PM
 
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Ah, ad homs. The true way to show one's maturity.
you're one to talk..
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post #41 of 59 Old 09-22-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bad1978 View Post

I'm a newbie to all this, but I've become really obsessed with high-quality music for the last few months. Be gentle with me, as I may not understand a lot of the really esoteric techno-jargon.

So, I'm working with an LG BP730 Blu-Ray player and Pioneer VSX-1123 receiver.

It seems that no matter what, a ripped file just doesn't have the range as just playing the CD. Even if I play the WAV file straight from the USB port on the Blu-Ray player or the receiver. Apple Lossless files played straight from the receiver sound terrible (so much treble!)

Am I playing a losing game, here? Is it just impossible to accurately recreate CD sound on a computer file?


I would question what you're using to make the rips. Use something like Exact Audio Copy or dBpoweramp. These are secure rippers that will ensure you are getting a perfect copy of the CD.

That Pioneer receiver is supposed to be pretty good, so I doubt there is any jitter in your playback hardware.

That said, I have noticed that iTunes rips don't sound very good compared to the original CD or my rips made with EAC. The iTunes rips sound flat like all the life is sucked out of it.

I would try making a rip using Exact Audio Copy. You can set it up to rip to FLAC by using the Hydrogenaudio setup guide. Otherwise you can just rip straight to WAV and see how they sound played off of that USB drive.


In theory, a lossless file = source. I doubt your playback hardware is the issue. I'd say it's what you're using to make the rips.
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post #42 of 59 Old 09-22-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post

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Originally Posted by bad1978 View Post

I'm a newbie to all this, but I've become really obsessed with high-quality music for the last few months. Be gentle with me, as I may not understand a lot of the really esoteric techno-jargon.

So, I'm working with an LG BP730 Blu-Ray player and Pioneer VSX-1123 receiver.

It seems that no matter what, a ripped file just doesn't have the range as just playing the CD. Even if I play the WAV file straight from the USB port on the Blu-Ray player or the receiver. Apple Lossless files played straight from the receiver sound terrible (so much treble!)

Am I playing a losing game, here? Is it just impossible to accurately recreate CD sound on a computer file?


I would question what you're using to make the rips. Use something like Exact Audio Copy or dBpoweramp. These are secure rippers that will ensure you are getting a perfect copy of the CD.

I would question how he is doing the comparison. It is pretty difficult to do a level-matched, time-synched, blind test of these two particular things

If you question your rips, you do have some options. The basic technique is to do the ripping process twice, prefereably using two different means. Different software, a different PC. whatever. You can use a flash drive to get both ripped files onto the same PC, and then you can compare the two files using either FC which is part of many windows computers, or the file comparison utilities built into EAC or CDEX and possibly other software.

The basic idea is that the errors that come from a poor job of ripping tend to be random, so any consistent result is also probably a perfect result.
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That Pioneer receiver is supposed to be pretty good, so I doubt there is any jitter in your playback hardware.

Besides Jitter is not usually an issue when comparing a ripped file to the optical drive in a computer. The optical drive in a modern computer is essentially ripped to play the music on it.
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That said, I have noticed that iTunes rips don't sound very good compared to the original CD or my rips made with EAC. The iTunes rips sound flat like all the life is sucked out of it.

As you probably know, the big variable here is that most people who rip CDs with iTunes make lossy files, and lossy files particularly those at bitrates below 256k bits per second, can sound different because of problems with lossy compression at low bitrates.
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I would try making a rip using Exact Audio Copy. You can set it up to rip to FLAC by using the Hydrogenaudio setup guide. Otherwise you can just rip straight to WAV and see how they sound played off of that USB drive.


+1
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In theory, a lossless file = source. I doubt your playback hardware is the issue. I'd say it's what you're using to make the rips.

Or the parameters you choose. Unless you rip to a .wav file, audible differences due to procedureal choices are possible if not likely.
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post #43 of 59 Old 09-22-2013, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bad1978 View Post

Okay. I'm playing the CDs with my Blu Ray player and pumping the bitstream into my receiver via HDMI cable.

Both my Blu Ray player and my receiver have USB ports. When I play a file from either of these ports, they don't sound as good as the CD, especially an Apple Lossless file.

As for how I'm ripping the files, I'm using Windows Media Player for the WAVs and iTunes for the Apple Lossless.

@bad1987 - sorry this thread degenerated into soapboxing about perception bias.

However, I have a Pioneer VSX-1122-K (the generation before your own) and a Pioneer BD player (I have no experience with the LG BD player - sorry). I have noticed a similar issue with optical discs versus playing the lossless file on the AVR (in my case, a lossless encoding of the same CD with FLAC).

You have to really pay attention to the settings on your Pioneer AVR. The Pioneer AVRs have a number of parameters that will DRAMATICALLY change playback, such as "Sound Retriever", as well as the normal room correction algorithms (i.e. MCACC).

