Newbie in need of turntable advice w/ current setup - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 12-19-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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So I just purchased the Pro-ject Debut III as my first turntable. I wanted something that was somewhat entry level, and decided to go with this one after doing a ton of research. Right now I currently have a Pioneer Elite VSX-92 receiver and a full 5.1 Definitive Technology in wall / ceiling system. 3 UIW RCS II's in the front, two UIW RSS II's in the rear and a supercube III. I've read a lot of stuff talking about the need for a separate phono preamp, but on the back of my receiver there is a phono input. I was just wondering if for the time being this will be sufficient. My goal is to get the turntable going and then little by little start doing upgrades. I still feel I have a lot to learn before jumping into anything else at the moment. Also if anyone is familiar with these speakers / receiver, how do you think the turntable will sound with this setup. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

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post #2 of 14 Old 12-19-2013, 01:04 PM
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Not only will it be sufficient in the short run but in the long run as well. The 92's phono section is designed for a moving magnet cartridge so be sure that's what you mount on your tonearm.
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post #3 of 14 Old 12-19-2013, 01:48 PM
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Your lucky you saved some money w/a built in phono. It will basically be just as good as any entry level out there. W/a new cart you'll probably will need around 40 hours of playing before the cart fully breaks in. smile.gif
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post #4 of 14 Old 12-20-2013, 09:09 AM
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The phono stage in a AV receiver is often a cheap low-quality one, but not always.

It would be helpful to make a direct comparison between an outboard one and the one you have, if a friend has one or whatever.

Cambridge Audio and Pro-ject have good ones for around $150. Needle Doctor and Music Direct sell most of the ones that are available. Musical Fidelity makes an outstanding one for around $200.

Most inwall/in-ceiling speakers have mediocre to poor sound quality, even compared to modestly-priced conventional speakers, so you could certainly make major improvements there.

I recommend that everyone read the Wikipedia entry "RIAA EQualization". It is an excellent discussion if how records are made and mastered, and few people really understand the details.

Many phono preamp circuits use simple filters that only approximate the needed equalization curve, and you end up with poor sound quality due to phase errors and an inaccurate EQ curve.
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post #5 of 14 Old 12-20-2013, 09:30 AM
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The RIAA standard has been around for well over 50 years that I know of. As with a DAC it seems to be a mystery about just what goes on inside the phono circuitry. This is what it should do.

It isn't rocket science - just a matter of following that curve. And all but a very few do so very well. No magic - just follow the curve. As simple as a DAC - and been around much longer. It probably isn't necessary to get an external phono section. Especially if you already have something built in.
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post #6 of 14 Old 12-20-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The phono stage in a AV receiver is often a cheap low-quality one, but not always.

The phono stage in the Pioneer 92 is just fine. How do I know? I own one.
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post #7 of 14 Old 12-20-2013, 11:50 AM
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It depends on how well the RIAA curve is done (frequency response), my Sony pre-amp sounds like crap, but my Technics sounds good. IMO once the 90's came Phono pre-amps were more or less an after thought, while receivers from the 70's and 80's had really good phono stages because that was the primary format.

Vinyl is a harsh world to get into because you will always want to get something better. I bought a turntable now I want to upgrade the cartridge, then I'll probably want a tube pre-amp rolleyes.gif Being an audiophile is an expensive hobby, I've spent close to $400 on used equipment and I'm saving up for a pair of Thiel speakers that cost $300.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."
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post #8 of 14 Old 12-20-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

Being an audiophile is an expensive hobby, .

It is an endless treadmill. Been there, done that. It is always sad for me to see people get caught up in it.
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post #9 of 14 Old 12-21-2013, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

It depends on how well the RIAA curve is done (frequency response), my Sony pre-amp sounds like crap, but my Technics sounds good. IMO once the 90's came Phono pre-amps were more or less an after thought, while receivers from the 70's and 80's had really good phono stages because that was the primary format.

Vinyl is a harsh world to get into because you will always want to get something better. I bought a turntable now I want to upgrade the cartridge, then I'll probably want a tube pre-amp rolleyes.gif Being an audiophile is an expensive hobby, I've spent close to $400 on used equipment and I'm saving up for a pair of Thiel speakers that cost $300.
Thiel speakers for $300. What model? That seems like a real steal.smile.gif
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post #10 of 14 Old 12-21-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class A View Post

Thiel speakers for $300. What model? That seems like a real steal.smile.gif

Thiel 1.2. My friend has the same pair of speakers running on a NAD 3140 sounds absolutely amazing. Those speakers are the basic two way speakers, they don't have much bass so I would still have to use my powered sub woofer.

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post #11 of 14 Old 12-21-2013, 11:14 PM
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Nice speakers. I had 2.3's a few years ago. Excellent mid-range and open top end. Just a little info: if you need the speakers fixed down the road Thiel carries parts for every model they ever made. They also do restoration work on the speaker cabinets too. Enjoy the speakers.smile.gif
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post #12 of 14 Old 12-22-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class A View Post

Nice speakers. I had 2.3's a few years ago. Excellent mid-range and open top end. Just a little info: if you need the speakers fixed down the road Thiel carries parts for every model they ever made. They also do restoration work on the speaker cabinets too. Enjoy the speakers.smile.gif

Thanks, I haven't purchased the speakers yet since I need to upgrade the stereo in my car first.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."
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post #13 of 14 Old 12-28-2013, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the advice. Sorry for the late reply guys, been so busy with the holidays and everything. I got the turntable all set up and running smoothly. I gotta say, there really is something special and unique when it comes to playing vinyl. Everything sounds amazing with the exception of some random static. I was wondering if this is normal or if maybe I didn't do something right. I know this may be prevalent with older records, but should this be true for new stuff as well? I have played a few older used records in alright shape, as well as some brand new stuff. 

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post #14 of 14 Old 12-28-2013, 06:51 AM
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Actually, the RIAA equalization "curve" is not all that simple. Read the Wikipedia entry "RIAA Equalization" for a better understanding. It is precisely defined; no mystery at all!

In the beginning of LPs, in the 1940s, each company (Columbia, EMI, Decca, etc.) had their own equalization curve. The better phonographs would have a 4 or 5-position switch to select the right one.

This was chaotic, so the RIAA was formed by the industry to standardize the mess with one standard curve in the early 1950s. By the time stereo LPs first appeared in 1958, the RIAA curve was almost universal.

The slope is actually different for different frequency ranges. That's one reason why the quality of the phono preamps varies so much. There are cheap one-chip solutions, but they don't do the best job.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

The RIAA standard has been around for well over 50 years that I know of. As with a DAC it seems to be a mystery about just what goes on inside the phono circuitry. This is what it should do.

It isn't rocket science - just a matter of following that curve. And all but a very few do so very well. No magic - just follow the curve. As simple as a DAC - and been around much longer. It probably isn't necessary to get an external phono section. Especially if you already have something built in.
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