which gives more bang for the buck? DAC+amp or Int. amp? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 04-02-2014, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been using Yulong D100 DAC (USB, w/headphone amp) for my headphones for some years, recently I am into speakers and would like to know that should I add a power amp, or sell the DAC and get a more expensive integrated amp? I think I paid $350-400 for the DAC when it first came out and I could sell it for $220-250 today, my budget for power amp is $200-300. So that would make my budget for the integrated amp in the $400-500 range. Mind you the quality of Yulong D100 is very good, it's close to some of the those in the $800-1000 range. My gut feeling is keep the DAC and get a power amp, but I had been out of touch with the music technology in the last couple of years so maybe there are better products today? What do you say?

Update: I just realized most power amps don't have volume control, and the volume knob on the DAC is only for headphone out, so looks like integrated amp is the way to go then? My source is computer and I can use the volume control in windows, not sure if that's not going to be a good idea.
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post #2 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I've been using Yulong D100 DAC (USB, w/headphone amp) for my headphones for some years, recently I am into speakers and would like to know that should I add a power amp, or sell the DAC and get a more expensive integrated amp? I think I paid $350-400 for the DAC when it first came out and I could sell it for $220-250 today, my budget for power amp is $200-300. So that would make my budget for the integrated amp in the $400-500 range. Mind you the quality of Yulong D100 is very good, it's close to some of the those in the $800-1000 range. My gut feeling is keep the DAC and get a power amp, but I had been out of touch with the music technology in the last couple of years so maybe there are better products today? What do you say?

Update: I just realized most power amps don't have volume control, and the volume knob on the DAC is only for headphone out, so looks like integrated amp is the way to go then? My source is computer and I can use the volume control in windows, not sure if that's not going to be a good idea.

The best and least expensive way to get a nice collection of power amps with a volume control is usually to obtain an AVR.
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post #3 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:16 AM
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Or active monitors with possibly an audio interface at a later date.

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post #4 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:43 AM
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That's actually a really good question, especially with all the interest in hi-end USB DACs lately. I really think that (good) integrated amps/receivers are the way to go. For example, you can get really good ESS Sabre DACs in manym Yamaha AVRs along with all the digital inputs you need (that also accomodate "hi-rez" music--but that's another story). In addition, you get multi-channel support. Of course, you "get what you pay for", but I think many high-end integrated solutions offer the best "bang for your buck".

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post #5 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post

That's actually a really good question, especially with all the interest in hi-end USB DACs lately. I really think that (good) integrated amps/receivers are the way to go. For example, you can get really good ESS Sabre DACs in many Yamaha AVRs along with all the digital inputs you need (that also accomodate "hi-rez" music--but that's another story). In addition, you get multi-channel support. Of course, you "get what you pay for", but I think many high-end integrated solutions offer the best "bang for your buck".

That's just it. There is no global rule that says "You get what you pay for". The option of getting far less than what you pay for is always there!

Segregating the same parts into a number of smaller separate boxes can be very costly. And it makes the system harder to set up.

ESS Sabre chips run as low as $16 each in pairs - production quantities would probably be half that or less.
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post #6 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I've been using Yulong D100 DAC (USB, w/headphone amp) for my headphones for some years, recently I am into speakers and would like to know that should I add a power amp, or sell the DAC and get a more expensive integrated amp? I think I paid $350-400 for the DAC when it first came out and I could sell it for $220-250 today, my budget for power amp is $200-300. So that would make my budget for the integrated amp in the $400-500 range. Mind you the quality of Yulong D100 is very good, it's close to some of the those in the $800-1000 range. My gut feeling is keep the DAC and get a power amp, but I had been out of touch with the music technology in the last couple of years so maybe there are better products today? What do you say?

Update: I just realized most power amps don't have volume control, and the volume knob on the DAC is only for headphone out, so looks like integrated amp is the way to go then? My source is computer and I can use the volume control in windows, not sure if that's not going to be a good idea.

The best and least expensive way to get a nice collection of power amps with a volume control is usually to obtain an AVR.

If you want the most bang for your buck, this is it. The reason has to do with the economies of scale. So many major brand surround receivers are made that it is very cheap per unit for what it is.