Try this: create an Apple Lossless recording of a CD you like (i.e. normal, 16-bit, 44.1 kHz), set the AVR for Airplay and playback directly via Airplay from your PC using iTunes. Make sure your AVR is set to "Pure Direct" (this will bypass almost all processing - no room correction or bass management). Then, repeat the same experiment from your BD player - make sure the BD player is set to Bitstream via HDMI (as you mention above) and, again, set the Pioneer AVR to "Pure Direct" for the Blu-ray input.

See if you can notice a difference with the above setup. Afterwards, you can play around with the various settings for movie/TV versus music playback, but start with Pure Direct everywhere as a baseline.

PM me if you need more help or visit the Pioneer owners thread(s) (there is a new one for 2013 AVRs) - the folks there are very helpful with AVR setup and using the various settings.

EDIT: oh, yeah... you can keep ripping with iTunes - it does just fine and you can enable error correction if you are worried about it.

"Play the volume as loud as you want - but don't touch my levels now. I got them set just like I like them"
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post #44 of 59 Old 09-23-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

@bad1987 - sorry this thread degenerated into soapboxing about perception bias.

They generally do on this forum...
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post #45 of 59 Old 09-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

@bad1987 - sorry this thread degenerated into soapboxing about perception bias.

They generally do on this forum...

Only happens when people who are in denial about expectation bias go on and on like it doesn't exist.
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post #46 of 59 Old 09-23-2013, 03:18 PM
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Only happens when people who are in denial about expectation bias go on and on like it doesn't exist.
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This research also suggests what many other types of research have, that the brain is not a passive recipient of sensory information. The brain builds or constructs models of reality based upon sensory information. However, this is a “thoughtful” process (to use the researcher’s words). The brain decides on what the most likely scenario is, based upon what sensory information it has and on various assumptions which are likely based on passed experience and its overall model of how reality works.
http://www.skepticblog.org/2013/09/23/body-image-and-giving-the-finger/#more-24441
So much for the reality of perceived reality....
Anybody who still maintains in the light of neuroscience that reality is what your brain tells you it is...is not only slightly mistaken. Your brain constructs a model of the world, and your perception biases are based on your belief system, information preferences, value judgement etc - they inform and help to construct this model.
The only way to a somewhat objective assessment of an item that influences sensory input is to remove the values that inform your biases - appearance, knowledge of price, manufacturer, etc.
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post #47 of 59 Old 09-23-2013, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only happens when people who are in denial about expectation bias go on and on like it doesn't exist.

Jesus, Arny... my reply to bad1987 has nothing to do with "perception bias" - my reply was a sincere attempt to help out. If you re-read my reply, the settings I describe are not subtle in the playback output differences they create - it's not "perception bias" - going from "Direct" to "Pure Direct" disables the subwoofer and room correction, as one example. Not that we will ever hear from bad1987 again...

But you know all this already; you just can't resist the opportunity to be a bully. Which is why you've been banned from other forums.

"Play the volume as loud as you want - but don't touch my levels now. I got them set just like I like them"
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post #48 of 59 Old 09-23-2013, 09:12 PM
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Which is why you've been banned from other forums.

If banned from forums when criticizing all kind of subjectivist crap presented without any testable evidence - I call that a badge of honour. I was honoured the same way.
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post #49 of 59 Old 09-24-2013, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

Jesus, Arny... my reply to bad1987 has nothing to do with "perception bias" - my reply was a sincere attempt to help out. If you re-read my reply, the settings I describe are not subtle in the playback output differences they create - it's not "perception bias" - going from "Direct" to "Pure Direct" disables the subwoofer and room correction, as one example. Not that we will ever hear from bad1987 again...

But you know all this already; you just can't resist the opportunity to be a bully. Which is why you've been banned from other forums.

Having read this entire thread I don't think Arnyk was bullying. Yes, he can seem a bit crabby at times, but I imagine it can get a bit frustrating when such detailed and compelling arguments (which he provides on countless threads here in 2-channel, and often with interesting and relevant links) seem to do little to change someones mind without any equally compelling counter-arguement offered.

So, while you might think Arnyk deserves to be reprimanded, I personally think the guy should be thanked for his persistence and for making AVS way more informative and interesting. ..And I say this even though I've been the brunt of his ascerbic comments (as you can imagine, he's not particularly approving of buying a brand new McIntosh integrated amp for $6000 when it lacks room correction, onboard DACs, and sounds no better than a $400 AVR).

Personally, I think people need to be less thin-skinned. ..This forum will devolve into a worthless wasteland of groupthink if we scare away all those with very strong opinions.
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post #50 of 59 Old 09-24-2013, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Krutsch View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only happens when people who are in denial about expectation bias go on and on like it doesn't exist.

Jesus, Arny... my reply to bad1987 has nothing to do with "perception bias" - my reply was a sincere attempt to help out. If you re-read my reply, the settings I describe are not subtle in the playback output differences they create - it's not "perception bias" - going from "Direct" to "Pure Direct" disables the subwoofer and room correction, as one example. Not that we will ever hear from bad1987 again...

