Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 35 - AVS Forum
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post #1021 of 1844 Old 04-28-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

As I understand it, the whole point of time-aligning the speakers is so one driver, the tweeter, doesn't overshadow the other drivers and thus cause an exaggerated high end. What other pragmatic purpose to time aligning the drivers would there be?

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post #1022 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 05:02 AM
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In Wikipedia Hi-End audio is explained as:

 

High-end audio is a class of consumer home audio equipment marketed to audiophiles on the basis of high price or quality, and esoteric or novel sound reproduction technologies. The term can refer simply to the price, to the build quality of the components, or to the subjective or objective quality of sound reproduction. The distinction between the terms high-end and high-fidelity (hi-fi) is not well defined. According to one industry commentator, high-end could be defined as "gear below which’s price and performance one could not go without compromising the music and the sound".

 

 

On Wikipedia Rega is declared as a Hi-End Audio manufacturer.

'Rega Research Ltd. is a high-end audio equipment manufacturer based in the UK'.

 

I thought it was budget gear for audiophiles, strictly Hi-Fi. Any $100K components by Rega out there?

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post #1023 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's quite likely that most speakers sound bright to you because you are used to the "laid back" sound of your chosen brand/model. It has nothing to do with whether the tweeter is time-aligned or not.

As I understand it, the whole point of time-aligning the speakers is so one driver, the tweeter, doesn't overshadow the other drivers and thus cause an exaggerated high end. What other pragmatic purpose to time aligning the drivers would there be?

The whole point of time-aligning drivers is to facilitate smooth frequency response. Ensuring that one driver does not overshadow another is done by ensuring that each driver's output has the correct amplitude, and that can be done with attenuators or simple resistor networks.

Referencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment

All loudspeaker drivers have a property called their "Acoustic Center". The Acoustic Center of a driver is an imaginary place where it seems that all sound produced by the speaker driver radiates out from. Usually a good first estimate of the location of the acoustic center of a loudspeaker is the based on the location of the voice coil.




The Wikipeida article is really good and complete. It covers both electrical and physical time alignment which can in many cases accomplish the same outcome. Electrical networks can have the effect of effectively aligning speaker drivers that are not physically aligned.

The article also points out that the purpose of time-aligning the drivers relates to both on-axis and off-axis response.
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post #1024 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

That's probably your ears getting used to the initial sound. I'm pretty sure you can't burn-in an amp.

Did you miss the part where I said I had the same experience with the new amp? Not new receiver. It was the same amp but brand new. How would i get use to something again that I've been listening to since 2011? The difference in sound after many hours used is very obvious.


The same changes happened with both amps.

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post #1025 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The whole point of time-aligning drivers is to facilitate smooth frequency response. Ensuring that one driver does not overshadow another is done by ensuring that each driver's output has the correct amplitude, and that can be done with attenuators or simple resistor networks.

Referencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment

All loudspeaker drivers have a property called their "Acoustic Center". The Acoustic Center of a driver is an imaginary place where it seems that all sound produced by the speaker driver radiates out from. Usually a good first estimate of the location of the acoustic center of a loudspeaker is the based on the location of the voice coil.




The Wikipeida article is really good and complete. It covers both electrical and physical time alignment which can in many cases accomplish the same outcome. Electrical networks can have the effect of effectively aligning speaker drivers that are not physically aligned.

The article also points out that the purpose of time-aligning the drivers relates to both on-axis and off-axis response.

Perfect, thanks for the explanation.

Omar
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post #1026 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's quite likely that most speakers sound bright to you because you are used to the "laid back" sound of your chosen brand/model. It has nothing to do with whether the tweeter is time-aligned or not.


The high end is littered with very bright sounding speakers. I have heard quite a few of them. It is not a pleasurable experience. I have my thoughts as to why, but will keep them to myself.

Louder is NOT better!
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post #1027 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's quite likely that most speakers sound bright to you because you are used to the "laid back" sound of your chosen brand/model. It has nothing to do with whether the tweeter is time-aligned or not.


The high end is littered with very bright sounding speakers. I have heard quite a few of them. It is not a pleasurable experience. I have my thoughts as to why, but will keep them to myself.


Yes, I forgot that there are other reasons why high-end speakers might be a bit bright. 

Taken from a FB discussion that went down this morning...

Quote:

"Just heard the best term ever to describe certain audio products' sound profile. Ready? "Adolescent Bass." Perfect, Amiright?" Lauren Dragan (Sight & Sound)...

 

"Could we also use "Geriatric Treble" for certain other sound profiles." Geoff Morrison (CNET)


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post #1028 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

The high end is littered with very bright sounding speakers. I have heard quite a few of them. It is not a pleasurable experience. I have my thoughts as to why, but will keep them to myself.

I think people respond to brightness as clarity and resolution. I do. Personally, I like bright speakers. I always have.
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post #1029 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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The high end is littered with very bright sounding speakers. I have heard quite a few of them. It is not a pleasurable experience. I have my thoughts as to why, but will keep them to myself.

I think people respond to brightness as clarity and resolution. I do. Personally, I like bright speakers. I always have.

