Great modern stereo receiver for <$1000? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 03-19-2014, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
RTSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I posted this in the receiver sub forum but got no response so I figured it might do better here.

I recently sold off my 5.2 surround sound setup due to financial/living reasons and have gone the stereo route starting up with a pair of wharfedale atlantic 500s and my trusty old sherwood receiver.

The speakers are fantastic and have fairly high sensitivity (93db 1w/1m) but I still find the sherwood doesn't have the juice to really push them, especially in regards to low frequency response. In comparison my previous receiver, a Sony STR-DA5700ES, had a lot of clean power and made my speakers sing no matter how loud they got. There were also a lot of modern features it had that my sherwood lacks such as USB video/audio playback, network features, digital connectivity etc...

So I really want to get a new receiver for my stereo setup, however I don't want anything beyond a 2 channel stereo receiver. I am happy to go with separates but I live in Australia so I'm limited (I can't get emotiva equipment for example).

The essentials features for me are:

-Decent amount of power. The speakers are in a big room and I do like to push them, also since I'm not using a subwoofer I use their full frequency response which seems to make them a lot more power thirsty.

-USB audio/video playback. Video isn't ABSOLUTELY essential but it would be nice. audio however is a must.

-Digital connectivity. I know it's pretty much impossible to find a good stereo receiver with HDMI connections however I still want optical for a blu-ray player/ps4.

-Network connectivity/streaming. Definitely prefer wi-fi but I do have a universal network adaptor.

So far the only receiver I've been able to find that ticks all these boxes is the Yamaha R-N500 (http://au.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/stereo-receivers/r-n500_g/?mode=model), although I don't have a clue how powerful it actually is since the manufacturer specs are generally useless and there are no proper measurements I can find.

Any thoughts on this receiver? Any other suggestions?

All help is appreciated!
RTSW is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 03-19-2014, 09:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,559
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 348
I would look at close-outs on the HK 3490 or refurbs (directly from Harman). Or you might consider their refresh (new models) stereo receiver line that includes the 3700 and 3770.
RTSW likes this.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old 03-19-2014, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
RTSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

I would look at close-outs on the HK 3490 or refurbs (directly from Harman). Or you might consider their refresh (new models) stereo receiver line that includes the 3700 and 3770.
The 3770 looks very promising and almost exactly what I'm after however it doesn't appear to be out yet. I'll have to look around and see if there is an Australian release date.

Cheers!
RTSW is offline  
post #4 of 18 Old 03-19-2014, 10:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,559
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 348
I believe it is available for pre-order internationally.

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 03-19-2014, 10:40 PM
Member
 
bigcam406's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
the RN-500 is rated at 80 watts/ch
bigcam406 is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 03-20-2014, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
RTSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

I believe it is available for pre-order internationally.
Is that from the USA site? Because it has actually blocked me. I tried to UK store but there is no pre-order option (I'd prefer UK due to the same voltage unlike USA)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcam406 View Post

the RN-500 is rated at 80 watts/ch
I generally don't trust the specs most manufacturers give out. It could say 80 watts x2 and the total power consumption for the unit is 100 watts, so how would that work?
RTSW is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 03-21-2014, 02:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
commsysman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,275
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked: 253
.
Outlaw makes a great 2-channel receiver for well under $1000, the 2150. I think it has all of the features the OP is looking for and more.

I don't know if it is available in Australia.

If you get an OPPO BDP-105, you will have all of the functions you are looking for and can use any integrated amplifier.

You will also have a player that is one of the best at any price for SACD and CD playback; state of the art!

It has USB inputs, playback from USB memory modules, and a superior DAC; among many other features.



As far as AVRs are concerned, their published power ratings are next to useless for the following reasons:

1)They are load-tested with two channels only operating.

2) they are tested with an 8 ohm resistor for a load, which is a joke. Real speakers make the amplifiers work 100 times as hard due to inductance, capacitance, and low impedance at most frequencies.

3) The distortion when driving real speaker systems will be several orders of magnitude higher when 5 or 7 speakers are connected and the power supply is pushed to its limits supplying all those channels at once.

The only companies that put out a superior AVR, IMO, are Arcam, NAD, and Cambridge Audio. They are the only ones I would recommend to anyone, because they maintain lower distortion with a wider range of speakers.

