Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 32 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #931 of 1767 Old 04-26-2014, 08:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crowley View Post

Thx, I look there weekly. Have not heard of Audio Research, will check them out. With high efficiency speakers, I don't need but 60 wpc.

I don't use tubes, but my understanding is that Audio Research is the go-to reference for tube amps, or at least one of them. Have you used tubes before? There's a bit more involved than just buying the amp and plugging it up, I heard enough details to steer me toward solid state. You may want how-to guidance from a good dealer before you jump feet first into tubes.

A good dealer might also be able to sell you a used one at a good cost, that he's checked out, or even refurbished. After ten years, many amps lose their potency and can't drive as well anymore. A dealer will also be able to give you support for what you buy from him.

Omar
OmarF is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #932 of 1767 Old 04-26-2014, 09:12 PM
Member
 
Steve Crowley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston,Tx
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

I don't use tubes, but my understanding is that Audio Research is the go-to reference for tube amps, or at least one of them. Have you used tubes before? There's a bit more involved than just buying the amp and plugging it up, I heard enough details to steer me toward solid state. You may want how-to guidance from a good dealer before you jump feet first into tubes.

Omar

I have a Grommes 20wpc tube amp/preamp from back in the 50's. Even have the monaural tuner with a nixie tube for measuring signal strength. Got it from my father back in the late 70's. I have a transformer that is leaking and inducing hum. Been trying to find schematics for it without drawing it out on paper. lol I liked the sound but it is starting to have problems and finding parts might be a tough find. Thanks for the input, you have a great knowledge base. I have rewired, capped, soldered, bottle brushed sockets and replaced pots till I'm blue in the face. Luckily there is an Ace Electronics here in Houston and they have just about every component.

Klipsch so much it Hz
Steve Crowley is offline  
post #933 of 1767 Old 04-26-2014, 09:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Crowley View Post

I have a Grommes 20wpc tube amp/preamp from back in the 50's. Even have the monaural tuner with a nixie tube for measuring signal strength. Got it from my father back in the late 70's. I have a transformer that is leaking and inducing hum. Been trying to find schematics for it without drawing it out on paper. lol I liked the sound but it is starting to have problems and finding parts might be a tough find. Thanks for the input, you have a great knowledge base. I have rewired, capped, soldered, bottle brushed sockets and replaced pots till I'm blue in the face. Luckily there is an Ace Electronics here in Houston and they have just about every component.

LOL
Sounds like you know what the hell you're doing! :-)
OmarF is offline  
post #934 of 1767 Old 04-26-2014, 11:30 PM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

LOL

You are not affected by music bias?

Do you mean hearing bias? Of course I'm affected by it just like everyone else.

[quote[Is that possible?

LOL[/quote]

I don't believe so. It is possible to alter expectations and that can change the way we react to sound.
FMW is online now  
post #935 of 1767 Old 04-26-2014, 11:33 PM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,865
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 276 Post(s)
Liked: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post


English is not my first language, but doesn't "come to grip" mean acknowledge the existence of something and make peace with it?

Yes that is exactly what it means. Sorry for the American slang.
antoniobiz1 likes this.
FMW is online now  
post #936 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 01:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post


To be honest, the biggest mistake I made was selling my PS3. I failed to appreciate what a capable, mature platform it is. I might just buy another one even though it too is "obsolete."


 

I'll tell you, the PS3 had a great picture. I've bought three of them, and still have two. As I mentioned somewhere previously, for years, the only playback device Joe Kane would use was a PS3, because it was the only one that met his output specifications. One thing I'll say, the OPPOs have a better picture output than the PS3--its a slight difference, but once you see it you recognize it. The Sony has a slight rolloff in the higher white frequencies, where the OPPO's output is linear. This becomes apparent when doing quick A/B'ing of the two. The PS3 has a very, very slight softness to edge details and the brighter parts of the picture, that gives it a kind of pleasing cinematic feel. But when you see the OPPO present the same thing, the picture appears crisper, details are more easily apparent. A good film to use for this comparison is Let the Right One In. Fabulously filmed outdoor snow scenes. Having run both through all the test patterns in DVE numerous times, I would say that they are fundamentally identical in all other respects. I know about the PS3's rolloff because it had been measured some time ago in a BR shootout, where it was found to be the best BR player.