 

The Monster Clarity HD speakers I talked about in the article follow that exact design philosophy. They have a measurable bump in the upper treble and are sold as HD audio-compatible speakers. Just about every reviewer recommends setting the treble adjustment at -3dB because they are so bright, and I agree. The monster Clarity HD is a time-aligned self-powered design, for what it's worth.


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post #1030 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's quite likely that most speakers sound bright to you because you are used to the "laid back" sound of your chosen brand/model. It has nothing to do with whether the tweeter is time-aligned or not.


The high end is littered with very bright sounding speakers. I have heard quite a few of them. It is not a pleasurable experience. I have my thoughts as to why, but will keep them to myself.

Speakers with measured flat on-axis response tend to sound bright. Speakers with flat power response even more so. Speakers will limited bass extension, ditto.
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post #1031 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Did you miss the part where I said I had the same experience with the new amp? Not new receiver. It was the same amp but brand new. How would i get use to something again that I've been listening to since 2011? The difference in sound after many hours used is very obvious.


The same changes happened with both amps.

While I can't speculate on what might be causing your perceived difference in sound between your original amp and your new amp, I'd think that as there are (ostensibly) no moving parts in your equipment, there isn't anything to burn in. I did a little reading and it seems capacitors can deteriorate over time, but that usually takes a LONG time, i.e. decades, before it creates a noticeable problem.
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post #1032 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

While I can't speculate on what might be causing your perceived difference in sound between your original amp and your new amp, I'd think that as there are (ostensibly) no moving parts in your equipment, there isn't anything to burn in. I did a little reading and it seems capacitors can deteriorate over time, but that usually takes a LONG time, i.e. decades, before it creates a noticeable problem.

Question: Is it possible that electronic parts can take time to function to their maximum capacity? For example, will a newly minted capacitor load to 100% of its capacitance on its first use, or is it possible there's some kind of curve to it consistently reaching its maximum performance--a break in period so to speak?

Omar
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post #1033 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OmarF View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

While I can't speculate on what might be causing your perceived difference in sound between your original amp and your new amp, I'd think that as there are (ostensibly) no moving parts in your equipment, there isn't anything to burn in. I did a little reading and it seems capacitors can deteriorate over time, but that usually takes a LONG time, i.e. decades, before it creates a noticeable problem.

Question: Is it possible that electronic parts can take time to function to their maximum capacity? For example, will a newly minted capacitor load to 100% of its capacitance on its first use, or is it possible there's some kind of curve to it consistently reaching its maximum performance--a break in period so to speak?

Omar

 

These guys say their capacitors take up to 100 hours to break in and that it's measurable...

http://www.sozocapacitors.com/break_in.html


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post #1034 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 11:49 AM
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These guys say capacitors take up to 100 hours to break in and that it's measurable...

http://www.sozocapacitors.com/break_in.html

Well...there would be evidence that electronics *do* break in. Fascinating, Captain...fascinating.
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Well...there would be evidence that electronics *do* break in. Fascinating, Captain...fascinating.

I am willing to consider that break-in for components is a real effect, but at the prices top gear commands that should be part of the manufacturing process. Or if they must, hang another 10% on the price
to offset the cost. It's like buying a car with wet paint. Can't really tell what you are getting.

Tubes I can testify have a notable burn-in period.

When I get a chance I will take another listen to the Thiels.
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post #1036 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

Well...there would be evidence that electronics *do* break in. Fascinating, Captain...fascinating.

Fascinating indeed. Just shows that one can apparently make money with everything. Why would any sane person design a capacitor in such a way? Totally unnecessary. But fools and their money. ...
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post #1037 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 12:16 PM
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I am willing to consider that break-in for components is a real effect, but at the prices top gear commands that should be part of the manufacturing process. Or if they must, hang another 10% on the price
to offset the cost. It's like buying a car with wet paint. Can't really tell what you are getting.

Tubes I can testify have a notable burn-in period.

When I get a chance I will take another listen to the Thiels.

Hey, even a $100k car needs to be broken in...

Omar
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Fascinating indeed. Just shows that one can apparently make money with everything. Why would any sane person design a capacitor in such a way? Totally unnecessary. But fools and their money. ...

The answer might be, "You can't change the laws of physics, Captain!" :-D
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I am willing to consider that break-in for components is a real effect, but at the prices top gear commands that should be part of the manufacturing process. Or if they must, hang another 10% on the price
to offset the cost. It's like buying a car with wet paint. Can't really tell what you are getting.

Tubes I can testify have a notable burn-in period.

When I get a chance I will take another listen to the Thiels.


Regarding trying the Thiels again, how they sound for you may be greatly affected by some factors:

1) what kind of source and pre/amp are you hooking up to them? Some gear plays nicer together than others.
2) how is your room/seating arranged? Any treatments in the room? Do you have what would be called an active room? A dead room?
3) What kind of music would you be using them for, mostly? Rock and roll? Other speakers may be better. Jazz or classical? Theils should sound great.

Omar
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post #1040 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 12:30 PM
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Hey, even a $100k car needs to be broken in...

