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post #1 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been into home theater for quite some time and somewhat know the ins and outs to an extent. Enough to know what to look for when purchasing gear at least.

I've been wanting to do a vinyl only stereo set-up in my bed room for some time.

Working from a roughly $2000 budget are there any suggestions you guys could give me on gear?

Vintage equipment is definitely something I would consider also, I think that would be cool to have an all vintage setup.
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post #2 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 04:50 PM
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I don't really have any suggestions for you, I just wanted to say that I hope you'll update us with your progress as you go, cause I've been considering the very same thing for a couple years now.
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post #3 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 06:39 PM
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I'd start by looking for a second-hand Technics SL-1200 table. If at all possible, get one that hasn't been used as a DJ table. (They were very popular among DJs, but they are also a very fine table for home use.) You won't find anything else to compare. If it needs a bit of a tune-up, check out www.kabusa.com, pretty much your go-to source for all things 1200.

Beyond that,the usual advice applies: Speakers and room trump everything else.

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post #4 of 33 Old 11-10-2013, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks man. Is there a certain cartridge that works well with that turn table?
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post #5 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Thanks man. Is there a certain cartridge that works well with that turn table?

The Shure M97xe is very compatible with a wide range of turntable/arms.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=shure+m97xe&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ashure+m97xe
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post #6 of 33 Old 11-11-2013, 08:22 AM
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I run three turntables with the denon DL series, 110 and 103.
Very flat frequency response and decent distortion figures.
Quote:
Specifications DL 110

Generating method: moving coil
Output voltage: 1.6mV
L/R sensitivity: within 1dB
L/R separation: more than 25dB
Electrical impedance: 160 ohms
Stylus tip: 0.1 x 0.2mm special elliptical diamond
Stylus force: 1.8g (+-0.3g)
Frequency range: 20Hz to 45kHz
Weight: 4.8g
Load resistance: more than 47kOhms

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/denon/dl-110.shtml
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Denon DL-103 Phono Cartridge Specifications
- Type: Moving coil
- Output voltage: 0.3mV
- Frequency response: 20Hz-45kHz
- Output impedance: 40 ohms
- Channel balance @ 1kHz: < 1db
- Channel separation @ 1kHz: 25dB
- Stylus tip: 0.2 mm special round solid diamond
- Compliance: 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne
- Recommended tracking force: 2.5 +/- 0.3g
- Color: Black
- Weight: 8.5 g
- Recommended load resistance: 100 ohms or more
http://www.lpgear.com/product/DENONDL103.html

The 110 is a high output MC cartridge that just needs a MM phono amp.
The DL 103 needs a MC phono amp.
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post #7 of 33 Old 11-12-2013, 02:41 AM
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I concur with the Technics suggestion, great table. I bought my 1200mk2 new some 25 years ago and it's doing just fine still. I've used a few different cartridges with it, last two have been Grados. I don't think I'd want one in the bedroom, though, I'd probably fall asleep and leave it running all night....smile.gif

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post #8 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I've got the turn table and cartridge understood. Now can someone explain the pre amp or phono preamp? Which one do I need and how important are they for affecting sound quality?
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post #9 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:10 PM
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Cartridges need help to boost their signal to normal line-level input is one way to think about it; thus you need an outboard phono pre-amp if your avr or pre-amp doesn't have the specific type of preamp (and eq) needed for a phono input. Part of the pre-amp is an applied equalization (the RIAA equalization) due to the way vinyl is recorded....try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization. There is a difference between the needed preamplification between a moving coil and a moving magnet cartridge generally (see Kraut's example above). Most phono preamps built into avr's/pre-amps are for moving magnet, some have both.

ps Be prepared to seriously isolate your turntable if you indeed have ten ton bass smile.gif

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post #10 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. Well I am looking at going seperates.
So do I need a phono preamp and preamp before the amp or just the phono preamp?
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post #11 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Thanks man. Is there a certain cartridge that works well with that turn table?

The Shure M97xe is very compatible with a wide range of turntable/arms.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=shure+m97xe&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ashure+m97xe

+1

I have one in my Phillips GA-312 TT and it sounds great. Best cartridge I've owned under
$100. I had a Bang & Olufsen MMC 10E cartridge before the Shure and it didn't sound any better than the Shure. And the B&O 10E has a fixed stylus which made it a throwaway once it wore out. Or I could get it rebuilt.

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #12 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Ok. Well I am looking at going seperates.
So do I need a phono preamp and preamp before the amp or just the phono preamp?

