Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

First, I just hate the phrase "high end." It's just a snotty way of saying "expensive." We should stop using the phrase entirely.
While I'm sure that sounds quite good, it also shows quite clearly why there's a market for expensive or "luxury" audio. Take those speakers, and finish the cabinets in a nice veneer. While you're add it, upgrade the drivers to B&C's or something of similarly indisputable quality. Add some attractive bespoke cabinetry to hide all of the electronics. Wires...well, some things are just dumb. The expensive thing about wires for someone capable of thought should not be the wires themselves, but the handwork and materials required to hide them.

There's a place for both the Infinity Primuses and TAD Reference Ones of the world, for both the ATIs (basically flawless AB amplification) and McIntoshs (that, plus really cool looking if they're the ones with meters), etc.

Also, I think the "luxury" end of the market may morph back to some form of "coachbuilder" model. Especially as plate amps with elite-grade amps and good DSP become more available. (Hypex introduced one a couple years ago, miniDSP more recently.)

As for vinyl, people who love music should loathe the "vinyl backlash," because a very material consequence of it is that artists are releasing better-sounding masters on the obsolete tar pits than on digital.
I agree that when we say high end we also mean expensive. Expensive is a relative term too. For example, is a $150 bluray player expensive? Is a $500 Oppo expensive? Are $800, $5,000, or $15k or more?

At the same time $800 speakers don't sound as good to me as $5000 pairs I've auditioned. That's just plain cost of materials and physics. Adding the other luxury stuff you mention is well taken.

Today, I think people can get exceptional sound without spending an arm and a leg. At the same time if you can afford it you can get better sound. +1 on the comment that there is a place for both.

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post #92 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

..... btw Out of curiosity i checked my GSM Phone yesterday. It was 30 seconds off, so not accurate.

You do need to get out more.

(Or enable the gps option.)
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post #93 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:37 AM
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Where I am seeing high end take a leap is more clients are buying headphone rigs to put in their home office that cost several grand which years ago only had 2 small powered bookshelf speakers.
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post #94 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:41 AM
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Great post, Imagic.

Back in the days, there definitely were very audible differences between amplifiers and sources, especially in the more reasonable priced units that was affordable.
Today it is possible to achieve audibly transparent performance for very little money - a fact that is supported by controlled listening tests and also measurements of technical performance compared to the limits of what is possible to hear.

The problem with 'high-end' is the continued chasing of increased performance when there is no longer any real improvements to gain, yet still there are many other things that can be improved if better sound actually was the goal.

This forum is one of few places where I read about experiences and improvements and solutions that really makes a difference for the sound.
It is a source for inspiration when I design and build things.

Bass is a good example of audiophile failure.
For many audiophiles bass definition equals no bass - the lowest frequencies are often non-existent, and the bass level is often too low, causing a total loss of physical impact and excitement.
I think this is one cause why normal people don't see the point in having a decent audio set-up, they conclude that they probably don't have good enough ears to hear the claimed difference, because it does not sound good to them, it does not bring excitement, and they certainly do not want to hear the Norah Jones album over and over again.

For high-end audio, branding is the most important, then there is physical appearance, then comes price.
Sound quality is number 4 down the list, and with the right presentation, a high price-tag and the branding in place, you can get away with much.

But when I pull out some tracks from Flashbulb, or perhaps Halloweener from the Dub King, then it all falls apart, as the reality of physics wins in the end.

It all depends on who exactly you're talking about. I know an older audiophile who has had a lifelong love of theater pipe organs. He has specially designed speakers attached to the foundations of his house. His setup can reproduce the low notes of an organ, as well as dubstep tracks.

I know another older audiophile who has Revel Ultimas with twin high-end velodynes. His system is more than capable of hitting the lowest notes, although I don't think he listens to anything other than movies that go down that low.
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post #95 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

More accurate perhaps, but you get a lot less power per $ and the difference is inaudible, when compared to a well-engineered pro audio amp. I'm not really saying a $20 Chinese amp like the Lepai will match class A heavy iron, but a Crown or QSC or (better yet) Lab Gruppen certainly will, and do so much more efficiently, while taking up less space as well. One of my dreams is to attend—or even possibly organize—a pro audio vs. consumer high-end amplifier blind shootout.
Mark, is that Crown amp of yours a class D? I've been looking at upgrading my receiver, and I'm heavily leaning toward the latest Pio Elites due to their Class D amplification(lighter, more efficient, less heat/less cost to run), but I'd also like to do something like a pre/pro with amp.....but I haven't seen anything affordable in a Class D configuration.
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post #96 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post


Mark, is that Crown amp of yours a class D? I've been looking at upgrading my receiver, and I'm heavily leaning toward the latest Pio Elites due to their Class D amplification(lighter, more efficient, less heat/less cost to run), but I'd also like to do something like a pre/pro with amp.....but I haven't seen anything affordable in a Class D configuration.