Omar
OmarF is offline  
post #937 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 06:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
SMHarman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 521
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNYC View Post

Mark, what bothers me about storing files on a hard drive is that the failure rate of hard drives is far above the failure rate of Blu-ray disc media. One poster here talked about copying all his CDs to disk and then getting rid of the CDs. I think that is shortsighted and foolish.  I can understand copying things onto a server for convenient access, but trusting a hard drive to store downloaded files?  I think that is a disaster waiting to happen.
word 1 RAID
Word 2 Backup. Of course if they don't rot the silver disks are a backup.
SMHarman is online now  
post #938 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 07:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
trans_lux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In my theater
Posts: 971
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post

word 1 RAID
Word 2 Backup. Of course if they don't rot the silver disks are a backup.

Grab a Synology box-my current fav is the http://www.synology.com/en-us/products/spec/DS1813++-load it up with at least 3 HD -raid 5 or if you want to be nearly bullet proof 6 HD raid 10- Seagate Enterprise grade drives- my current fav is http://www.provantage.com/seagate-st6000nm0024~7SEGS2MQ.htm
Short of theft or a catastrophic event-fire, flood etc. you will be in a good position for a very long time.

I would say the HD storage has a longer life as its likely over time that your would you would migrate your data to cheaper larger and larger storage devices.

I also think that nearly free high capacity cloud storage is here/right around the corner.
I have TB of data stored on Amazon S3 and pay a relatively small amount.

The shelf life of prerecorded CD's was initially touted as 40 years or more. The library of congress has done an extensive study and states that it could be as low as 25 years. Environmental conditions can have a major impact. You can read the full exhaustive study here http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/rt/CDservicelife_rev.pdf

One other study I found interesting was that unrecorded discs have roughly 1/2 the life span than one that were burned with data.

All I know is that I have hundreds of LD with rot that causes image and audio distortion. frown.gif
trans_lux is offline  
post #939 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 07:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

Grab a Synology box-my current fav is the http://www.synology.com/en-us/products/spec/DS1813++-load it up with at least 3 HD -raid 5 or if you want to be nearly bullet proof 6 HD raid 10- Seagate Enterprise grade drives- my current fav is http://www.provantage.com/seagate-st6000nm0024~7SEGS2MQ.htm
Short of theft or a catastrophic event-fire, flood etc. you will be in a good position for a very long time.

I would say the HD storage has a longer life as its likely over time that your would you would migrate your data to cheaper larger and larger storage devices.

I also think that nearly free high capacity cloud storage is here/right around the corner.
I have TB of data stored on Amazon S3 and pay a relatively small amount.

The shelf life of prerecorded CD's was initially touted as 40 years or more. The library of congress has done an extensive study and states that it could be as low as 25 years. Environmental conditions can have a major impact. You can read the full exhaustive study here http://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/rt/CDservicelife_rev.pdf

One other study I found interesting was that unrecorded discs have roughly 1/2 the life span than one that were burned with data.

All I know is that I have hundreds of LD with rot that causes image and audio distortion. frown.gif

Indeed...light, heat, dust...SCRATCHES(!)...are all enemies of the disc. My poor Sea Change DVDA has the faintest scratch on it, now several tracks are ruined :-( ...Luckily, I have it iso'ed! Even more robust for long term storage may be SSD drives. At this time they're certainly not as cost effective, but once data is written to them it's pretty permanent. No moving parts means less chance of failure. They don't like to be continuously written and rewritten to, but once written to, can be reread thousands of times with no problem.

Omar
Omar
OmarF is offline  
post #940 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 07:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RobertR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 6,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post


The shelf life of prerecorded CD's was initially touted as 40 years or more. The library of congress has done an extensive study and states that it could be as low as 25 years.
I have CDs that are over 30 years old and show no signs of deterioration. Sounds like a flawed study to me.