Generally you need the phono preamp to go into your main pre-amp unless you want no control over the volume/tone (my ART phono plus has a gain control but no tone/eq control and a 1.4v output so I suppose it could go directly to an amp with some control over volume but I wouldn't as I like to process the signal in my main pre-amp). So phono pre-amp specific, I only have the ART device....

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post #13 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Ok. Well I am looking at going seperates.
So do I need a phono preamp and preamp before the amp or just the phono preamp?
Here's the whole chain:

Cartridge=>Tonearm=>Turntable=>Phono preamp=>Preamp=>Amp=>Speakers

Now, separates can mean many things. Many preamps (and integrated amps, and even some receivers) have a phono pre built in. My advice would be to go for a more integrated approach. Separates just aren't very economical, and they don't really provide any sound-quality advantage. An integrated amp with a phono stage, or even one that requires a separate phono pre, would leave you more $$$ for the turntable rig and speakers, which are more critical to sound quality.
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post #14 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok. Sounds good. I found a cool website called www.stereoclassics.com and they seem to have a lot of vintage gear that looks nice. So I guess I'm gonna look for an integrated amp with phono preout on it.
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post #15 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Ok. Sounds good. I found a cool website called www.stereoclassics.com and they seem to have a lot of vintage gear that looks nice. So I guess I'm gonna look for an integrated amp with phono preout on it.

That site you linked is awful, not even a real site for audio gear....more like one of those sites you get when you misstype a URL. You're probably better off with craigslist or other classifieds like here at avsforum or even audiogon. Where are you located?

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post #16 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Whoops I meant www.soundsclassic.com
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post #17 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

So I guess I'm gonna look for an integrated amp with phono preout on it.

I think you need a preamp with a built-in phono stage, meaning the preamp will have a phono input on the back and a phono selection on the front. Separate phono preamps are common nowadays, because most receivers and A/V preamps are loaded with digital and line-level inputs but lack phono stages. Built-in phono stages used to be the norm, and that's what you should seek out.
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post #18 of 33 Old 11-14-2013, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
So I guess I'm gonna look for an integrated amp with phono preout on it.
You mean a phono input.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #19 of 33 Old 11-15-2013, 03:09 AM
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The outfit you linked looks good. What is important is that they have recapped these units. That means that they have replaced aged capacitors in the circuits and it is capacitors that die from old age. On his integrated amp page I would recommend the Kenwood unit on the bottom of the page. Most of the others are overpriced or have something else about them that bothers me. The Kenwood has not just 1 phono input but two of them. You could buy that unit for about $100 so you are paying for the recapping which is well worth it. Be sure you buy a moving magnet cartridge for your turntable, not a moving coil. The Shure that Arny recommends is such a cartridge. I'm partial to the Grado carts which are also moving magnets.
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post #20 of 33 Old 11-15-2013, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
. Be sure you buy a moving magnet cartridge for your turntable, not a moving coil. The Shure that Arny recommends is such a cartridge.
.
The only reason I can think of not using hi-out MCs i the stylus that is non replaceable; maybe good for a beginner with clutzy fingers..
Quote:
That means that they have replaced aged capacitors in the circuits and it is capacitors that die from old age.

I still run a quad 405/33 amp/preamp with original caps. No problems. I have several other vintage integrated and power amps that run fine without recapping.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NAD-302-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier-/221314680335?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item338762060f
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Technics-SU-V6-Integrated-Preamp-Amp-Amplifier-Class-A-Silver-Face-Tech-Serviced-/331065725110?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item4d150e10b6
technics built some great stuff.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/AUDIOLAB-8000A-STEREO-INTEGRATED-AMPLIFIER-60-60-watts-/350918238339?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item51b45b6083

Just a few examples.
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post #21 of 33 Old 11-16-2013, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I see a lot of these integrated amps have very modest power ratings. Which makes sense if compare them to the speakers that were out at that given time. I'm just curious how they fare driving a more modern tower full range speaker. Most rated at well over 200 wpc.
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post #22 of 33 Old 11-16-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
I see a lot of these integrated amps have very modest power ratings. Which makes sense if compare them to the speakers that were out at that given time.
No. There were modestly rated because it was expensive to produce a lot of power.
Quote:
I'm just curious how they fare driving a more modern tower full range speaker. Most rated at well over 200 wpc.
First of all, modern speakers are not necessarily any more difficult to drive than the old ones were. Quite possibly the reverse.