The NAD T758 is $1000, and IMO is the best AVR by far at that price.
RTSW likes this.
commsysman is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 03-21-2014, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
RTSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

.
Outlaw makes a great 2-channel receiver for well under $1000, the 2150. I think it has all of the features the OP is looking for and more.

I don't know if it is available in Australia.

If you get an OPPO BDP-105, you will have all of the functions you are looking for and can use any integrated amplifier.

You will also have a player that is one of the best at any price for SACD and CD playback; state of the art!

It has USB inputs, playback from USB memory modules, and a superior DAC; among many other features.



As far as AVRs are concerned, their published power ratings are next to useless for the following reasons:

1)They are load-tested with two channels only operating.

2) they are tested with an 8 ohm resistor for a load, which is a joke. Real speakers make the amplifiers work 100 times as hard due to inductance, capacitance, and low impedance at most frequencies.

3) The distortion when driving real speaker systems will be several orders of magnitude higher when 5 or 7 speakers are connected and the power supply is pushed to its limits supplying all those channels at once.

The only companies that put out a superior AVR, IMO, are Arcam, NAD, and Cambridge Audio. They are the only ones I would recommend to anyone, because they maintain lower distortion with a wider range of speakers.

The NAD T758 is $1000, and IMO is the best AVR by far at that price.
Thanks a lot for the recommendations, I'll check them out now.
RTSW is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 03-21-2014, 04:10 PM
Member
 
ed1em2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 34

You should check out this thread. It might be useful.

RTSW likes this.
ed1em2 is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 03-21-2014, 10:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,559
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1em2 View Post

You should check out this thread. It might be useful.

Forgot to post the link?

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 05:30 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,381
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 747 Post(s)
Liked: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSW View Post

I posted this in the receiver sub forum but got no response so I figured it might do better here.

I recently sold off my 5.2 surround sound setup due to financial/living reasons and have gone the stereo route starting up with a pair of wharfedale atlantic 500s and my trusty old sherwood receiver.

I can relate to that as I bought my first Sherwood stereo tuner in the mid-1960s. I've had a couple of Sherwood stereo receivers recently and feel that they gave me good value for the minimal investment.
Quote:
The speakers are fantastic and have fairly high sensitivity (93db 1w/1m) but I still find the Sherwood doesn't have the juice to really push them, especially in regards to low frequency response. In comparison my previous receiver, a Sony STR-DA5700ES, had a lot of clean power and made my speakers sing no matter how loud they got. There were also a lot of modern features it had that my sherwood lacks such as USB video/audio playback, network features, digital connectivity etc...

I have a store room of separates some with gobs of power, and used them with the same speakers that I used with the Sherwood 2 channel receivers. My speakers have had average efficiency all along. My listening room is a little larger than average with a 12' listening distance.

I've had subwoofers on and off since the 1980s. When I brought in the Paradigm 12" that I still use, proper subwoofer integration became very important to me. I have a fair inventory of power amps, equalizers and crossovers on hand and I experimented with them for several years.

I got involved with AVRs because a power surge due to bad power company wiring knocked out my last Sherwood. At the time large amounts of cash was not freely available so I bought a low end Yamaha 5.1 AVR from a local appliance store chain on clearance. This vastly simplified the component setup and also provided improved sound quality.
Quote:
So I really want to get a new receiver for my stereo setup, however I don't want anything beyond a 2 channel stereo receiver. I am happy to go with separates but I live in Australia so I'm limited (I can't get emotiva equipment for example).

I sense a strong prejudice against AVRs which I found out to be self-defeating because AVRs make great stereo receivers if you set them up for just 2 speakers.
Quote:
The essentials features for me are:

-Decent amount of power. The speakers are in a big room and I do like to push them, also since

The fact of life is that just about every mainstream AVR has from 80 to 160 watts per channel and that is only a 3 dB range which is audible but not strongly so. It takes 10 times the power to go "Twice as loud" and that is true only if you are already up against your amp's power limits.

I find that almost all audiophiles have almost no concrete idea about how much power they are actually using. They don't even know what SPL's they listen at. Any competent analysis of one's need for power starts with one or the other.
Quote:
I'm not using a subwoofer I use their full frequency response which seems to make them a lot more power thirsty.

