What's your favorite cable manufacturer? Poll - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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View Poll Results: What's your favorite cable manufacturer? Poll
Monoprice 61 43.26%
MIT Cables 3 2.13%
Transparent Cable 1 0.71%
Monster 2 1.42%
AudioQuest 22 15.60%
Kimber Kable 2 1.42%
Cardas 0 0%
Shunyata 0 0%
Nordost 3 2.13%
Siltech Cables 0 0%
Van Den Hul 0 0%
Synergistic Research 0 0%
Blue Jeans cable 41 29.08%
Tributaries Cable 0 0%
Goertz 0 0%
Dynex 0 0%
Tara Labs 2 1.42%
Wireworld Cable technology 3 2.13%
JPS Labs 1 0.71%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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post #211 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
So, wrapping back around to cables, to the DBT advocates I may well be delusional, and that's their opinion
I wouldn't use the word delusional. You've fallen into the symptoms that everyone would if they do casual subjective comparisons like the ones you shared. In such case, you are normal like everyone else.

When you do those comparisons for your own satisfaction or entertainment purposes, more power to you. But when you join forums and post claims like the following, you will face challenges and that's what internet forums are like.
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I certainly hear differences and they are most definitely not of the "the most expensive cable is best" variety.
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post #212 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:35 PM
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It's not really a claim, it's the truth, at least for me.

I hear differences between cables, and in my auditions, the highest end cable is not always the best sounding for a variety of reasons, and certainly my definition of "huge" difference may not be for someone who typically listens using their iPhone's pack-in headphones or just uses their stereo for background music.

Not unlike the way that for many you might be able to show them the difference between the way a Porsche and a Ferrari handles around the track, but it makes no difference for their trips to work and the mall.

If you care where that triangle is audibly positioned in the soundstage, differences may be huge, but it certainly will sound like a triangle in most ways regardless of whether a cable was fifty cents or $50,000, a piece of pack-in garbage or a universally well-reviewed favorite.
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post #213 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
You won't know unless you try it, right? With 5% nonrefundable deposit they charge? So, for their $3200 Accustic Arts's Premium Line Mk 2 speaker cables, I will have to spend $160 just to try at home. Yeah, right.
However, you can try me on sharing verification method to see if you really heard it or you think you heard it and it won't cost you a penny. What say you?
I have two sets of cables connected to my source, an optical cable and a coaxial. I labeled the optical input as SAT and the coax as CD. With one button I can click back and forth between the two immediately. The coaxial cable is inspiring, the optical makes me sick.
You can repeat this process for two coax cables using a Y splitter. If you want to blind test have a frien switch the cables so you don't know which is which.
When I feel sick I can check and have verified the optical cable was the cause.

Last edited by witchdoctor; 12-17-2015 at 02:44 PM.
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post #214 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Over the years... how much have you spent (lost) to return components or cables after an audition?
That is the wrong question. The question should be, "How much additional enjoyment has your high end cables brought you vs what you paid for them?"

My answer is I can't even listen to standard cables any more, it is TOO painful. It would be like going back to a 19 inch black and white TV after a 60 inch 4K TV.

Last edited by witchdoctor; 12-17-2015 at 02:48 PM.
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post #215 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
It's not really a claim, it's the truth, at least for me.
You may feel differently about the words you post but to the readers, that's a claim.
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I hear differences between cables, and in my auditions, the highest end cable is not always the best sounding for a variety of reasons, and certainly my definition of "huge" difference may not be for someone who typically listens using their iPhone's pack-in headphones or just uses their stereo for background music.
I've seen and participated in DBT of cables over the years. Those who brought their cables to show others about the differences they've heard couldn't say the same after DBT. Why? Once the visual bias was taken away, they couldn't distinguish their cable from cheap stuff from local hardware store. BTW, they did their usual comparison prior to DBT to see if they can still discern their cable at audio meets. When they do, we went on with DBT.
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If you care where that triangle is audibly positioned in the soundstage, differences may be huge, but it certainly will sound like a triangle in most ways regardless of whether a cable was fifty cents or $50,000, a piece of pack-in garbage or a universally well-reviewed favorite.
You ought to do DBT of your cables or go to audio meets where they do, just to see if the results come out differently. You won't know till you try it, right?
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post #216 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:52 PM
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Most of those companies aren't manufacturers. This point may have been made already, but I didn't really want to devote much time to a useless poll. Cables are chosen, based on the design and performance criteria. Well, they should be, anyway.
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post #217 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
No, I have not done DBT, which makes all my decisions invalid to some, and hey, that's fine. As I've stated several times, if that's you, enjoy your system with your cables and don't worry about me.

