Eliminating hum on a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Turntable - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 176 Old 02-03-2015, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a more elegant play on the famous oldie but goodie called the Dust Bug.

For all I know may still be available today.

I think I need to get one of these for my daughter because, unlike me, she is very bad about properly cleaning her vinyl before playing.

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post #152 of 176 Old 02-03-2015, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
That's a more elegant play on the famous oldie but goodie called the Dust Bug.

For all I know may still be available today.

I think I need to get one of these for my daughter because, unlike me, she is very bad about properly cleaning her vinyl before playing.

I think this might be the original Dust Bug! Just a brush on an arm, two weights , a height adjustment and a ground wire. Thought it might have a noticeable negative effect on the TT speed or performance, but none that I can hear. Liking it so far...
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post #153 of 176 Old 02-04-2015, 04:45 PM
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gajCA

Your efforts and those who added in their solutions are what makes the internet worthwhile.

I think I may have grounding issues also but will head to HD tomorrow and install your solution as well as change over the RCA cables.

Best wishes
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post #154 of 176 Old 02-04-2015, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by listen2silence View Post
gajCA

Your efforts and those who added in their solutions are what makes the internet worthwhile.

I think I may have grounding issues also but will head to HD tomorrow and install your solution as well as change over the RCA cables.

Best wishes
Please keep us posted.

It's nice that now there are three cheap MaGiver "solutions" that have worked for many, from three different members.

I've gotten good info on AVS, especially when it comes to pleasing picture settings for TV's.
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post #155 of 176 Old 02-05-2015, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Please keep us posted.

It's nice that now there are three cheap MaGiver "solutions" that have worked for many, from three different members.

I've gotten good info on AVS, especially when it comes to pleasing picture settings for TV's.
Success. I pulled the turntable out of the cabinet to allow for easy access (I'm sure many of you would cringe if you saw this 'cargo trunk' designed av cabinet we have ... my wife said it had good juju .... whatever).

As someone suggested, I adjusted the motor-mount screws while the motor was running and it really does help in fine-tuning. At first there was still some resonance depending on where the dust cover was positioned; if it was up 90 degrees everything was fine, but anything else and it vibrated. Tried the paper towel on the corners but there was no change. I then recalled that I had a nice laminated piece of plywood and on a hunch placed it under the turntable and re-leveled it. The plywood cancelled out the resonance of the lid and now everything is A-OK.

Many thanks to all who contributed to this thread, and especially the OP for sharing in the first place and keeping everything updated.
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post #156 of 176 Old 02-12-2015, 08:49 AM
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So, I had a bit of trouble eliminating the hum on my Debut Carbon DC. I first tried removing the motor mount screws, but that made the hum worse. Then I tried using the neoprene washer method, but I found that the vibration was transferred to the plinth, and the motor hum was audible by putting my ear near the turntable. It did cut down on the motor hum through the speakers, but it didn't eliminate it.

However, after a lot of fiddling, I went back to removing the motor mount screws, and then adjusting the belt to make sure it was centered in between the top and bottom flange, and not touching either one. This seems to have completely eliminated the problem, as I think the free hanging motor, although you can feel it vibrating when you touch it, doesn't transfer that vibration unless the belt is touching the flanges. Still frustrating to have to do all this fiddling on a $450 turntable, but everything seems good for now, and it does sound pretty great!
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post #157 of 176 Old 02-12-2015, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sam V. View Post
adjusting the belt to make sure it was centered in between the top and bottom flange, and not touching either one.
Can you provide a picture for clarification?

Interesting, I thought the DC was the factory solution for the hum issue but evidently not.
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post #158 of 176 Old 02-12-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Can you provide a picture for clarification?

Interesting, I thought the DC was the factory solution for the hum issue but evidently not.
I made a little graphic for this, hopefully this makes things more clear. I will say that the hum wasn't particularly BAD with the DC (I don't have a frame of reference to compare it to the regular carbon, but based on what I've seen on youtube etc., it's not as bad right out of the box), but that it was noticeable if you listened close, which was a bit annoying given the cost of the table.
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post #159 of 176 Old 02-12-2015, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam V. View Post
I made a little graphic for this, hopefully this makes things more clear. I will say that the hum wasn't particularly BAD with the DC (I don't have a frame of reference to compare it to the regular carbon, but based on what I've seen on youtube etc., it's not as bad right out of the box), but that it was noticeable if you listened close, which was a bit annoying given the cost of the table.
Very clear illustration.