Now, if you want to impress foolish audiophiles who imagine that putting electronics in separate boxes magically makes it better than putting it all in one box, then you will want to choose something else. But that has nothing to do with actual sound quality.
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post #7 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I see. Many years the trend was to separate everything to minimize crosstalk and interference, I guess these days that's not going to be a concern anymore.

So are all integrated amp called receivers these days? There is no integrated amp for audiophiles?
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post #8 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The best and least expensive way to get a nice collection of power amps with a volume control is usually to obtain an AVR.

Actually I avoided posting my question in the amp forum because everyone there uses receivers, I guess these days receivers have caught up in quality even for audiophiles? That's interesting,
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post #9 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I see. Many years the trend was to separate everything to minimize crosstalk and interference, I guess these days that's not going to be a concern anymore.

So are all integrated amp called receivers these days? There is no integrated amp for audiophiles?

Integrated amps as a separate product category have largely disappeared. Oh, a few still exist but they have shrunk to a tiny fraction of the market.

There are a few integrated amps at high prices for those who want to pay more for less.

Back in the day, the FM stereo tuner was an large, expensive part of a receiver. Today an entire near SOTA FM stereo receiver fits on one tiny chip with a dozen or so supporting components costing nearly nothing.

There isn't much cost or space saving involved in leaving it out.
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post #10 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I see. Many years the trend was to separate everything to minimize crosstalk and interference, I guess these days that's not going to be a concern anymore.

The architecture of receivers has undergone a dramatic change.

For example, a traditional preamp was half phono preamp and half line level and tone controls. The phono preamp completely disappeared with vinyl and the line level and tone control portions were miniaturized onto a chip.

The DVD introduced digital audio to the mainstream receivers, and DSP chips took over the majority of the signal processing load. But, being digital they don't take up a lot of space and they are largely invulnerable to crosstalk and interference.

Video switching and processing was added.

All of the functions of the front panel controls have been replaced with a display and a few push buttons, Most people hardly every touch their receivers, they use remote controls.

As I pointed out in another post the FM tuner which used to take up almost half the space in a receiver was miniaturized into a chip. The FM tuner circuits used to cover several large circuit cards and now they all fit into a matchbox-sized shielded box. About the only things that are recognizable from a mid-1990s receiver/amplifier are the power transformer, the power amps and their heat sinks.

Bass management and controlling multiple channels had to be added but they are now partially handled by the DSP and partially handled by the gain/switching/tone control chip that are already there.
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post #11 of 41 Old 04-03-2014, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am just a little paranoid that receivers might color the sound a bit to make them more suitable for movies rather than music listening. I need amps that have neutral sound.

I found this little amp that has volume control: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6
But I am not sure of its quality.

I am not looking for something that's expensive, actually I wanted to get a parasound Zamp v.3, it has gain knobs on the back, not sure if that can be used as volume knob or not.
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post #12 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I am just a little paranoid that receivers might color the sound a bit to make them more suitable for movies rather than music listening. I need amps that have neutral sound.

I found this little amp that has volume control: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6
But I am not sure of its quality.

I'm not sure either. you can find complete specs here:

http://www.audiosource.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/AmpGuide.pdf

It certainly has no better specs than a reasonably good low end AVR.

And speaking of the devil, here is a competitive AVR for just a few dollars less:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavr1513/denon-avr-1513-5.1ch-home-theater-receiver-3d-ready/1.html

If you compare the specs the low end AVR has 50% more power and 50% as much distortion. All this is possible due to the economies of scale. AVRs are built in quantities on the order of 10,000 per month. Integrated amps are now specialty items and are small volume products in comparison.

Just goes to show you that there is always someone who is willing to sell you less for more! ;-)
Quote:
I am not looking for something that's expensive, actually I wanted to get a parasound Zamp v.3, it has gain knobs on the back, not sure if that can be used as volume knob or not.

Yup for only 3 times the street price, you can obtain even less for your money!
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post #13 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post

I am just a little paranoid that receivers might color the sound a bit to make them more suitable for movies rather than music listening. I need amps that have neutral sound.

I found this little amp that has volume control: http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6
But I am not sure of its quality.