Actually, the XTi series is Class AB+B except the XTi-6002 which uses Crown's own design which it calls Class I. The popular Crown XLS Drivecore series is class D.


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post #97 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 07:16 AM
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It's a silly question. It's relevant to those who can afford it. Is the Rolls-Royce Wriath irrelevant since one can get a Ford Focus that does the exact same thing-move you from one place to another? While 98% of us may not afford these high end components, there remains a 2% who can who want something more than just an $600 AV receiver or Bose Wave radio. Stop hatin' and move on, Mark.
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post #98 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 07:23 AM
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I own 10 crown XLS amps and even those "value" items are dressed up with a somewhat gaudy front fascia and painted. They come in a printed box that could be eliminated for a regular box instead.

I would wager a guess that you could EASILY fit this technology into a 1u rack space but for whatever reason they chose 2u (easier to manufacture?) i suspect that 2u "looks" beefier and therefore had a role in the larger size. A 1u rack size unit is likely cheaper to package and ship also.

My point is that even in the "budget" equipment, they waste a lot of money on frills.

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post #99 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by charliw View Post

It's a silly question. It's relevant to those who can afford it. Is the Rolls-Royce Wriath irrelevant since one can get a Ford Focus that does the exact same thing-move you from one place to another? While 98% of us may not afford these high end components, there remains a 2% who can who want something more than just an $600 AV receiver or Bose Wave radio. Stop hatin' and move on, Mark.

 

Thank you for another great analogy. Twenty-plus years ago, economy cars were poor performers and lacked luxury options. Back then, there was no guarantee that an economy car would even start on a cold morning. Today, a typical economy car like the Focus has a sporty demeanor, rock-solid reliability, and lots of creature comforts. 

 

There is a tremendous amount of great gear that lies between Bose Wave radios and $100,000 systems.

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post #100 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by charliw View Post

It's a silly question. It's relevant to those who can afford it.

When it comes to high end audio, there IME are a lot more people who can afford it than buy into it.
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Is the Rolls-Royce Wriath irrelevant since one can get a Ford Focus that does the exact same thing-move you from one place to another?

Depends who you are talking about, but for many the answer is yes. For example one of the richer men I've known drove a Pontiac 6000 to the Detroit Symphony where he was a board member.
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While 98% of us may not afford these high end components, there remains a 2% who can who want something more than just an $600 AV receiver or Bose Wave radio. Stop hatin' and move on, Mark.

A $600 AVR connected to the right speakers in the right room would make a lot of high enders umm, embarass themselves and soil the floor. ;-)
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post #101 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

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There are certain standards. You cannot just make up what is accurate and what is not. Accuracy equals precision. Accurate in time is max a few seconds off in a year. Beyond that time become's inaccurate. Accurate/trusted brand equals reliability, inaccuracy equals unreliability. You do not get accuracy in time for 10 bucks (10 bucks equals cheap). You migth think that quartz watches are accurate. No they are not. Consumer grade quartz lose between a tenth of a second and two seconds a day. btw Out of curiosity i checked my GSM Phone yesterday. It was 30 seconds off, so not accurate.

I liken an expensive turntable to a Rolex and an affordable DAC to a Casio. I defer to Gizmodo to make my point about ubiquitous, cheap, and accurate technology—insomuch as it serves as an analogy for audio equipment...

 

Why a $10 Casio Keeps Better Time Than a $10,000 Rolex




"High-stability frequency crystal oscillators—those suitable for clocks—were developed in 1928 by Warren Marrison of Bell Telephone Laboratories and have since become the most widely-used means of telling time in the world. Losing just one lost second every 30 years, quartz movement is orders of magnitude more accurate than mechanical designs. As such, more than two billion quartz oscillators are manufactured annually for use in personal timepieces, electronic circuits, and radio transceivers." - Andrew Tarantola
 writing for
 gizmodo

It's time to defer to Christopher Walken


 

'nuf said about watches
A 10 bucks Casio is precise but not reliable wink.gif
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post #102 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 08:21 AM
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+1 for the more money than brains comment.

