Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 36 - AVS Forum
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post #1051 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 12:46 PM
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I supposed it was because these companies tend to be small and adding a lengthy room consuming process, albeit a simple one was cost prohibitive.
But it's not cost-prohibitive to simply make the claim. So why doesn't anybody do this?

If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.—The High-End Creed

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post #1052 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


Does someone have a few links to various companies that state burn in time requirements as part of a quick start guide?

I have heard talk of burn in countless times but never from a company rep or my dealer.

 

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

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post #1053 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?

 

You can buy it on Amazon, it's on a Blu-ray that's part of a box set (Disc 5), if you survive the sticker shock...


http://www.amazon.com/The-Dark-Side-Moon-Immersion/dp/B004ZNARH4


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post #1054 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?

Typically I get the 'burn-in' speech as an audition goes south. The dealers were trying to keep the sale alive. By that point I have lost interest to the point I don't check the manuals.

Oh, and I have the SACD Dark Side of the Moon, but I am keeping it. Sorry.
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post #1055 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?

SACD of Dark Side was released about ten years ago or so. You can look for it on Ebay, it's selling for around 10-20 bucks.
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post #1056 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

You can buy it on Amazon, it's on a Blu-ray that's part of a box set (Disc 5), if you survive the sticker shock...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Dark-Side-Moon-Immersion/dp/B004ZNARH4

Nono, you don't have to buy the BR with the box set. There's an SACD that came out some time ago.
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post #1057 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:01 PM
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I think people respond to brightness as clarity and resolution. I do. Personally, I like bright speakers. I always have.

To each his own. I have listened to many sets ups with audiophiles where they just love the sound and I have to leave the room after 5 minutes. In those rooms, I can see why they hate digital. Bright speakers, being hard for me to listen to, just don't sound anything like real instruments. While real instruments can sound harsh, like the spat of a trumpet, not this kind of harshness. Far too many of them have weak bass too, a double whammy which contributes to the fatiguing nature of the presentation. Bright speakers played too loud. I have seen it ( or should I say heard it) far too many times. Geriatric treble indeed.
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post #1058 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

Gee, what happens if you lose power? Back to the beginning!
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post #1059 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

They don't say what they are measuring, so it is all a mystery.

IME there is no such thing as an appreciable break in period for well designed electronic components.

I think that is the key -- at the design level these issues should be resolved.

Right. Modern well-designed components are generally highly stable and have few if any production-line adjustments.
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post #1060 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

Gee, what happens if you lose power? Back to the beginning!

 

That's not consistent with what is says in Naim manuals.

"3.3 Running In
Naim equipment takes a considerable time to run in before 
it performs at its best. The duration varies, but under some 
conditions the sound may continue to improve for over a month. 
Better and more consistent performance will be achieved if 
the system is left switched on for long periods. It is worth 
remembering however that equipment left connected to the 
mains can be damaged by lightning.
"


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post #1061 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:12 PM
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@JWhip

 

When asked why you can hear all the washing machines in the neighbourhood through your speakers, a Naim dealer will swiftly assure you that is a feature for better sound quality.

 

@imagic

 

I'm just sharing what Naim dealers respond, not the manufacturer. 

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post #1062 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post


You would lose that bet.

The average DAC on a motherboard is 16-bit CD-quality audio and is usually pretty good, up to where it leaves and goes out.

The DAC in a cheap CD player or smartphone can easily be demonstrated to be very inferior in performance and has poor resolution.

The high-quality SABRE DACs in the OPPO BDP-95 and -105 are the precise reason they sound so good.

P.S.- There are very few audio stores anywhere that have demo rooms suitable to properly demonstrate good high-end equipment. Their acoustics tend to be terrible and most of the guys that work there haven't a clue. It's a sad state of affairs.


Ditto

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post #1063 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post

To each his own. I have listened to many sets ups with audiophiles where they just love the sound and I have to leave the room after 5 minutes. In those rooms, I can see why they hate digital. Bright speakers, being hard for me to listen to, just don't sound anything like real instruments. While real instruments can sound harsh, like the spat of a trumpet, not this kind of harshness. Far too many of them have weak bass too, a double whammy which contributes to the fatiguing nature of the presentation. Bright speakers played too loud. I have seen it ( or should I say heard it) far too many times. Geriatric treble indeed.