I am not looking for something that's expensive, actually I wanted to get a parasound Zamp v.3, it has gain knobs on the back, not sure if that can be used as volume knob or not.

Most AVR's allow you to defeat the room calibration for complete neutrality. But the reality is that it improves sonics in most rooms so most of us tend to use it.. Personally I use the room calibration for movies but defeat it for music listening. There is no good reason for me to do that. I just still have some of those old audiophile preferences running through my arteries like you do.
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post #14 of 41 Old 04-04-2014, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you guys for pointing me in the right direction, I will definitely look into it more.
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post #15 of 41 Old 04-12-2014, 10:31 PM
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Bad thing about AVR's, they are not as reliable as they used to be. I've got a 1994 Yamaha receiver, still running strong as the day I bought it. My Onkyo 906 was in the shop two weeks after I bought, sat in a box for two years after that, and after a year it's not right again. My Yamaha TOL AVR - volume doesn't work on the unit (remote it works fine). That's the biggest issue with AVR's today - Arnyk is right, they make tons of them, and a lot of them have issues. Economy of scale for both price and reliability. An integrated amp - not much going on there - less things to 'go wrong'. And yes, because there are so few made they are more expensive but lets not always push stuff on people just because it works right for you. Nothing wrong with a nice simple integrated amplifier. For one thing you don't have to read an encyclopedia to figure out how it all works!

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post #16 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpt_Krunch View Post

Bad thing about AVR's, they are not as reliable as they used to be. I've got a 1994 Yamaha receiver, still running strong as the day I bought it. My Onkyo 906 was in the shop two weeks after I bought, sat in a box for two years after that, and after a year it's not right again. My Yamaha TOL AVR - volume doesn't work on the unit (remote it works fine). That's the biggest issue with AVR's today - Arnyk is right, they make tons of them, and a lot of them have issues. Economy of scale for both price and reliability. An integrated amp - not much going on there - less things to 'go wrong'. And yes, because there are so few made they are more expensive but lets not always push stuff on people just because it works right for you. Nothing wrong with a nice simple integrated amplifier. For one thing you don't have to read an encyclopedia to figure out how it all works!

Truely amazing the far reaching conclusions that people reach based on a sample of at least 2.. Since my name was mentioned, I feel like I have the right and even responsibility to correct the above example of questionable logic.

The most critical thing we are facing now from the viewpoint of AVR useful life is a rapidly-moving technological world. That means that any AVR that is built today will probably be taken out of service due to obsolescence long before it stops reliably playing tunes.

One of my hobbies is visiting estate sales of which there are 5 or more every week in this community. About 1/3 of the sales have one or more AVRs for sale. I've learned how to read AVR front panels so that I don't even have to lock at the back of the AVR to see if there are any HDMI inputs. Why would I want an AVR that lacks HDMI inputs? How far back do we have to go to find AVRs that have HDMI inputs? 10 years?

One of the big changes that are in the works is wireless speakers. They mean that mainstream AVRs will no longer include what is today one of the biggest reasons to buy one - power amps. Every AVR, stereo receiver, mono receiver, or higher fidelity radio since 1922 has had a power amp in it.

On the horizon, every mainstrream AVR has no power amps. Why would anybody want an AVR with power amps? I want my AVR to be able to be a full participant in a wireless loudspeaker network! You think that AVRs are big empty boxes now? ;-)
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post #17 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 06:52 AM
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I would never buy an AVR that ONLY supports wireless (speaker) connections; similarly, I wouldn't want to make wireless speakers the focus of my home theater setup. These type of speakers (like Bluetooth jam boxes) are OK for peripheral/accessory speakers, but not for serious home theater or music listening.

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post #18 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanton View Post

I would never buy an AVR that ONLY supports wireless (speaker) connections; similarly, I wouldn't want to make wireless speakers the focus of my home theater setup. These type of speakers (like Bluetooth jam boxes) are OK for peripheral/accessory speakers, but not for serious home theater or music listening.

While I can relate to the emotion, I have many times before seen handwriting on the wall turn into accomplished fact.

Here's a sample of the handwriting on the wall as related to this issue:

http://www.wisaassociation.org/

Doesn't look like a low-end effort for just extension speakers to me, but maybe I'm way wrong! ;-)
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post #19 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

While I can relate to the emotion, I have many times before seen handwriting on the wall turn into accomplished fact.