Avoiding subwoofers used to make more sense when good bass management facilities were hard to find. 2 channel receivers or separates with good bass management do exist, but they are not the rule.


I have looked at lab tests of a lot of so-called full range speakers and the fact is that even the largest full range speakers can be outperformed below 80 Hz by a good $300 subwoofer. When you start wisely investing real money in subwoofers the sound quality benefits accrue rapidly.
Quote:
-USB audio/video playback. Video isn't ABSOLUTELY essential but it would be nice. audio however is a must.

-Digital connectivity. I know it's pretty much impossible to find a good stereo receiver with HDMI connections however I still want optical for a blu-ray player/ps4.

-Network connectivity/streaming. Definitely prefer wi-fi but I do have a universal network adaptor.

You just spelled out what most modern AVRs come with, standard. My Denon AVR 1913 is low-mid priced and does all that.

That prejudice against AVRs can cost you the other things you want or make them cost you a lot more then is necessary.

[
arnyk is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 02:37 PM
Member
 
ed1em2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post


Forgot to post the link?

I really can't believe you didn't click on the word "this" . The link was included there. It's a common feature on forums to hide links behind words.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519729/yamaha-r-s500-or-harman-kardon-hk-3390-edit-or-onkyo-tx-8050

ed1em2 is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 03:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
postrokfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Ft. Collins, CO
Posts: 2,559
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed1em2 View Post

I really can't believe you didn't click on the word "this" . The link was included there. It's a common feature on forums to hide links behind words.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1519729/yamaha-r-s500-or-harman-kardon-hk-3390-edit-or-onkyo-tx-8050

Yeah, me either. Sorry about that. wink.gif

"Guns for show, knives for a pro..."
postrokfan is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 05:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Playdrv4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

I can relate to that as I bought my first Sherwood stereo tuner in the mid-1960s. I've had a couple of Sherwood stereo receivers recently and feel that they gave me good value for the minimal investment.
I have a store room of separates some with gobs of power, and used them with the same speakers that I used with the Sherwood 2 channel receivers. My speakers have had average efficiency all along. My listening room is a little larger than average with a 12' listening distance.

I've had subwoofers on and off since the 1980s. When I brought in the Paradigm 12" that I still use, proper subwoofer integration became very important to me. I have a fair inventory of power amps, equalizers and crossovers on hand and I experimented with them for several years.

I got involved with AVRs because a power surge due to bad power company wiring knocked out my last Sherwood. At the time large amounts of cash was not freely available so I bought a low end Yamaha 5.1 AVR from a local appliance store chain on clearance. This vastly simplified the component setup and also provided improved sound quality.
I sense a strong prejudice against AVRs which I found out to be self-defeating because AVRs make great stereo receivers if you set them up for just 2 speakers.
The fact of life is that just about every mainstream AVR has from 80 to 160 watts per channel and that is only a 3 dB range which is audible but not strongly so. It takes 10 times the power to go "Twice as loud" and that is true only if you are already up against your amp's power limits.

I find that almost all audiophiles have almost no concrete idea about how much power they are actually using. They don't even know what SPL's they listen at. Any competent analysis of one's need for power starts with one or the other.
Avoiding subwoofers used to make more sense when good bass management facilities were hard to find. 2 channel receivers or separates with good bass management do exist, but they are not the rule.


I have looked at lab tests of a lot of so-called full range speakers and the fact is that even the largest full range speakers can be outperformed below 80 Hz by a good $300 subwoofer. When you start wisely investing real money in subwoofers the sound quality benefits accrue rapidly.
You just spelled out what most modern AVRs come with, standard. My Denon AVR 1913 is low-mid priced and does all that.

That prejudice against AVRs can cost you the other things you want or make them cost you a lot more then is necessary.

[

I think the bad rap AVRs get has more to do with the fact that the stuff you can generally buy at the big box stores *these* days is all chinese mass market produced to a cost and not to a performance spec equipment, and because 2 channel is now relegated to more top end installations, multichannel receivers are all that's really common to find anymore. And then out of that range it's generally the lowest performing stuff in that category.