And "rated at well over 200 wpc"? That doesn't even mean anything.

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post #23 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Speakers that can handle well over 200 wpc.
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post #24 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

.
The only reason I can think of not using hi-out MCs i the stylus that is non replaceable; maybe good for a beginner with clutzy fingers..

Inadequate output for a MM input and hence more noise? An overly laid back sound? Less dynamic range? Actually it is a matter of preference. I have yet to year a moving coil cartridge that I preferred to a Grado MM. I've owned and used dozens of cartridges over the years including about 8 or 10 MC's. To this day I continue to use Grados.

Quote:
I still run a quad 405/33 amp/preamp with original caps. No problems. I have several other vintage integrated and power amps that run fine without recapping.

So because of your experience with one unit you don't recommend recapping?
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post #25 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass View Post

Speakers that can handle well over 200 wpc.

Why would you think you need that? In my system I've never measured more than 18 watts at the speakers. You might damage your hearing by applying 200 watts to your speakers.
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post #26 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
So because of your experience with one unit you don't recommend recapping?
Learn to read.

I did not recommend anything, I just stated my experience.
I said I own several vintage amps/receivers (including some Pioneer, Hafler, Technics, Rotel) that are un-recapped and perform well.

I have compared the high out Denon DL 110 directly with a Denon DL 103 and find no difference in the tonal qualities.
I have build myself a two input phono preamp with input transformers for MC and can directly compare the sound. It was a bit tricky to synchronise the TT speed. One cartidge was mounted on a SME 3 arm, the other on an airbearing arm MG 1, both on Thorens TD 125 tables.

I don't know for the life of me what the idiotic audiophile term "laid back" has to do in assessing sound quality.

I find both Denons extremely accurate, and with less distortion on single signals as the MM's i have used: Shure V15 V, the Goldring 1042, Shure Ultra 500, Shure M97, etc.
I also checked the FR of a 20 - 20kHz signal on the 1/3 octave RTA of the behringer DEQ 24/96 and found that the response is almost flat from 20 - 20kHz on pink noise with only minor drop a the 20kHz end..

After going through over ten different cartridges over the last fifteen years (I got back into vinyl in 1998 when I had my Transcriptor shipped to Canada form the storage in Germany), trying anything from Ortofon to the systems mentioned and finally whittled it down to the Denon DL 160 on the Transcriptors with an SME 2 arm, and the Denon DL 110 and 103 on the two Thorens tables.
I also run a Technics SL10 linear tracker with its original Cartridge EPS-310MC using the internal preamp that boost the signal for MM inputs.
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post #27 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenTonBass 
I see a lot of these integrated amps have very modest power ratings. Which makes sense if compare them to the speakers that were out at that given time. I'm just curious how they fare driving a more modern tower full range speaker. Most rated at well over 200 wpc.

You're looking at the wrong spec. A speaker's maximum power-handling spec is almost meaningless, not unless you're abusing them with massive continuous power. I don't even know the power-handling ratings of my speakers (B&W 700-series), and I don't care.

You need to look at sensitivity. Most modern tower speakers have a sensitivity of around 90 dB at one meter distance at one watt input. Sometimes higher. (It's actually at a 2.83-volt input, because the spec is normalized to 8 ohms, but "one meter at one watt" is easier to remember.) And larger speakers are almost always more sensitive (meaning louder) than bookshelf-sized speakers.

Since sensitivity ratings are commonly in the 90-ish range, this tells you that a modestly powerful amplifier can drive most modern tower speakers to fairly high levels (easily over 100 dB) in most rooms with most material. It's just math; it has nothing to do with vintage.




.
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post #28 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraut View Post

Learn to read.

I did not recommend anything, I just stated my experience.
.

Oh my! A personal attack. Hate to tell you but when I suggest to someone that there is value in buying vintage gear that has been recapped and you come right in to tell the group unit works without ever being recapped you are, in effect, recommending against it. I can read just fine. Thanks for the insult. Let me know if you ever need to know why buying old gear that has been recapped is a good idea and why buying old gear on ebay is a crapshoot.
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post #29 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 12:07 PM
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Never mind. I'll let it go.
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post #30 of 33 Old 11-17-2013, 12:11 PM
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Maybe you should re-read those posts. While the 'learn to read' crack may not have been the best way to phrase it he never said buying a recapped piece of gear is a great option - or the best option - just that uncapped gear he owns works great. I have both - and the only reason for that is some times caps go bad.

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