Here's a sample of the handwriting on the wall as related to this issue:

http://www.wisaassociation.org/

Doesn't look like a low-end effort for just extension speakers to me, but maybe I'm way wrong! ;-)

So I checked out that link...and while it does seem to be a step beyond jam-box type speakers, I have a couple of concerns about the technology:

1) They're operating in unlicensed 5 GHz spectrum; while not as "crowded" as 2.5 GHz, it's getting worse by the day/week/month
2) I can't imagine a "distributed DAC" or "distributed power amp" design being as good (or as cost effective) as one in a centralized location (e.g. AVR or amp)
3) you still have to have some sort of central pre-amp/processor for switching, etc., so now you have to plug 4/5/6 things into 110v AC instead of just one (most speakers are NOT powered)

It will be interesting to see how successful it ultimately becomes.

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post #20 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

...
On the horizon, every mainstrream AVR has no power amps. Why would anybody want an AVR with power amps? I want my AVR to be able to be a full participant in a wireless loudspeaker network! You think that AVRs are big empty boxes now? ;-)

Regardless of what they make in the future, no AVR will ever be without power amps. "AVR" stands for "Audio/Video Receiver," and a "receiver" is a tuner, preamp, and power amp, all in one box. So what you are talking about is a tuner/preamp combo, not an AVR.

For my part, I do not expect to ever go with wireless speakers. I already have really good speakers, and they are likely to last the rest of my life. Also, wireless speakers will be inherently less reliable than unpowered speakers, which are so reliable that many can last many decades, if not abused. Consequently, it will likely cost one a good deal more over one's lifetime to go with wireless than to go with conventional speakers.

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post #21 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 05:06 PM
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If mainstream speakers go wireless, are the cable merchants going to start peddling special air to maximize the fidelity of the signal path between the wireless transmiiter and receiver?
$1000+ AC cords and $500 AC outlets already exist, so they've got that covered already.

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post #22 of 41 Old 04-13-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Truely amazing the far reaching conclusions that people reach based on a sample of at least 2.. Since my name was mentioned, I feel like I have the right and even responsibility to correct the above example of questionable logic.

The most critical thing we are facing now from the viewpoint of AVR useful life is a rapidly-moving technological world. That means that any AVR that is built today will probably be taken out of service due to obsolescence long before it stops reliably playing tunes.

One of my hobbies is visiting estate sales of which there are 5 or more every week in this community. About 1/3 of the sales have one or more AVRs for sale. I've learned how to read AVR front panels so that I don't even have to lock at the back of the AVR to see if there are any HDMI inputs. Why would I want an AVR that lacks HDMI inputs? How far back do we have to go to find AVRs that have HDMI inputs? 10 years?

One of the big changes that are in the works is wireless speakers. They mean that mainstream AVRs will no longer include what is today one of the biggest reasons to buy one - power amps. Every AVR, stereo receiver, mono receiver, or higher fidelity radio since 1922 has had a power amp in it.

On the horizon, every mainstrream AVR has no power amps. Why would anybody want an AVR with power amps? I want my AVR to be able to be a full participant in a wireless loudspeaker network! You think that AVRs are big empty boxes now? ;-)

Well - 2 for 2 arnie - so you tell me? Tell you what, buy my receivers off me for what I paid for them and I'll be happy smile.gif - they still work just fine for music don't get me wrong, just don't use the HDMI switching on the ONk and make sure you keep fresh batteries in the remote for the Yammy as if they die and you need to turn down the music you'll have to turn off the receiver or audio source to cut the sound. It's just a simple, manufacturing quality control fact - the more you produce, the better chance you have at having some 'bad ones' get through. Especially at the prices they offer.

As for wireless speakers - my BIL has a wireless setup for some surround speakers. He's on an acreage so no interference luckily but I'd be worried about that for sure. My Vox Model amp will pick up radio stations once in a while (come to think of it my acoustic amp did once too....) and back in the 80's my Kenwood receiver used to pick up my neighbor's cordless phone - heard some interesting conversations I tell ya. I could only imagine the carnage of wireless speakers.