Thanks.

I have added your suggestion to the very first post in this thread.

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post #160 of 176 Old 02-23-2015, 07:28 AM
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After all the hum talk I was worried about this turntable. I purchased the DC version for my daughter for Christmas and it is absolutely silent and sounds great.
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post #161 of 176 Old 02-23-2015, 07:34 AM
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Thumbs up

Also want to add that this is with high efficiency speakers and the turntable is completely silent even with ears right up to drivers.
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post #162 of 176 Old 03-21-2015, 04:03 PM
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Project Carbon Debut Tuning by ear

So I got a Project Debut Carbon black turntable. First impressions good, but then I heard the HUM. I went googling, and found this thread.

The problem seemed to be a big mechanically made harmonic at 240 Hz. At that high a frequency, it's really quite audible.

I tried the neoprene washers under a fender washer. It didn't seem to work. So I loosened it a bit...it seemed promising.

It seemed like it would just be way too painful to tweak and pull the platter 47 times, so I played a bit, and I noticed that it seemed plausible to tune the system by ear with the platter off.

As I searched through a reasonable range of tightness in the screws/fender washer/neoprene washer, I could here places where the motor sputtered and buzzed. Various sounds like soft trombones with various degrees and types of muting.

As I searched, I found places that seemed very quiet compared to others, and some that were quite noisy. So, somewhere between loosey goosey and snug, I found a place where everything got quiet.

I popped the platter back on, and measured the noise spectrum on a quiet groove. The 240 Hz harmonic had almost totally vanished.

The three pictures are
  1. quiet groove spectrum stock mounting arrangement
  2. quiet groove spectrum with screw/fender-washer/2 neoprene washers too tight.
  3. quiet groove spectrum as above, but tuned by ear for least sound
It was kind of amazing that the ear tuning followed through to the huge improvement.


So...I'm glad I found the thread, glad I was able to tweak it and measure the result...but I wonder, like others...for $400, should one have to do this? Or is this a feature so that DIY'ers can be really thrilled when they make it work a whole lot better?
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post #163 of 176 Old 03-22-2015, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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As I searched, I found places that seemed very quiet compared to others, and some that were quite noisy. So, somewhere between loosey goosey and snug, I found a place where everything got quiet.

So...I'm glad I found the thread, glad I was able to tweak it and measure the result...but I wonder, like others...for $400, should one have to do this? Or is this a feature so that DIY'ers can be really thrilled when they make it work a whole lot better?
Yes, too snug defeats the purpose.

Harley Davidson riders call such flaws "character."
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post #164 of 176 Old 04-17-2015, 06:06 PM
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I just want to post my experience with trying to get rid of the hum on a Pro-ject Debut Carbon turntable. I first tried putting two neoprene washers under each of the motor mounting screws and a brass washer on top as mentioned in the previous posts. There was no improvement and it did not work for me. I then tried putting one neoprene washer under each of the four screws that hold the rubber band under the motor. I left the two motor screws out and let the motor float on just the rubber band. I tried putting the stock rubber washer under the motor and without it. I could not tell the difference between using and not using the stock rubber washer. But this definately improved the hum and I was getting maybe 75% less hum. I then used some good Outlaw Audio interconnects and used the ground wire on the stock Pro-ject interconnect. This improved the hum by another 10%. Therefore I was able to get about 85% improvement with these mods. I consider this a very satisfactory improvement. But I could not live with the fact that there was now a rubbing sound coming from the motor and belt. Therefore I just went back to the stock set-up and live with a audible hum when the tonearm is lowered onto the record. This is afterall only a $400 turntable. But I appreciate the OP and all those that contributed to this thread. Hopefully, there will be a more permanent solution in the future.
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post #165 of 176 Old 04-17-2015, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I just want to post my experience with trying to get rid of the hum on a Pro-ject Debut Carbon turntable. I first tried putting two neoprene washers under each of the motor mounting screws and a brass washer on top as mentioned in the previous posts. There was no improvement and it did not work for me. I then tried putting one neoprene washer under each of the four screws that hold the rubber band under the motor. I left the two motor screws out and let the motor float on just the rubber band. I tried putting the stock rubber washer under the motor and without it. I could not tell the difference between using and not using the stock rubber washer. But this definately improved the hum and I was getting maybe 75% less hum. I then used some good Outlaw Audio interconnects and used the ground wire on the stock Pro-ject interconnect. This improved the hum by another 10%. Therefore I was able to get about 85% improvement with these mods. I consider this a very satisfactory improvement. But I could not live with the fact that there was now a rubbing sound coming from the motor and belt. Therefore I just went back to the stock set-up and live with a audible hum when the tonearm is lowered onto the record. This is afterall only a $400 turntable. But I appreciate the OP and all those that contributed to this thread. Hopefully, there will be a more permanent solution in the future.
Bummer...I guess they are all different in their flaws.