 

For many the move from TV speakers to HTiB or even a sound bar is where their audio evolution will end; even mid-fi is out of the realm of possibility due to financial, space, or aesthetic reasons, or they just don't care.

 

And baby boomers saving high-end audio?  The average retired factory worker/farmer/teacher with high frequency hearing loss on a fixed income is not going to drop $10,000+ on a high-end system and save the industry. The industry will survive at some level because there are still suckers born every minute.

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Vizio M551D -- Denon 1613 -- Vizio 3D Blu-ray

 

I find your lack of schadenfreude disturbing.

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post #103 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:08 AM
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HiFi is just different now. You don't have to spend $20k to have it. It's now very accessable. A Crown XTi2002 is HiFi, period.

I have said this numerous times in the DIY forum. The playing field is getting pretty level. When someone claims "these speakers are amazing, I'm hearing things I've never heard before, veils are lifted, dynamics are crushing, etc." I ignore them. The differences between speakers are just not what they were in the 80s. When there really was a clear, audible, massive, distinct difference between a $400 home stereo and a $10k hifi system.

BTW, I've used that Peerless 830656 midwoofer and it's a real gem. It was used in a speaker design competition where everyone had to use that very driver. It was call the "Iron Driver" competition. It really is a great little driver. I've built 3 different speakers with it. I won Best Sound in that competition. I have no doubt those little Monster speakers sound pretty good. Very ineffecient though.
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post #104 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:25 AM
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I got my first smart phone in early January. I guess I had questions as to what time it was before that?

Of course not. Even cheap watches are incredibly accurate, as are cheap clocks. Plus, these days accurate time is ubiquitous. You don't have to find someone who's wearing a Rolex to find out what time it really is. The same goes for sound. You don't have to find someone who owns a turntable and 300 pounds of gear to hear good quality sound these days. Accurate time and accurate audio are both cheap and ubiquitous.


smile.gif Just trying to make a point about assuming everybody has, or wants, a smartphone. While its a cooler device than I expected, one thing I don't use it for much is for telling time, so your comment seemed funny to me. While I can appreciate the craftsmanship involved in a fine timepiece, and do like a little bit of the jewelry aspect to my watch, there's no way I'd spend more than $100 on one these days. Then I don't own any other "jewelry", just not my thing. Audio quality just isn't very important to the vast majority of people I know....except around here.

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post #105 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:28 AM
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Very good topic, I did purchase a lot of the high end gear (not the super high end) beginning iin the mid to late 80's, Conrad Johnson amp and pre-amps, Thorens Turntable, I still have my gear and it still sounds great, however I don't use it as much I believe the quality gap has decreased.
So I believe it will someday go away with the exception of the super high end for those that can afford it.
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post #106 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:48 AM
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I think that AVR's have caught up to high end separates do to better chips .
Just look at a 500 dollar cell phone it has better specs than a computer for the home 15 years ago do to advancement in chips.
! chip now can take the place of 4 just a few short years ago having a shorter noise free path with quicker response times while handling more bits of info.
FM tuners lock on to station with better specs.
Pre amp sections handle everything with less noise and issues.
The amp sections in some cases (Pioneer's D3) handle heavy loads without breaking a sweat from what I have seen while running cooler and not trying to suck the wall socket dry.
Modern day AVR's have come a long way and challenge separates on just about everything but high watt amps which for most is really not needed.
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post #107 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:52 AM
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The title of this thread really begs the question: "Is High End Listening Obsolete". I'm thinking that many of us who were drawn to any attempt at recreating the "live" listening experience are an ever shrinking group. And I don't mean going to "live" concerts where both the sound level and lousy acoustic venue shorten the life of our hearing. It's more about acoustic spaces where orchestras to small combos play and still do so, though in limited numbers.

If you're still in that tribe you have learned that reality, and trying to recreate it, prove endlessly difficult, even with the best audio equipment and "room equalization" technology we have today. That, with the diminishing availability of quaility source material to throw at a good system, makes it ever more difficult to get the experience we're all after.