I'd use them (wireless) for outdoor speakers in a heartbeat but for inside - never. Not even for surrounds. Not at least until the technology is perfected and there is no outside interference.

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post #23 of 41 Old 04-14-2014, 10:19 AM
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How would say a good multichannel AVR compare with a 2-ch integrated in terms of power? From what I've read recently on AVRs, they are usually rated around 100-150W distributed over all (7+ channels) whereas my integrated is 150W into 2 channels. Do AVRs have discrete amplifiers for each channel or is there some kind of load sharing? In terms of 2-ch music, would a multichannel AVR have all power available to the two main channels for music listening? I've been thinking about eventually replacing my integrated and external DAC with an AVR, but I have suspicions (probably unfounded) that an AVR won't hold up in terms of sound quality.
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post #24 of 41 Old 04-14-2014, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric Tatara View Post

How would say a good multichannel AVR compare with a 2-ch integrated in terms of power?

What kind of power? Test bench power or listening room power?
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From what I've read recently on AVRs, they are usually rated around 100-150W distributed over all (7+ channels)

Incorrect. AVRs are rated at 100-150 wpc, with a pure steady sine wave, some just 2 channels, some all channels.
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whereas my integrated is 150W into 2 channels.

That's a pretty good representation of what to expect from the lightest weight AVR - 100-150 wpc 2 channels driven, resistive load, test signal = pure steady sine wave.

The heavier and more expensive AVRs can perform that well with more channels driven. Some do well with all channels driven.

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Do AVRs have discrete amplifiers for each channel

Yes there is a dedicated channel circuit that resembles what you find in separate power amps and stereo integrated amplifiers, for every powered output channel, without exception.
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or is there some kind of load sharing?

Like most 2-channel amplifiers (and as is optimal) the internal DC power supply is shared among all of the channels.
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In terms of 2-ch music, would a multichannel AVR have all power available to the two main channels for music listening?

Yes, without exception.
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I've been thinking about eventually replacing my integrated and external DAC with an AVR, but I have suspicions (probably unfounded) that an AVR won't hold up in terms of sound quality.

That's a suspicion that is pushed down the throat of naive audiophiles for fun and profit.
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post #25 of 41 Old 04-14-2014, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What kind of power? Test bench power or listening room power?
Incorrect. AVRs are rated at 100-150 wpc, with a pure steady sine wave, some just 2 channels, some all channels.
That's a pretty good representation of what to expect from the lightest weight AVR - 100-150 wpc 2 channels driven, resistive load, test signal = pure steady sine wave.
I'm referring to bench power. I've seen a lot of variability in the spec reporting for wpc on AVRs. Usually the AVR product literature describes the power handling as say "80wpc**" and then in fine print at the bottom "** 2 channels driven" or some variant thereof. I'm having difficulty finding a straightforward way to compare AVR power specs with that of 2-ch integrated or power amp specs which are usually reasonably close to their stated power handling.
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That's a suspicion that is pushed down the throat of naive audiophiles for fun and profit.
No doubt.
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post #26 of 41 Old 04-14-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Tatara View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What kind of power? Test bench power or listening room power?
Incorrect. AVRs are rated at 100-150 wpc, with a pure steady sine wave, some just 2 channels, some all channels.
That's a pretty good representation of what to expect from the lightest weight AVR - 100-150 wpc 2 channels driven, resistive load, test signal = pure steady sine wave.
I'm referring to bench power. I've seen a lot of variability in the spec reporting for wpc on AVRs. Usually the AVR product literature describes the power handling as say "80wpc**" and then in fine print at the bottom "** 2 channels driven" or some variant thereof. I'm having difficulty finding a straightforward way to compare AVR power specs with that of 2-ch integrated or power amp specs which are usually reasonably close to their stated power handling.

The worst case AVRs develop about the same amount of power as a comparable 2 channel integrated amp. As AVRs get heavier and more expensive, they approach having how ever many channels of amplification as they have, each with the power capability of one of the two channels of the 2 channel integrated amp.
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post #27 of 41 Old 04-14-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Tatara View Post

How would say a good multichannel AVR compare with a 2-ch integrated in terms of power? From what I've read recently on AVRs, they are usually rated around 100-150W distributed over all (7+ channels) whereas my integrated is 150W into 2 channels. Do AVRs have discrete amplifiers for each channel or is there some kind of load sharing? In terms of 2-ch music, would a multichannel AVR have all power available to the two main channels for music listening? I've been thinking about eventually replacing my integrated and external DAC with an AVR, but I have suspicions (probably unfounded) that an AVR won't hold up in terms of sound quality.