AVRs can *certainly* produce good results when only driving two channels... when they use quality components and top notch construction to begin with, like anything. If you look over at the Classe CP-800 preamp thread you'll see I started with a Pioneer VSX-49TX from 2001 that was still made in Japan... connected to B&W 802D speakers. These speakers are known to be massively power hungry and under most circumstance people would laugh at that combination. But I used those two devices together to VERY acceptable results when I first got my 802Ds home before I had a chance to go and procure all the rest of the equipment. Even when I did add in a Classe dedicated amplifier the results were not *dramatically* different. The only reason I did so is that the VSX is not designed to operate at 4 ohm loads and the 802s are variable impedence speakers, which under heavy loads can certainly cross that threshold. Was I at risk of crossing it? Probably not, honestly. But I wasn't going to take the chance and kill the speakers or the receiver in the process.

But... That Pioneer is a 70lb beast of an AVR, it even has facilities built in to bi-amp from its rear and front channels in combination. I go in to best buy these days and most of the "AVRs" that are in there I can literally lift off the shelf with a pinky finger. Even the newest entry level "Elite" model. Gross.
Playdrv4me is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 09:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post

I think the bad rap AVRs get has more to do with the fact that the stuff you can generally buy at the big box stores *these* days is all chinese mass market produced to a cost and not to a performance spec equipment, and because 2 channel is now relegated to more top end installations, multichannel receivers are all that's really common to find anymore. And then out of that range it's generally the lowest performing stuff in that category...

You seem to come across with quite a snobbish attitude.

It's junk because it's cheap or it's good because it's expensive...???

You would be easy to market to. Just put a few more zeros on the end of the price tag.
kiwi2 is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 09:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Playdrv4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

You seem to come across with quite a snobbish attitude.

It's junk because it's cheap or it's good because it's expensive...???

You would be easy to market to. Just put a few more zeros on the end of the price tag.

You obviously missed the point of the post, you also haven't read anything else I've posted throughout this forum. I bought a pair of JBL speakers for a few hundred dollars, from the early 1990s which perform remarkably well even compared to the B&W 802s I have now. Cost does not equate to quality, but building *to* a cost instead of a standard of performance, as the Japanese manufacturers used to do before they folded to the "Middle Kingdom" mindset, can certainly have a negative effect on quality. Is it possible to build to a standard, AND manufacture in China? Sure, but it's usually an exception (Emotiva, Parasound).

Quite frankly, it is you who would be easy to sell any garbage on the street to at ANY price. I took serious issue with Classe for moving production to China and continuing to charge the same prices they do now for the equipment they used to produce in North America, because in their case, they do not market themselves from a perspective of affordability.

But you continue believing that whatever is shoved down your throat at the cheapest price possible is as good as what was produced 15 to 20 years ago. The WalMart-ization mentality will keep those manufacturers nice and plump with you buying whatever they throw on the shelf with no one demanding any better. But hey, if being a snob means spending the same amount of money for something older and better made, than walking into the store and accepting whatever's there, then by all means, I am a snob against most modern electronics. I also find it ironic that you can't remember that I was the one who called out the guy trying to make the point that anyone who was comparing Emotiva to McIntosh couldn't possibly know anything about audio or call themselves an audiophile. Yeah, that was me, and I remember you also catching the pompousness of that assertion. Selective memory... But try again.
GLBright likes this.
Playdrv4me is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 11:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kiwi2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post

Quite frankly, it is you who would be easy to sell any garbage on the street to at ANY price. I took serious issue with Classe for moving production to China and continuing to charge the same prices they do now for the equipment they used to produce in North America, because in their case, they do not market themselves from a perspective of affordability.

Of course they wouldn't lower their price. Then the snobs out there would think it's a cheap piece of junk only fit for the masses. As I said it's easy to market snob appeal. Just put a few more zeros on the end of the price tag.
kiwi2 is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 03-22-2014, 11:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Playdrv4me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,198
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Of course they wouldn't lower their price. Then the snobs out there would think it's a cheap piece of junk only fit for the masses. As I said it's easy to market snob appeal. Just put a few more zeros on the end of the price tag.

Cool.
Playdrv4me is offline  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off