Couldn't agree more, except for the part about too little bass adding to the fatigue factor. I would just alter that a bit and say that too much booming, inexpensive bass would contribute to the fatigue factor - unless your just meaning because of the absence of bass, and therefore an over-the-top higher-frequency concentration equals major fatigue, then I would most definitely agree.

That's why I prefer a -2db cut on the treble. It's not a perfect solution, but it's at least a step in the right direction. Incidentally, my higher frequency driver is a 1" silk dome. I cannot tolerate horn loaded drivers and folded-ribbon tweeters, especially driven with SS amps. I'm out of those rooms in way less than 5 minutes, btw. Way to shrill for me.

But like you said, to each his own. I would also add that one man's passion, is another man's poison.


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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?


Alas a truly great question?

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post #1065 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 02:27 PM
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Right. Modern well-designed components are generally highly stable and have few if any production-line adjustments.

I used to work with Nortel and Cisco routers and switches, amongst a few other bleeding edge brands.
We always did performance tests before a network would go live, check the whole list of protocols, etc. It was pretty much always said that these routers that cost multiple seven figures if a little under performance would be attributed to burn in. Usually we heard the if we used better glass fibre or copper and burn it in then it will just work better.
No we really never said that wink.gifwink.gif
LOL
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post #1066 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?
I heard it recently, and it's quite an upgrade from the old stereo version. Impressive.
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post #1067 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 04:29 PM
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I heard it recently, and it's quite an upgrade from the old stereo version. Impressive.

Money, Us and Them, and Whatever Colour You Like are my favorite ones just for sonic experience, even though the whole album is great.

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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.
Over a year... Feels like warranty "burn-in" to me biggrin.gif
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post #1069 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

That's pretty funny! On the Linn side, Tiefenbrun used to claim that any electroacoustic transducer in the room in addition to the main speakers would degrade the sound, even going so far as to say that a telephone would do so biggrin.gif. I think the Boston Audio Society was able to have him do a DBT of the telephone thing, and of course he failed.

Edit: Here's a link to the Boston Audio Society article about the test.
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post #1070 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 08:36 PM
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I like the definition from Wikipedia-

High-end audio is a class of consumer home audio equipment marketed to audiophiles on the basis of high price or quality, and esoteric or novel sound reproduction technologies. The term can refer simply to the price, to the build quality of the components, or to the subjective or objective quality of sound reproduction.

I have waded through all 36 pages to date, missing only those posts deleted by the moderators. It's been an interesting read. The demise of the high end has been rumored since the 1990's, I know because I read about it in Stereophile back then. So long as there are people with disposable income who appreciate beautiful design and build quality, there will be a High End. Just as there will be market for higher priced cars, homes, or anything else, some will be willing to pay for beautiful audio gear.

I think Holt is correct. The object of any system should be the accurate reproduction of the original performance in the original venue, ie, the "Absolute Sound". The standard for this should be acoustic instruments and, perhaps, the human voice. This can be achieved at a lower price now than ever before. If two different systems approximate TAS to the roughly the same degree, who cares how much the respective owners spent?

My issue with the "High End" is those with vested interests, ie, cable manufacturers, magazines, dealers, etc, have co-opted the term to promote snake oil products. Lots of money has changed hands as a result, but I suppose this would be viewed as a victimless crime.
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post #1071 of 1767 Old 04-29-2014, 08:42 PM
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This is a favorite take on the subject from a site posted on the last page (and hope no one else quoted this)

http://lenardaudio.com/education/
Quote:
Audiophiles’ became one of the most bizarre cults of the previous century. Claiming to be gifted with golden ears, audiophiles can hear electrons traveling in wires, and have the ability to channel thought into crystals to ward off evil harmonics. Cloaking themselves in mystical terms unrelated to music and physics, they can be heard chanting model numbers and superlatives. This delusional mix of paranoia and marketing hype, where descriptions attain to greater meaning than the described, exists in all areas of society.