Well I've been putting my NAD C375BEE through it's paces and compared it a bit against my (older) H/K 520 AVR (that I have paired with an H/K PA2000). The H/K combo is 100 watts / channel - the NAD is 150 watts per channel. Both components cost roughly the same (though for the h/k that's two to one).

So far in my very limited, sighted (I'm the one doing the switching so of course I know what's playing) sound comparison - well, to me they both sound the same. I hear the same things on the same recordings, volume level is also precisely matched I might add (cause we know how a higher volume on one vs. the other can make one sound 'better' than the others). How do I match the volume, with the volume knob lol. How else? An SPL - a volt meter at the terminals. Waste of time. My ears and the volume control is more than good enough for me.

So why would you replace your integrated? You won't get better sound with the AVR/DAC combo. You most likely won't get worse sound either. Now, why did I buy an integrated? This NAD had some features I was after that my much older H/K didn't. And I don't trust modern AVRs - as Arnyk will tell you wink.gif , and since I"ll need to buy another AVR sooner than later anyway and the Integrated is so much smaller, lighter (well the NAD is pretty heavy actually) and extremely straight forward, it's a no brainer for me.

"it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"
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post #28 of 41 Old 04-15-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpt_Krunch View Post

So why would you replace your integrated? You won't get better sound with the AVR/DAC combo.
A few reasons, none of them related to sound quality:
  1. Age. My integrated is going on 20 years. It may last another 20, or it might stop working today. I'm sort of preparing for the inevitable.
  2. Convenience. With my current setup, if I change a video source, I need to switch source on the TV and DAC separately and the DAC doesn't have a remote. Using an AVR would simply source switching, reduce number of cables, and free up a shelf in my TV stand.
  3. Money. Based on the going used values of my integrated and DAC, I could sell them, purchase a new state-of-the-art AVR, and have a nice pile of money leftover.
  4. Bass management: I've been thinking of adding a sub.
  5. Room correction: I'm curious to try room EQ.
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And I don't trust modern AVRs

What aspect (quality, reliability, etc) don't you trust and why?
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post #29 of 41 Old 04-16-2014, 07:16 AM
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Hey Eric - welll, I have a Yamaha RX-V3800 - volume on the unit does not work, and an Onkyo TX-R 906 - HDMI board is giving me grief (again after a repair done a few weeks after I bought it). I think they are mass produced so much today, and at such a 'cheap' cost, that, well, you get what you pay for. I also have a Yamaha Receiver from 1993 and it works like it did when it was brand new. But back then, AVR's were not as common place as they are today (and simpler).

So you see, I will need a new AVR soon myself. I've seen a lot of people buying 20 (and older) year old stuff now. But based on #2, #3, and #4 - I'd get one in your shoes too. At least you have a need. Mine was/is the exact opposite. I use the NAD in my two channel rig so I don't need the 'video' of the AVR - hence why I got the integrated .

For an AVR - Marantz looks interesting, H/K is still at the top of my list too. I'm on the fence with Yamaha and Onkyo - forget it.

"it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"
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post #30 of 41 Old 04-16-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Kpt_Krunch View Post

Hey Eric - welll, I have a Yamaha RX-V3800 - volume on the unit does not work, and an Onkyo TX-R 906 - HDMI board is giving me grief (again after a repair done a few weeks after I bought it). I think they are mass produced so much today, and at such a 'cheap' cost, that, well, you get what you pay for. I also have a Yamaha Receiver from 1993 and it works like it did when it was brand new. But back then, AVR's were not as common place as they are today (and simpler).

You guys are going to make me stop thinking about replacing my "old reliable" 15+ year old Yamaha Integrated Amp biggrin.gif
I've started thinking about the day when I upgrade to HDMI and better (higher resolution) DACs, but I'm still enjoying great audio in the meantime smile.gif

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