But you know all this already; you just can't resist the opportunity to be a bully. Which is why you've been banned from other forums.

Please name them.
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post #51 of 59 Old 09-24-2013, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Only happens when people who are in denial about expectation bias go on and on like it doesn't exist.

Jesus, Arny... my reply to bad1987 has nothing to do with "perception bias" - my reply was a sincere attempt to help out.

I get that you might be sincere, but that doesn't mean that you are always right.
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If you re-read my reply, the settings I describe are not subtle in the playback output differences they create - it's not "perception bias" - going from "Direct" to "Pure Direct" disables the subwoofer and room correction, as one example.

I read your post carefully and it was a mix of things that can make a reliably audible difference such as the one you just mentioned, and other things.

I don't think I even replied to your post that had actual technical comment what you think is audible. So here you are faulting me for something that I never did.
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Not that we will ever hear from bad1987 again...

That's a choice he gets to make.
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But you know all this already; you just can't resist the opportunity to be a bully.

Apparently, you seem to doubt my sincerity. I'm willing to say that you are sincere, but for some reason you seem to feel a need to go down this road.
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Which is why you've been banned from other forums.

You seem to have jumped from my simple sincere comment that didn't even single out you, to all out war complete with harmful and untrue statements.
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post #52 of 59 Old 09-24-2013, 05:44 AM
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To Arny's defense, he not a bully nor is he crabby. He is a straight shooter with no pretenses and no propensity to sugar coat what he says. That is really refreshing to me. I find his posts to be very consistent and way, way more accurate than most on this forum. He's trying to help but, at the same time, he's trying to get the subjective audiophiles on a 12 step program. He means well. Just read what he says. Don't read things into it.
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post #53 of 59 Old 09-24-2013, 07:41 AM
 
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I don't think Arnyk was bullying.
He was, to those who have a different definition of such word, the one that they imagined. Just like the audiophile myths, someone starts and then it spreads through those who follow mindlessly.
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post #54 of 59 Old 09-25-2013, 07:28 AM
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Download EAC, make a rip with some songs to WAV, and then do some rips with iTunes into Apple Lossless.

Have a friend mix up the tracks into a random order, don't let yourself see or know which is which. But have a friend number them and write down which one is in which format.

Put them on the USB drive.

Test and see if you can tell the difference.

I have done this test in the past and I could not tell the difference.
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post #55 of 59 Old 09-25-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post

Download EAC, make a rip with some songs to WAV, and then do some rips with iTunes into Apple Lossless.

Have a friend mix up the tracks into a random order, don't let yourself see or know which is which. But have a friend number them and write down which one is in which format.

Put them on the USB drive.

Test and see if you can tell the difference.

I have done this test in the past and I could not tell the difference.
I'm sure he could not tell the difference between wav and alac from being played from the same usb port using the same software to play them. But I think that there's more things involved. First, at least I, we don't know exactly how he had setup the connections and how are using the equipment. For example I don't get if he is streaming thru the usb port or if he's using a usb flash drive, or which program he's using to playback, probably is playing the wavs with WMP and the alac in iTunes. What I suggested is the way that has worked for me to get cd quality from flac files played straight from my computer: (1)use a OS or drivers or tweaking program that allows your computer work in real time play back or the lowest latency possible, (2) use a low resources player, (3) use an external DAC.
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post #56 of 59 Old 09-26-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post

Download EAC, make a rip with some songs to WAV, and then do some rips with iTunes into Apple Lossless.

Have a friend mix up the tracks into a random order, don't let yourself see or know which is which. But have a friend number them and write down which one is in which format.

Put them on the USB drive.

Test and see if you can tell the difference.

I have done this test in the past and I could not tell the difference.

Basically good advice.

The true pro way to compare files like this is to download a copy of the freeware FooBar 2000 music player along with the ABX plug-in. This gives you time-synching which can be a tremendous boost for your ability to reliably hear differences. It also keeps score and does the statistical analysis for you.

http://www.foobar2000.org/
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post #57 of 59 Old 09-26-2013, 12:44 PM
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Only on the internet can you give free advice to someone who asks for it and then get criticized for the advice. I assume GTS left because he thought we were a bunch of know nothings. Ah well. Life goes on.

hey speak for yourself...my wife will tell you that I know $hit monday through friday and twice on the weekends. I have no clue how I've made it this far without her.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #58 of 59 Old 09-26-2013, 01:41 PM
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hey speak for yourself...my wife will tell you that I know $hit monday through friday and twice on the weekends. I have no clue how I've made it this far without her.

James

LOL. Lucky my wife has no interest in electronics, my Mustang, and is happy to ride b*tch on the bike. God love her though, she is learning minor maintenance on her truck and keeps it clean (and it's a manual on the floor on top of that.)

¿lɐɯɹou ǝq ʎɥʍ

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post #59 of 59 Old 09-26-2013, 03:11 PM
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...........or the 'net Ha Ha!

¿lɐɯɹou ǝq ʎɥʍ

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