High Fidelity includes
1. Accurate aural judgments.
2. Integrity of electronic signal path.
3. Neutralization of acoustic environment.
4. Efficiency and dynamic range of transducers.
Webster defines Fidelity as ‘exactness, as in a copy’.
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post #1072 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.
For me that is THE reason not to buy that gear.
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post #1073 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.
For me that is THE reason not to buy that gear.

Please remember that is an unsubstantiated statement. Naim does not say any such thing in its manuals, I checked. In my experience it is uncommon for a dealer to directly contradict what a manufacturer says in its documentation. Not unprecedented, just unusual.

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post #1074 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 01:20 AM
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Perhaps to your ears they are the same too, you just haven't done the right tests to determine it.

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post #1075 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stegen View Post

I would like to know more about this 5.1 Dark side of the moon disk. Where can i get it?

http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Moon-30th-Anniversary/dp/B00008CLOA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1398847097&sr=1-1&keywords=dark+side+of+the+moon+sacd
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post #1076 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 02:42 AM
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The anti-science based audio people here use the same old tactics, or probably more accurately stated, express the same emotions as the alternative medicine proponents and proponents of other ideologies that do not pass the ******** test. For some reason they think or project that they are the only ones capable of emotions, compassion, passion or feelings. They play the no compassion gambit and the victim card.  To those, science and those advocating a scientific approach, are cold, hard, compassion-less, bullying robots. Like the alt-med proponents, anti-vaxers, organic food superiority proponents and believers in other forms of woo they believe they are the only ones who care, the only difference being what they purport to care for. 

Just like water diviner who agrees to rigorous experimental protocols to determine whether they and their special wire rods (coat hangers) can find water by divining an energy unknown to science the audiophile agrees to test whether their wire or cable can sound better and fail every time.  Rather than admit that perhaps they were wrong the doubling down begins,  "the water was not flowing, the equipment used was not high end enough".  The mystical energy and power of a properly conducted test somehow removes the power of diviners, alt med, psychics, faith healers, etc". 

Anecdote and personal experience are powerful influences in all our lives but there comes a time when one has to realise that anecdote is near meaningless and the plural of anecdote is not data, that the easiest people to fool are ourselves and that the only way to find out if we are fooling ourselves is rigorous science.

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post #1077 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nx211 View Post

Couldn't agree more, except for the part about too little bass adding to the fatigue factor. I would just alter that a bit and say that too much booming, inexpensive bass would contribute to the fatigue factor - unless your just meaning because of the absence of bass, and therefore an over-the-top higher-frequency concentration equals major fatigue, then I would most definitely agree.

That's why I prefer a -2db cut on the treble. It's not a perfect solution, but it's at least a step in the right direction. Incidentally, my higher frequency driver is a 1" silk dome. I cannot tolerate horn loaded drivers and folded-ribbon tweeters, especially driven with SS amps. I'm out of those rooms in way less than 5 minutes, btw. Way to shrill for me.

But like you said, to each his own. I would also add that one man's passion, is another man's poison.


nx211

Not all horns are shrill... Poor horn speaker or perhaps you haven't heard them setup right possibly?

Most people's rooms aren't setup in such a way with proper diffusion/absorption balance as to make definitive comments about speaker quality.

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post #1078 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 05:34 AM
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They sell frozen dinners or peanuts at the grocery store and claim NO cholesterol....

Well of course they don't ... Plants don't make cholesterol. These kinds of claims are common even in supposedly "objective" brands. What is useful and what isn't is layered in obfuscation...

Myths are said OVER and OVER and OVER such that only the seasoned AVS member or an electrical engineer knows what is or isn't true...

Doctors and nurses I train still give IV albumin for a lot of different things ... This is the high end speaker cable correlate in the medical industry. No amount of studies reduce usage of this stuff until a whole generation retires and then even then it is perpetuated.

Voodoo is everywhere, and even if you are a "scientist" in audio... You might do voodoo elsewhere in your life... In fact I guarantee you do.
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post #1079 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

And if you believe that, I have a bridge......
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post #1080 of 1767 Old 04-30-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

When you go to a Naim dealer he will tell you that it takes over a year to burn in their gear and you mustn't ever turn it off, otherwise it all starts from the beginning.

Do you have a link?

As I said, I only hear this 3rd hand. Never from someone identified with the company or a licensed reseller.

Anyone???

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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