Just used mine the past two weeks to digitize some very rare recordings for a dear friend.

Worked flawlessly and absolutely no audible noise between tracks from the TT...and none visible on the waveforms in the DAK program I use.

I wish the solutions presented would work for all in one way or another but sadly that is not the case.
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post #166 of 176 Old 04-18-2015, 06:56 PM
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I attempted to get rid of the hum again today. I went back to the neoprene washer under each of the four screws holding the motor rubber band. I took out the stock motor rubber washers and screws. I let the motor float on the rubber band. I used my good Outlaw Audio interconnects. This mod gives a 85% reduction in hum. Before I stated that with this mod there was a rubbing sound coming from the motor and belt. Well, I adjusted the belt and made sure it was not touching the top or bottom flange part of the pulley. This resulted in no rubbing sound from the motor or belt. I'm satisfied with a 85% reduction in hum. Therefore, actually one of the fixes did work. I hope this is a long term solution with no adverse side effects.
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post #167 of 176 Old 04-18-2015, 09:45 PM
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I did a little experimenting. I noticed that with the motor floating on the rubber band that the motor was tilted. It was not sitting straight up and down like when screwed down. Therefore, I used the stock motor rubber washer and lodged it between one edge of the motor and plinth. To my surprise, this reduced the hum by another 5%. Therefore, with the mods there has been a 90% reduction in hum. I'm very happy with the results. I'm not sure why these mods work, but they do. I encourage people to experiment and see what works best for them.
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post #168 of 176 Old 04-18-2015, 10:32 PM
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I posted a picture so you can see what the mods look like. You can see at the top of the picture where I lodged the stock motor rubber washer. I can't believe that it reduced the hum by 5%, but it did. You can also see the neoprene washers under the four screws that hold the motor rubber band. I hope this helps someone.
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post #169 of 176 Old 05-13-2015, 10:44 PM
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Hi Guys,
I bought a Black Debut Carbon B-Stock blem (you can see a few tiny things under bright lights, but not in any normal light) for $279 from Music Direct and have had it for a 5 days. I get to play around with it for a couple months before my son will take it over for a real nice "used" price.

First impression was that the cartridge might kill my ears. Raw! Doing fine now after 10-12 hours of play. It may not interface ideally with my Parasound Z-Phono. The Parasound has a lot of gain and the Red a lot of output and I wonder if it would like something mellower, like a tube preamp or just my old NAD 304 integrated, which made a somewhat wimpy combo with my ol' Pro-ject 1.2 and Grado Red. (The operation was then moved to the basement with another NAD integrated and the Parasound and that's been a great combo. System Synergy!)

Anyway...

The hum was there are the beginning, but you didn't hear it unless the volume was turned higher than any level at which I or the speakers can stand. After a day or so, I did realize that I could hear some mechanical "rotational" noise from the table itself. So I removed the transport screws after finding this great thread and it was gone. The hum was about the same- flagrant at 12:00 volume with music not playing, but OK with music on at normal volume. Not perfect, but no deal breaker.

But it got worse and last night there was clear hum upon record meeting stylus and it now intruded into the music. It was really easy to feel bad vibes in the tonearm. So it was off to the store for washers!

First up was Fix #1 , although I forgot about the brass washers. That was definitely better, though there was still a tad more something than one would want on the runout grooves.

So it was on to BARCURI'S fix with the rubber band screws. I figured it couldn't possibly hurt. The little platform around the pulley post wasn't vibrating as much. But now I realized I was getting more mechanical noise from the platter rotation again, so off came the transport screws. However, the bad vibes seemed to be on the increase again, as I felt like there was some of that tonearm vibration returning. Needle drop seemed a bit worse.