However, the way this should work is you borrow the cables you're interested in from your dealer. Take them home, try them out for a week or two. Switch back and forth between them and your own cables.

Do you hear a consistent improvement? How is the soundstage affected? Focus of singers and/or performers on-stage? Can you pick out details you hadn't noticed before? Long-term, is the sound pleasant or harsh and fatiguing? When swapping back to your own cables, are you disappointed by what you hear or is there a consistent improvement when you switch back?

That's the way I audition cables and the way I decide whether to purchase new cables, which cables to purchase or stick with what I have. It's worked well for me and I've had a wide variety of cables go through my system and have only purchased the ones I felt made a consistent improvement in notable, readily reproducible ways.

With the latest round of upgrades, I actually borrowed three pairs of interconnects from my dealer and made careful notes as to which did what, and whether those improvements were commensurate with the price charged and the price differentials between them.

Was it lab scientific? Perhaps not, more like a restaurant review or selecting among wines.

I choose all my components this way; ones that make a substantial improvement in sound quality to me get purchased or are added to the dream upgrade list; ones that make only a minor change or none at all do not.

For many here the time I've spent in the past auditioning multiple CD players, multiple DACs and multiple preamps may have been a waste of time, but in my system each had a unique sonic signature and I ultimately chose the one I felt best deserved a place in my system. Quite often, that component was not the most expensive and on more than one occasion was not the best reviewed or from a manufacturer whose products I was already predisposed to like. More often than not, I've auditioned the well-reviewed new component or cable only to find it didn't perform as well as what I already had so I decided not to make a purchase.

So, wrapping back around to cables, to the DBT advocates I may well be delusional, and that's their opinion; I hear the improvements I do and if Ted Denny at Synergistic or the folks at AudioQuest get a new Ferrari out of the deal, that's fine too - that's what capitalism is all about, providing products that people want at a price they're willing to part with their hard-earned dollars for.

I should have known better than to jump into a debate on such things here on AVS, but really, in a poll about favorites, there should be room for such discussion.
The problem here is this: You think you are the tester and the cables are being tested by you. But the reality is that the cables are the tester and your psychology - your conscious and subconscious biases - is the thing being tested.
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Last edited by beaveav; 12-17-2015 at 08:41 PM. Reason: fixed typo
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post #218 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by witchdoctor View Post
I have two sets of cables connected to my source, an optical cable and a coaxial. I labeled the optical input as SAT and the coax as CD. With one button I can click back and forth between the two immediately. The coaxial cable is inspiring, the optical makes me sick.
You can repeat this process for two coax cables using a Y splitter. If you want to blind test have a frien switch the cables so you don't know which is which.
When I feel sick I can check and have verified the optical cable was the cause.
Have you compared 2 coax cables against each other and 2 optical cables against each other? You know, to make it apple to apple comparison...
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post #219 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 04:07 PM
 
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Have you compared 2 coax cables against each other and 2 optical cables against each other? You know, to make it apple to apple comparison...
I have compared coax cables against each other yes because there is so much more selection. Optical cables there is not as much choice but I found one I want to audition HERE and will post once I compare.

As for the coaxial cables I have progressively moved up the chain from the RCA's that come with a component when you get it. The most expensive I have tried was $1000 and here is the review I wrote about it 10 years ago when I bought it http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/C...les/91585.html

However the most expensive was not the best in my system. I about fell over when I auditioned this one. No way in a million years did I think the other one would be topped, let alone clearly bested.
http://shop.***************.com/Clea...info/EDRIC-PL/

You can see the one I preferred was a lot less expensive. Now when I audition this stuff it must pass the "pepsi challenge" in my system or it gets returned.

I have tested other coax cables but so far nothing has topped my current reference.