Like our universe of expansion at an ever increasing rate, we'll never get to see that edge or hear that sound in our homes. The stuff we pick up in a live venue is not just what we hear, but how we hear it. Our ear/brain combo "gets" far more stuff outside the range of the audible, much like there's a huge amount of information way beyond our visual senses: just "see" what infrared and ultraviolet, let alone other wavelength waves are being produced in the universe.

So, I'm glad there are those of us, both creators and receivers of this magic, who continually strive to make a sonic experience at home as lifelike as possible.

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post #108 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 09:58 AM
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That serves the interests of both the dealers and the consumers in the high end who are looking for bragging rights. I won't deny that vinyl can sound excellent, but it cannot ever hope to beat high-resolution digital audio in terms of distortion, dynamic range, and frequency response. Similarly, a Rolex pocket watch cannot hope to beat the iPhone in terms of accuracy or utility—but it certainly costs more.
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Pass Labs amps—and many similar products from other elite audio designers—are exactly like super-expensive watches. From a practical perspective, they don't tell time any more accurately than cheap watches (which are also obsolete), but they look nice, cost a lot, and are sought-after by the wealthy.
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Even cheap watches are incredibly accurate, as are cheap clocks. Plus, these days accurate time is ubiquitous. You don't have to find someone who's wearing a Rolex to find out what time it really is. The same goes for sound. You don't have to find someone who owns a turntable and 300 pounds of gear to hear good quality sound these days. Accurate time and accurate audio are both cheap and ubiquitous.
I’ve long thought that one of the primary motivations behind the marketing of “high end” audio is the appeal to the desire for exclusivity or differentiation, ie being able to say to others or to oneself “I have something that distinguishes me from the common man. I am special, more refined, more discerning, or just plain RICHER than others, and buying this stuff is PROOF of that”. The comparison with Rolex watches is quite apt. 50-60 years ago, a watch that kept excellent time was expensive. Then came the quartz revolution, and suddenly anyone could afford a watch that kept excellent time, even better than the “prestigious” mechanicals. A funny thing then happened: Instead of focusing on how well they kept time, the prestigious watch labels began to ignore that aspect and focus more on how “well made” they were, or “how good” they looked, since accurate timekeeping was no longer a differentiator. So it is with audio. That’s why Wilson talks about how much they spend on making their cabinets look good, or why high end amps use thick, heavy metal cases.
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There are certain standards. You cannot just make up what is accurate and what is not. Accuracy equals precision. Accurate in time is max a few seconds off in a year. Beyond that time become's inaccurate. Accurate/trusted brand equals reliability, inaccuracy equals unreliability. You do not get accuracy in time for 10 bucks (10 bucks equals cheap). You migth think that quartz watches are accurate. No they are not. Consumer grade quartz lose between a tenth of a second and two seconds a day.
I had a cheap Timex that was accurate to two seconds a MONTH. Compare that to a “certified Swiss chronometer” that’s accurate to maybe one second per DAY (how is that more accurate than a modern quartz?). Since my Casio is synced to an atomic timebase, it’s essentially always accurate. BTW, my Galaxy S4 clock is accurate to a second or so.
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post #109 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:05 AM
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It's a silly question. It's relevant to those who can afford it. Is the Rolls-Royce Wriath irrelevant since one can get a Ford Focus that does the exact same thing-move you from one place to another? While 98% of us may not afford these high end components, there remains a 2% who can who want something more than just an $600 AV receiver or Bose Wave radio. Stop hatin' and move on, Mark.