Edit: Looks like the study was for CD Roms, not commercially pressed CDs. Also, the study states: "The mean lifetime for the disc population as a whole was calculated to
be 776 years for the discs used in this study."
Quote:
All I know is that I have hundreds of LD with rot that causes image and audio distortion. frown.gif
CDs are nowhere near as prone to rot as LDs were.
RobertR is online now  
post #941 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 08:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
We can all have diverging opinions on performance/dollar ratio of audio gear , but as long as some companies are selling a single audio isolation pad for 800 ( Yikesssss... andI won't name them!) , high end audio will still be alive. But "alive" doesn't make it more relevant, nor current...
BarracudaDelGato likes this.

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #942 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 08:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

We can all have diverging opinions on performance/dollar ratio of audio gear , but as long as some companies are selling a single audio isolation pad for 800 ( Yikesssss... andI won't name them!) , high end audio will still be alive. But "alive" doesn't make it more relevant, nor current...

Aren't those something like rubber doormats? smile.gif

Omar
imagic and Aarghon like this.
OmarF is offline  
post #943 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 08:22 AM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Ahaha should try true rubber mats for sure and compare them!!

I can accept that isolation/decoupling will help bring out the sound quality a little.. In fact, I'm considering buying auralex subdudes for my subwoofers... But at 50$ , the risk isn't big. If it brings nothing, I won't cry and won't need to take a loan.

But I really find it indecent that this kind of companies uses marketing B.S weaponry on us and tries to make us believe that a mat that costs 16x the price will actually bring more to the table...

For that single case alone, even if high end gear maybe bring some benefits, it should at least bring mefiance to everyone and raise awareness that price isn't always in correlation with quality...

Blunt argumentation I know, but blunt is simple, and sometimes we do need bluntness to shake shhheetttt up.

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #944 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 08:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
"The exterior or skin of a ***** is coated with a catalyzed blend of rubber and cyclonically exploded glass, which is used to help limit static electricity, electromagnetic interference (EMI), and radio frequency interference (RFI)."

cyclonically exploded glass you say? Ah, now we know what they've done with all that shattered glass following Katerina biggrin.gif

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #945 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 11:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
OmarF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 718
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

"The exterior or skin of a ***** is coated with a catalyzed blend of rubber and cyclonically exploded glass, which is used to help limit static electricity, electromagnetic interference (EMI), and radio frequency interference (RFI)."

cyclonically exploded glass you say? Ah, now we know what they've done with all that shattered glass following Katerina biggrin.gif

Maybe they'll throw in a free black marker (regularly $59.99) so you can color the edges of your CDs.
Aarghon likes this.
OmarF is offline  
post #946 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 02:41 PM
Senior Member
 
nx211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

And most importantly, do you think high-end audio is obsolete?

Well, I don't believe that it will ever be rendered obsolete. There is a huge pool of wealthy people out there that grows larger every year who can afford expensive audio gear and will continue to purchase that gear and keep that industry alive and well. And the reason that they buy that gear, whether a real or imagined difference of audio performance beyond that offered by lesser priced gear is a subject of personal opinion, personal experience and individual aptitude.

Personally, I can tell a sonic difference between my Mcintosh tube amp and my NAD solid-state amps, and a number of other solid state amps that I've heard or owned over the years. To my ears and mind, that Macintosh tube amp is *absolutely* more natural sounding and "warmer" than my NAD amps could ever hope to be. And NAD is considered to be an audiophile grade brand!

In *general*, to my ears and mind, solid-state amplification has an unnatural electronic "etch" to the sound that they produce. And it typically gets worse the louder you play the gear. I try and tame it somewhat on my NADs by a -2db cut with the treble knob. However I just simply live with the "imperfection" and don't focus on it and am ok with it, more or less. I'm not about to purchase Macintosh mono blocks for each of my surround sound channels in my home theater. And even if I could afford to do so, I wouldn't because it's simply not that important for playing back movie soundtracks. With a good portion of one's mind diverted to watching what's on the screen, I don't believe it to be much of a problem at all. It's just secondary sound supplementing what's happening on the screen. The focus is still what's happening on the screen.

Additionally, I even currently use my NADs for 2-channel audio CD playback and it's fine for now. I don't even have my Macintosh tube amp currently hooked up, although, it is on the to do list.