To put this in context I listen to my system a lot, movies and music. Thinking of the extra amount of SQ I got from just one cable upgrade for 10 years until I found a better one is VALUE. To me not getting the extra SQ would have been 10 years of just not being satisfied. Spending big $$$ on speakers, amps, processors, BD and CDP and software is an investment. If I can't get the full SQ because I used a substandard cable all of the $$$ was not invested wisely and quite frankly to me a waste. So this is why I don't view high quality cables as an expense, it is an investment that helps me get the best performance from the entire system.

Last edited by witchdoctor; 12-17-2015 at 04:23 PM.
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post #220 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 04:29 PM
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I about fell over when I auditioned this one. No way in a million years did I think the other one would be topped, let alone clearly bested.
Auditioning is how you choose your cables and post claims about? Got it.
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post #221 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 05:15 PM
 
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Auditioning is how you choose your cables and post claims about? Got it.
Yep, here is another example from a more recent audition.

Here is Emotiva's claim about their coax cable:

https://emotiva.com/products/interconnects/x-drca

Here is my review:

Emotiva Digital Cable Review

This is one that didn't pass the Pepsi challenge.
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post #222 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 05:45 PM
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I wouldn't use the word delusional. .
I would. Especially after reading witchdoctor's "review".....can't wait until he tells us more about his feedback stabilizers
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post #223 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 08:31 PM
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These cable debates are laughable...
There's no way these so called "High End" cables deliver on their claims of superior sound, if they did, a well made, calibrated microphone would pick up some difference between them and cheaper cables...and they don't!!!

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post #224 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 08:38 PM
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As I said, if you find them laughable, that's fine - use whatever you want and feel free to be as smug about it as you like.

Personally, I'll choose what best enhances the sound of my system and we'll each enjoy our setups in the way we prefer.
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
As I said, if you find them laughable, that's fine - use whatever you want and feel free to be as smug about it as you like.

Personally, I'll choose what best enhances the sound of my system and we'll each enjoy our setups in the way we prefer.
Call my attitude smug if you want.
I have not seen any PROOF that these so called audiophile cables provide any improvement in sound. All I have seen is marketing material and opinions of people that say they do.
On the other hand, I have seen DBT results and measurements that say they don’t. Given this, I see no good reason to part with my hard earned money just to see if they will.
A good microphone can hear things no human can, yet they don’t pick up any difference between properly sized cables of reasonably quality. So why should I think I could hear a difference?
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post #226 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 09:36 PM
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See, and that's just it.

I don't need DBT test results to validate what I hear occurring in my own system.

I still say that iwere it merely psychology I wouldn't hear improvements I don't actively want to hear, and I would always be inclined to choose the most expensive or best reviewed cable I test.

None of those are true; in fact most often when I audition a new component and there's a positive improvement, my reaction is "Awww, #$@!" as I realize I'm going to need to purchase it or plan to someday purchase it or something else. But the sheer number of components I've returned to dealers stating "nope, I like what I have" is upward of 90%.

For example, when I borrowed one particular CD player that I wanted to like as it had been very well reviewed and I was a big fan of the brand, I found that my current player had a wider soundstage and better positioning of the instruments in the soundstage.

I wanted to buy it, had the money to buy it and had all but told the dealer "I'll take it" but ultimately not only was it not worth the upgrade, it would have been a drop in performance compared to what I currently own.

It gave me a good entry for the list of "what to buy if my current player" fails, but I actually ended up disappointed that I couldn't get the product I had so wanted to purchase based on all factors (engineering, design, brand, etc.) other than its sound.

Last edited by kucharsk; 12-17-2015 at 09:39 PM.
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post #227 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
See, and that's just it.

I don't need DBT test results to validate what I hear occurring in my own system.

I still say that iwere it merely psychology I wouldn't hear improvements I don't actively want to hear, and I would always be inclined to choose the most expensive or best reviewed cable I test.

None of those are true; in fact most often when I audition a new component and there's a positive improvement, my reaction is "Awww, #$@!" as I realize I'm going to need to purchase it or plan to someday purchase it or something else. But the sheer number of components I've returned to dealers stating "nope, I like what I have" is upward of 90%.

For example, when I borrowed one particular CD player that I wanted to like as it had been very well reviewed and I was a big fan of the brand, I found that my current player had a wider soundstage and better positioning of the instruments in the soundstage.