That misses the point. The Rolls Royce takes people from one place to another differently than the Ford Focus. Their performance isn't the same. But the $2000 speaker cable pair performs exactly the same as the $20 pair but the owner doesn't see it that way. Therein is the problem. No question that a battery powered quartz watch or my cell phone tell time better than a Rolex. But the Rolex owner understands that. He is buying jewelry. The Audiophile spending money on speaker cables is buying a lie. I could afford a $2000 speaker cable pair but don't want one because I know it is a lie.
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post #110 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:13 AM
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That misses the point. The Rolls Royce takes people from one place to another differently than the Ford Focus. Their performance isn't the same. But the $2000 speaker cable pair performs exactly the same as the $20 pair but the owner doesn't see it that way. Therein is the problem. No question that a battery powered quartz watch or my cell phone tell time better than a Rolex. But the Rolex owner understands that. He is buying jewelry. The Audiophile spending money on speaker cables is buying a lie. I could afford a $2000 speaker cable pair but don't want one because I know it is a lie.
The ironic thing about that is that it's easy and very cheap to dress up "ordinary" wire to LOOK like "high end" wire. All you need is some shrink wrap and Techflex sleeving from Parts Express.
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post #111 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:34 AM
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Not sure that I have much to add that hasn't already been said, but I can share a recent personal experience that relates to the question posed by the OP. I went to a wealthy audiophiles home, recently, to audition an Emotiva XPA-2 amp he had for sale. When I say wealthy, I mean WEALTHY. This guy had audio equipment that costs more than what it took to purchase my home! Heck, he had speaker cables that cost 3 times as much as the car I drove to his house. He had amps that cost 60k, themselves! Truly, the gentleman was a *money is no object* audio type. Funny he had an emotiva amp amongst all this expensive gear, but he said he had heard a lot about emotiva and since they were so cheap, he wanted to give them a try to see what all the hype was about. He auditioned the amp on one of his stereo set-ups and everything sounded spectacular. He kept remarking how much he liked the amp and how good he thought it sounded *for the money*. Just as a comparison, he disconnected the Emotiva and hooked up a $10k amp he had on hand, the model name escapes me but I do recall the cost, and I couldn't believe how much the sound on the same system had changed. The bass was sloppy, the mid's were muddled. Imaging? Out the window! Same interconnects, same speaker cables, same source, same speakers. The sub $1,000 Emotiva spanked the amp costing 10x as much in every way, shape, form. This story illustrates a few points, 1. components are system dependent and yeah, they DO make a difference in sound. 2. You don't have to spend a ton of money to get high end sound. Honestly, I think the only reason the guy was selling the Emotiva was that his pride wouldn't allow him to keep that sort of lowly budget component in high-end system. In case you wondered, I left day Emo in hand. biggrin.gif
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post #112 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:40 AM
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Just as a comparison, he disconnected the Emotiva and hooked up a $10k amp he had on hand, the model name escapes me but I do recall the cost, and I couldn't believe how much the sound on the same system had changed. The bass was sloppy, the mid's were muddled. Imaging? Out the window! Same interconnects, same speaker cables, same source, same speakers. The sub $1,000 Emotiva spanked the amp costing 10x as much in every way, shape, form.
Since it was a sighted comparison with no bias controls described whatsoever, that anecdote is meaningless.
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post #113 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post

Not sure that I have much to add that hasn't already been said, but I can share a recent personal experience that relates to the question posed by the OP. I went to a wealthy audiophiles home, recently, to audition an Emotiva XPA-2 amp he had for sale. When I say wealthy, I mean WEALTHY. This guy had audio equipment that costs more than what it took to purchase my home! Heck, he had speaker cables that cost 3 times as much as the car I drove to his house. He had amps that cost 60k, themselves! Truly, the gentleman was a *money is no object* audio type. Funny he had an emotiva amp amongst all this expensive gear, but he said he had heard a lot about emotiva and since they were so cheap, he wanted to give them a try to see what all the hype was about. He auditioned the amp on one of his stereo set-ups and everything sounded spectacular. He kept remarking how much he liked the amp and how good he thought it sounded *for the money*. Just as a comparison, he disconnected the Emotiva and hooked up a $10k amp he had on hand, the model name escapes me but I do recall the cost, and I couldn't believe how much the sound on the same system had changed. The bass was sloppy, the mid's were muddled. Imaging? Out the window! Same interconnects, same speaker cables, same source, same speakers. The sub $1,000 Emotiva spanked the amp costing 10x as much in every way, shape, form. This story illustrates a few points, 1. components are system dependent and yeah, they DO make a difference in sound. 2. You don't have to spend a ton of money to get high end sound. Honestly, I think the only reason the guy was selling the Emotiva was that his pride wouldn't allow him to keep that sort of lowly budget component in high-end system. In case you wondered, I left day Emo in hand. biggrin.gif

That method of comparison is relatively meaningless, as it wasn't at the least level matched (unless you left that part of the exercise out) let alone a/b/x compared. Many folks judge things on price relativity....we're trained as consumers better than most things. smile.gif

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post #114 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by CSO View Post

I disagree with your analogy. An audio system is not a watch. Pass's products are indeed more accurate than the cheap stuff. You may be interested in Nelson Pass talking transistors..