Do I believe that the more expensive an audio component is, the better it will always sound? Hardly, I believe that to be seldom true. The more expensive you go, *potentially* the more refined and lifelike the sound *can* be. I have a friend who has a Lexicon amp and pre-amp and I can *absolutely* tell the difference between his gear and my NADs. His solid state Lexicon gear, to my ears and mind, sounds very close to the warm natural sound of my Mcintosh tube gear.

However, I believe that there are far more companies out there that try and give the appearance of exotic, audiophile grade distinctive engineering and performance, but in fact offer very little if any sonic engineering superiority and at best only offer a "different" sound, if even that. For example, I believe the ability of a pair of speakers to offer excellent center stage imaging has more to do with the capability of the recording engineers involved and the mike placement at the time the recording was made, then some special, unique speaker driver construction made from exotic materials from some far away land. Sure, the faster and more rigid a speaker driver is the more accurate its performance will be and the more music it can distinctly render, especially during periods of demanding musical passages, but at what point do you run into the law of diminishing returns? I believe the answer to that question is unique to the individual. There is no magical threshold. If you can hear a difference, and it sounds better to you, and you can afford it, then go for it!

So do you get what you pay for with higher-priced audio gear? Sometimes you do, but a lot of the times, you don't - *caveat emptor*.
OmarF likes this.
nx211 is offline  
post #947 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 03:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Pet Motel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DeKalb, IL.
Posts: 471
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 63
"I can *absolutely* tell the difference between his gear and my NADs"

I should certainly hope so biggrin.gif!

I've been there, thought that, as well as many others up to the point where they performed bias controlled listening tests.

A couple of items I would question, is there a substantial difference in the acoustics between the listening spaces you are comparing? Do you believe that audio memory is insignificant, or that you might be susceptible to that fallibility, and that of a natural bias towards the more expensive, or the tube gear? There are a number of reasons your comparisons might be considered of little value, particularly to others. Such is the nature of audio comparisons.

Heavily addicted SACDBA member, starting the twelve steps tomorrow!
Jay
Pet Motel is offline  
post #948 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 03:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 14,457
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Liked: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

cyclonically exploded glass you say?

Substitute sugar for glass. Call it "Cotton Candy". You can make a fortune. biggrin.gif
Aarghon likes this.
Ratman is online now  
post #949 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 03:27 PM
Member
 
avincent52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
OP:
I'm really glad you like your system. If it makes you and your friends and family happy, that's what it's about.

But you're setting up a straw man argument, invoking crazy-priced--and just crazy--gear like those arc-welder Krells and room divider Apogees, and Mercedes-priced Wilsons, as representative of the high end.

As one of the guys who wrote (about music) for Stereophile when you were reading it, let me tell my own story.

A guy I worked with introduced me to high end a few years earlier. He lent me TAS and Stereophile, and invited me to listen to his system.

I walked into the room but didn't see speakers. His Magneplanars, it seems, blocked both windows in his apartment, so had to be moved back into position every time he listened.

The Audio Research tubes needed to be warmed up, but not for too long lest we wear out the tubes. And his Linn Turntable sat on a Sound Organization table behind the speakers, so that every time you dropped the needle, you'd risk stepping on a springy floorboard and having the expensive cartridge bounce across...Jazz at the Pawnshop or the Sheffield Drum Record or some other music-free audiophile chestnut.

He taught me a lot. Including what not to do. So my initial system consisted of Spicas and solid state, but more to the point, I played it constantly. I've since graduated to tubes, but I don't fret about warm up or wear out. I listened to what I like, and discovered hundreds of records that combined great music and great sound. (Try Muddy Waters "Folk Singer") I use my system as a tool for playing music.

I think it's a question of definitions. You seem to be defining "high end" as anything that's expensive and fussy. My definition: the high end is the pursuit of realistic musical reproduction using the most sensitive measuring devices: the human ears. This isn't anything radical; after all a restaurant reviewer doesn't pull out a mass spectrometer to decide if an appetizer is good. She just tastes it.

IMHO, money, and even medium, are beside the point. I'm overjoyed that companies ---American companies BTW---like Schiit and Grado, VPI and Woo and Zu are producing amazing high-end gear (especially in the headphone realm) at very reasonable price points.