I wanted to buy it, had the money to buy it and had all but told the dealer "I'll take it" but ultimately not only was it not worth the upgrade, it would have been a drop in performance compared to what I currently own.

It gave me a good entry for the list of "what to buy if my current player" fails, but I actually ended up disappointed that I couldn't get the product I had so wanted to purchase based on all factors (engineering, design, brand, etc.) other than its sound.
You are neglecting the following confounding factors:
1) In addition to conscious biases, eg, this thing got a great review so it should sound good, there are also unconscious biases that impact your impressions when you try out gear
2) Your mood and your hearing change from minute to minute and day to day. Maybe you tried out gear X on a lower humidity day. Or maybe it was later in the evening and your hearing was more acute. Or maybe you had been exposed to some pollen earlier one day and your eustachian tubes were slightly congested. Or maybe you were thinking about some project at work and were stressed. Or maybe a window was open or an A/C compressor was running and there was a tiny bit of background noise or air motion.

It's things like that that make YOU (and me and all of us) unreliable as testers when we do sighted, uncontrolled testing/comparisons of gear. You're testing yourself and your mood as much as, if not moreso, than the gear you wish to be evaluating.

Proof of this is simple: Without changing a single piece of gear, it's entirely normal for people to feel sometimes like their system sounds phenomenal, and other times to be dissatisfied with it. Is the system changing from day to day? No, the person is.
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post #228 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 09:47 PM
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See, and that's just it.

I don't need DBT test results to validate what I hear occurring in my own system.
See, and that's just it.
What you offer is an opinion that has yet to be backed up with any real proof.
Psycology will play a part even if we attempt to void that part of our minds, we're human, that's the way it is...

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post #229 of 233 Old 12-17-2015, 10:46 PM
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2Your mood and your hearing change from minute to minute and day to day. Maybe you tried out gear X on a lower humidity day. Or maybe it was later in the evening and your hearing was more acute. Or maybe you had been exposed to some pollen earlier one day and your eustachian tubes were slightly congested. Or maybe you were thinking about some project at work and were stressed. Or maybe a window was open or an A/C compressor was running and there was a tiny bit of background noise or air motion.

It's things like that that make YOU (and me and all of us) unreliable as testers when we do sighted, uncontrolled testing/comparisons of gear. You're testing yourself and your mood as much as, if not moreso, than the gear you wish to be evaluating.
That doesn't answer for the tests where you play a song, note how it sounds, immediately swap back and so on.

Regardless, we shall agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I enjoy the choices I've made for my system and even among sighted reviewers one person's musical is another's bright, one person's detailed system is another's so fatiguing you can't listen for more than five minutes.

The DBT vs. sighted debate will rage forever I suspect. I'm not one of those who feels differences in cables for example cannot be measured but rather we don't yet know what other factors affect the sound space we hear.

This type of thing isn't without precedence; we still don't know enough about say the sense of taste or smell to understand why materials with the same mass spec composition taste or smell different. (Or worse yet why they may smell or taste different to different people.)
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post #230 of 233 Old 12-18-2015, 09:21 AM
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Over the years... how much have you spent (lost) to return components or cables after an audition?
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That is the wrong question..
No, it is a question that you did/would/can not answer or avoided to answer by redirection.

Man up and be truthful.
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post #231 of 233 Old 12-18-2015, 09:44 AM
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Personally, I'll choose what best enhances the sound of my system
You mean what you think best enhances the sound of my system, which is fine for you BTW.
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and we'll each enjoy our setups in the way we prefer.
That's fine too but some people join forums and post claims about the improvements they heard without supporting evidence. Then when they are challenged by other forum members, they complain.
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post #232 of 233 Old 12-18-2015, 09:49 AM
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but rather we don't yet know what other factors affect the sound space we hear.
It may not be known to you but that doesn't mean it's not known to the rest of the world.
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we still don't know enough about say the sense of taste or smell to understand why materials with the same mass spec composition taste or smell different. (Or worse yet why they may smell or taste different to different people.)
As for the audible sound to us, it's known what differences we hear and why.
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post #233 of 233 Old 12-18-2015, 01:11 PM
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71.95% for BJC and Monoprice. The choice for all of those with poor equipment and/or bad ears.
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