Any day of the week you want to put on a blind fold and put a Crown I-Tech HD in the rack with what ever Pass Lab you like. Pass doesn't step out of a Bugatti and Crown engineers off a yellow school bus.

Same for Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, QSC. They have engineers and more of them. Not to knock Mr. Pass but he's not the only brilliant guy in the amp biz.
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An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #115 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:48 AM
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There are certain standards. You cannot just make up what is accurate and what is not. Accuracy equals precision. Accurate in time is max a few seconds off in a year. Beyond that time become's inaccurate. Accurate/trusted brand equals reliability, inaccuracy equals unreliability. You do not get accuracy in time for 10 bucks (10 bucks equals cheap). You migth think that quartz watches are accurate. No they are not. Consumer grade quartz lose between a tenth of a second and two seconds a day. btw Out of curiosity i checked my GSM Phone yesterday. It was 30 seconds off, so not accurate.

I liken an expensive turntable to a Rolex and an affordable DAC to a Casio. I defer to Gizmodo to make my point about ubiquitous, cheap, and accurate technology—insomuch as it serves as an analogy for audio equipment...

 

Why a $10 Casio Keeps Better Time Than a $10,000 Rolex




"High-stability frequency crystal oscillators—those suitable for clocks—were developed in 1928 by Warren Marrison of Bell Telephone Laboratories and have since become the most widely-used means of telling time in the world. Losing just one lost second every 30 years, quartz movement is orders of magnitude more accurate than mechanical designs. As such, more than two billion quartz oscillators are manufactured annually for use in personal timepieces, electronic circuits, and radio transceivers." - Andrew Tarantola
 writing for
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It's time to defer to Christopher Walken


 

'nuf said about watches
A 10 bucks Casio is precise but not reliable wink.gif

Actually a cheap crystal controlled watch is probably not as stable as Warren Marrison's 1928 quartz crystal based clock. For one thing a watch operates in an environment whose temperature is fluctuating.

Here's an experiment that I have done. Compare the accuracy of your watch on your arm with the same watch stting out on a piece of furniture. It will probably be more accurate on your arm because that is the environment that it was designed for, but that's still not a really stable environment.

The operating instructions for crystal clocks based on Marrison's design included letting it warm up thoroughly and then adjusting it in comparison with one of the national time service radio stations. They were a common science fair project...

It is possible to temperature compensate a watch almost perfectly for a varying thermal environment, but not yet for $10 it seems.
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post #116 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 10:51 AM
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Amps when designed correctly and used correctly should only amplify what the pre-amp sent it there should be no difference unless
1.) the amp is not large enough to handle the load for the volume you are trying to obtain.
2.) It has added circuitry altering the sound from the original signal
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post #117 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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I want to hear your opinions on this topic. What direction will high-end audio take? What is the most promising technology for audiophiles? And most importantly, do you think high-end audio is obsolete?


I am 66 years old and continue to enjoy my love of High-End Audio: to that end I applaud Sony's introduction of the HAP series HDD audio player: I bought the HAP-Z1ES: it is a refreshing approach to high end audio: I doubt Sony would have invested so much in this product if they thought High-End Audio obsolete...
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post #118 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I want to hear your opinions on this topic. What direction will high-end audio take? What is the most promising technology for audiophiles? And most importantly, do you think high-end audio is obsolete?


I am 66 years old and continue to enjoy my love of High-End Audio: to that end I applaud Sony's introduction of the HAP series HDD audio player: I bought the HAP-Z1ES: it is a refreshing approach to high end audio: I doubt Sony would have invested so much in this product if they thought High-End Audio obsolete...


I hope you are right but i have seen them drop the ball with DAT and SACD.
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post #119 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
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I doubt Sony would have invested so much in this product if they thought High-End Audio obsolete...

Nobody has ever suggested that "high end audio" is obsolete from a marketers perspective.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #120 of 1762 Old 04-14-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post

It all depends on who exactly you're talking about.
...

Of course. Real people are different, and do not fit exactly into my description of the 'audiophile', which was meant as a fairly blunt generalization.
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