No, you're not going to get pant flapping bass from these systems, but if you keep an open mind, and open ears, you'll find a lot of music there.

Obsolete? Hardly.
Evolved? It's only natural.
avincent52 is offline  
post #950 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 03:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Milt99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Of California
Posts: 5,138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

Maybe they'll throw in a free black marker (regularly $59.99) so you can color the edges of your CDs.
Black does not work. It has to be green.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

Milt99 is offline  
post #951 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RobertR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 6,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Black does not work. It has to be green.
But only green ink made by Tibetan monks.
BarracudaDelGato likes this.
RobertR is online now  
post #952 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:19 PM
Member
 
Naughtilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 161

Howdy folks. 

 

Can someone briefly sum up the past 30 pages so I can catch up?

 

Cheers

Naughtilus is offline  
post #953 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
What a funny first entry!!! High end entry you did.
Naughtilus likes this.

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #954 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:32 PM
Senior Member
 
nx211's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

Howdy folk. 

Can someone briefly sum up the past 30 pages so I can catch up?

Cheers

Everybody here enjoys listening to music and/or watching movies on their 2 channel audio or home theater systems. Some people are happy with less expensive gear, other people prefer more expensive audio equipment.



nx211
Aarghon and Naughtilus like this.
nx211 is offline  
post #955 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:44 PM
Member
 
Naughtilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 161

I'll be productive and copy paste ;) a long quote, an interview with Stereophile's founder Gordon Holt on the topic of Hi-End audio.

 

Quote:
To celebrate Stereophile's 30th anniversary, Gordon gave a speech at a dinner the magazine hosted at the 1992 Consumer Electronics Show in Chicago. The text of that speech was reprinted in our September 1992 issue, and it makes for disturbing reading:
"We seem to have come to a tacit agreement that it's no longer necessary, or even desirable, for a home music system to sound like the real thing. We speak in hushed and reverent tones about reproducing the ineffable beauty of music, when in fact much real music is harsh and vulgar and ugly. We design the all-important musical midrange out of our equipment in order to try—vainly, I might add—to recreate the illusion of three-dimensional space through what is essentially a two- dimensional reproducer. And whenever we hear a loudspeaker or a CD player that shows subversive signs of sounding more 'alive' or 'realistic' than most, we dismiss it out of hand as being too 'forward' or 'aggressive.' As if a lot of real music isn't forward and aggressive!
"The idea that all we are trying to do is make equipment that gives the listener some sort of magical emotional response to a mystical experience called 'music' is all well and good, but it isn't what High End is all about. In fact, high fidelity was originally a reaction to the gorgeously rich-sounding console 'boom boxes' that dominated the home-music market during the 1940s!
"We've lost our direction....The High End in 1992 is a multi-million-dollar business. But it's an empty triumph, because we haven't accomplished what we set out to do. The playback still doesn't sound 'just like the real thing.' People, let's start getting back to basics. Let's put the 're' back into 'reproduction.' Let's promote products that dare to sound as 'alive' and 'aggressive' as the music they are trying to reproduce."
Strong stuff. Fifteen years later, Gordon is comfortably retired in Boulder, Colorado. 
I e-mailed him Labor Day to ask him about that 1992 polemic. My questions are in italics, followed by Gordon's unexpurgated answers (footnote 2).
 