Omar

Good point. But electronics and speakers would be easy to break in. Cars much less so. That would be funny, pay an extra $10K for a car with 5000 miles because it is all broken in.
My issue is that if I am to select gear on the way it sounds, it must be ready to go. What if it burns in to perform in a way I do not like? The benefit of the doubt only goes so far.

Krell was the most striking -- after half an hour of disappointment I was told the preamp hadn't been burned in, and for real performance it needed the $7K upgrade boards, which would
also need to be burned in. And they offered a store credit if I wasn't pleased within 60 days, but that dealer had nothing else I would consider.

Does not seem like a good way to do business, especially when burn in is a matter of hooking it up and running it for a few days for it leaves the factory. Or even the dealership.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

While I can't speculate on what might be causing your perceived difference in sound between your original amp and your new amp, I'd think that as there are (ostensibly) no moving parts in your equipment, there isn't anything to burn in. I did a little reading and it seems capacitors can deteriorate over time, but that usually takes a LONG time, i.e. decades, before it creates a noticeable problem.


Question: Is it possible that electronic parts can take time to function to their maximum capacity? For example, will a newly minted capacitor load to 100% of its capacitance on its first use, or is it possible there's some kind of curve to it consistently reaching its maximum performance--a break in period so to speak?


Omar

These guys say their capacitors take up to 100 hours to break in and that it's measurable...

http://www.sozocapacitors.com/break_in.html

They don't say what they are measuring, so it is all a mystery.

IME there is no such thing as an appreciable break in period for well designed electronic components.
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post #1042 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 12:41 PM
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They don't say what they are measuring, so it is all a mystery.

IME there is no such thing as an appreciable break in period for well designed electronic components.

I think that is the key -- at the design level these issues should be resolved.
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Good point. But electronics and speakers would be easy to break in. Cars much less so. That would be funny, pay an extra $10K for a car with 5000 miles because it is all broken in.
My issue is that if I am to select gear on the way it sounds, it must be ready to go. What if it burns in to perform in a way I do not like? The benefit of the doubt only goes so far.

Krell was the most striking -- after half an hour of disappointment I was told the preamp hadn't been burned in, and for real performance it needed the $7K upgrade boards, which would
also need to be burned in. And they offered a store credit if I wasn't pleased within 60 days, but that dealer had nothing else I would consider.

Does not seem like a good way to do business, especially when burn in is a matter of hooking it up and running it for a few days for it leaves the factory. Or even the dealership.

You need a different dealer.

Break in won't change stuff like night and day. It just makes it a little smoother, and a little more resonant. Say 10% ballpark. Most improvement comes from selecting gear that's suited to what you want and that works well together in the space that you have. Figuring that out is the dealer's damn job! If he can't do it, you should find someone else.

Omar
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post #1044 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:09 PM
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That is fair -- if I don't like it out of the box I probably won't like it burned in, but the point would be moot if burn in wasn't necessary.
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post #1045 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by OmarF View Post

The answer might be, "You can't change the laws of physics, Captain!" :-D

I know enough about capacitors to know that the laws of physics don't require building crap capacitors.
Just think for a second: how are you going to do any type of quality control if you build crap like that. 100 hours break in? Bollocks.
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post #1046 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:28 PM
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Does not seem like a good way to do business, especially when burn in is a matter of hooking it up and running it for a few days for it leaves the factory. Or even the dealership.
It is an excellent way to do business, if you want to discourage returns!

Think of it a different way. Why doesn't some manufacturer claim his components are already broken in, even though he doesn't really do it? "Our products sound right straight out of the box. Who knows whether you'll like our competitors' products after they've burned in?"

The reason they don't do this is that the only point of "burn-in" is to discourage returns. Burn-in is for suckers.

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #1047 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:33 PM
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If electronics requires break in before its right what keeps this said process from continuing till the sound is completely altered and thats why I don't believe it.
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post #1048 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:39 PM
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It is an excellent way to do business, if you want to discourage returns!

Think of it a different way. Why doesn't some manufacturer claim his components are already broken in, even though he doesn't really do it? "Our products sound right straight out of the box. Who knows whether you'll like our competitors' products after they've burned in?"

The reason they don't do this is that the only point of "burn-in" is to discourage returns. Burn-in is for suckers.

Interesting -- I supposed it was because these companies tend to be small and adding a lengthy room consuming process, albeit a simple one was cost prohibitive. I think Omar's thought is reasonable, do not expect great improvements from burn in. Frankly I find it distracting and hurts the image of the gear. Just can't tell what the performance really is. Is burn-in for suckers -- well, you have a point.
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post #1049 of 1844 Old 04-29-2014, 01:43 PM
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Interesting -- I supposed it was because these companies tend to be small and adding a lengthy room consuming process, albeit a simple one was cost prohibitive. I think Omar's thought is reasonable, do not expect great improvements from burn in. Frankly I find it distracting and hurts the image of the gear. Just can't tell what the performance really is. Is burn-in for suckers -- well, you have a point.

Does someone have a few links to various companies that state burn in time requirements as part of a quick start guide?

I have heard talk of burn in countless times but never from a company rep or my dealer.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?
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