So the transport screws and washers are back on. One side was really nice, with no vibrations going into my finger when it was on the screw. The other screw took more fiddling, but a little firmer screwdown made it non-vibrational, too. The platform around the pulley post hardly vibrates now, which I hope isn't actually bad for some reason, like maybe energy dissipation. We'll see. If there is any platter rotation noise, it's very very faint.

There is still noise up there at 12:00 volume, but it seems less hummy and more buzzy. There's some modest runout groove noise, but I don't know that I'd call it very hummy and it's definitely not buzzy or snowy. Maybe it's just basic stylus sound at a healthy listening volume.

But for right now, a resounding THANK YOU GUYS is in order! My son will be getting a sweet first table for whatever I hit him up for. If things go south again, I may have to come back crying, but I now I at least have a clue.

Last edited by BrianWilson; 05-14-2015 at 12:47 AM.
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post #170 of 176 Old 05-13-2015, 10:55 PM
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I forgot to mention (in my book of a post) that I also learned what rumble is, although it happens at a level which would break both my ears or speakers. It seems a bit better now. For all I know, it may be there with my 1.2 and I've just never tried going up there that far on the dial. (My Parasound does have rumble filter and it works.)

Is rumble a separate issue?
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post #171 of 176 Old 05-14-2015, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention (in my book of a post) that I also learned what rumble is, although it happens at a level which would break both my ears or speakers. It seems a bit better now. For all I know, it may be there with my 1.2 and I've just never tried going up there that far on the dial. (My Parasound does have rumble filter and it works.)

Is rumble a separate issue?
Glad some of the suggestions worked for the most part for you.

Rumble on my TT has never been an issue.
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post #172 of 176 Old 05-14-2015, 06:54 PM
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Glad some of the suggestions worked for the most part for you.

Rumble on my TT has never been an issue.
And I've now decided that any sound between tracks or runout is just stylus hitting vinyl at a healthy volume level.
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post #173 of 176 Old 05-22-2015, 07:22 PM
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Received "AC" Debut III in red today. Hummmmmm!! Grrrr! Tried everything suggested here. My solution was to place rubber washers under corners of big o-ring and completely remove the 2 screws in the bracket.
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post #174 of 176 Old 05-23-2015, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Received "AC" Debut III in red today. Hummmmmm!! Grrrr! Tried everything suggested here. My solution was to place rubber washers under corners of big o-ring and completely remove the 2 screws in the bracket.
Did that cure it for you?
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post #175 of 176 Old 05-23-2015, 11:07 AM
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Did that cure it for you?
I'd say it was 90-95% cured. I completely removed the 2 screws and round rubber pieces under the ends of the motor mount plate and left them off. I placed 4 rubber washer under the o-ring itself at the 4 outer screws. The two visible sections of o-ring on either side of the motor and towards the outer edge of the plinth were suspended (no contact) over the plinth until they got to the washers/screws. But the two visible sections of o-ring on either side of the motor and closer to the spindle were still making contact with the plinth, so I also placed rubber washers under those two sections to attenuate that vibrating o-ring. The result was greatly diminished hum. Completely ridiculous that all this was necessary. Btw, I had the stylus resting on a tiny upside down plastic condiment cup on the deck of the plinth, with the motor running and my headphone on at high volume while I made these adjustments.

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post #176 of 176 Old 06-14-2015, 12:01 PM
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I posted a picture of the motor pulley and the pulley screw. If you removed the two motor screws and let the motor float on the rubber band, it will raise the motor a couple of millimeters. If you are using the Acryl It platter, I read that the motor pulley will grind against the bottom of the Acryl It platter. Therefore, you will need to turn the screw counter-clockwise in order to drop the pulley down on the pulley shaft. It will drop the pulley about 2-3 mm. Now the pulley will not grind against the bottom of the Acryl It platter. I also posted another picture that shows the cueing lifter screw. When I changed to the Acryl It platter and changed to a different cartridge, the tonearm was very, very close to the cueing lifter when the tonearm was down on the record. Therefore, turn the screw clockwise to lower the cueing lifter and counter-clockwise to raise the cueing lifter. I hopes this helps someone that is trying to get rid of the hum and is upgrading their turntable.
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