Do you still feel the high-end audio industry has lost its way in the manner you described 15 years ago?
Not in the same manner; there's no hope now. Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.
Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.
I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.
With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left.
As you were so committed to surround, do you feel that the commercial failures of DVD-Audio and SACD could have been avoided?
I doubt it. No audio product has ever succeeded because it was better, only because it was cheaper, smaller, or easier to use. Your generation of music lovers will probably be the last that even think about fidelity.
Judging by online forums and by the e-mail I receive, there are currently three areas of passion for audiophiles: vinyl playback, headphone listening, and music servers. Are you surprised by this?
I find them all boring, but nothing surprises me any more.
Do you see any signs of future vitality in high-end audio?
Vitality? Don't make me laugh. Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me, because I am associated by so many people with the mess my disciples made of spreading my gospel. For the record: I never, ever claimed that measurements don't matter. What I said (and very often, at that) was, they don't always tell the whole story. Not quite the same thing.
Remember those loudspeaker shoot-outs we used to have during our annual writer gatherings in Santa Fe? The frequent occasions when various reviewers would repeatedly choose the same loudspeaker as their favorite (or least-favorite) model? That was all the proof needed that [blind] testing does work, aside from the fact that it's (still) the only honest kind. It also suggested that simple ear training, with DBT confirmation, could have built the kind of listening confidence among talented reviewers that might have made a world of difference in the outcome of high-end audio.
Yet you achieved so much, Gordon.
I know I did, and my whole excuse for it—a love for the sound of live classical music—lost its relevance in the US within 10 years. I was done in by time, history, and the most spoiled, destructive generation of irresponsible brats the world has ever seen. (I refer, of course, to the Boomers.)
Pet Motel likes this.
Naughtilus is offline  
post #956 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
Hmmm Ouch? But I must say that If I take heed of his words, audio lost it because of arrogance. But he seems to be somehow arrogant... That read troubled me haha

PS: it indeed was realllly interesting!

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #957 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 04:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
Aarghon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 813
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 303
And I think he asked for a global consensus about what good sound is. Heyyyyyy... Human kind can't even arrive at a consensus for what is good for it's own evolution, can't be on the same line of thought about how much religion is needeed/ destructive, can't come to a global market because every one sees the global market in question differently... I think it's a fairy wish to unite everyone under the same banner, especially about something sooo personal as music appreciation... Bass head exists, some people like it clean and clear, so how exactly a general ideology can be drawn?

And to the opposite, I think the more different ideas on the matter we have, the more the audio field can advance... Because when people have different views, the more questions it brings. And when we put different ideas in a melting pot, usually great things are bound to happen.
Naughtilus likes this.

Energy Rc-70 fronts, Energy Rc-70 surrounds, Energy veritas 5.2c, Energy rc-mini heights
Dual Reaction-Audio BPS212
Pioneer Elite sc-61 AVR
Pioneer Elite n50 network player
Marantz CD6004 cd player
Marantz UD5007 Blu ray player
Panasonic Tcl55dt60 led tv , Playstation 3 and a lot of old consoles
Aarghon is online now  
post #958 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 05:02 PM
Member
 
Naughtilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 161

@Aarghon

 

Expected from such a "Hi-Fi aristocrat". 

 

He says Fidelity is irrelevant to music in a bitter patronizing skepticism. I actually think that Music is irrelevant to fidelity

 

Musicians listen to music on very lo-fi gear and yet they have no problem communicating and relating to it. My best emotional connection with music was through my Sony Discman and pair of cheap headphones. I didn't need spatiality and PRaT to enjoy music. I didn't need viagra Gordon, I was young!

 

Anyways.

 

Yeah. He is a sourpuss.

Aarghon likes this.
Naughtilus is offline  
post #959 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 05:09 PM
Member
 
Goalline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 21
What about an audio publication that specializes in double blind tests as a vital part of its reviews. Would anyone buy it?
Goalline is offline  
post #960 of 1767 Old 04-27-2014, 05:10 PM
Member
 
Naughtilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 144
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 161

I don't need my B&W and Roksan to enjoy this song. I'd love it even through a mono laptop speaker. 

 

Naughtilus is offline  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

Tags
Pioneer Elite Sc 55 Sc55 9 1 Channel 3d Ready A V Receiver , Crown Audio Xti 2002 475w Stereo Power Amplifier 20hz To 20khz Frequency Response 1 4vrms Input Sens , Behringer B215xl Passive Speaker Pair , Monster Clarity Hd Model One High Definition Multi Media Speaker Monitor , Krk Rokit Powered 10 3 Pair Mid Field 3 Way Powered Studio Monitors 10 Inch , Pioneer Andrew Jones Sp Fs52 Flr Stand Loudspeaker , Lepai Lp A6 Hi Fi Stereo Mosfet Amplifier 20 Watt Rms With Sanyos Chip La4636 , Kaleidescape Cinema One Ultimate Movie Server Silver
Gear in this thread - 475w by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off