Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 05:44 AM
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There was some tests against various DAC ADC and all of them went through analog cables. It was posted somewhere on gearslutz a pro forum and no one could hear the difference between a few hundred times through the DAC ADC chain and the original. So if analog degraded the sound or the ADC or DAC did then surely in a few hundred times through the convertors this would be obvious as day.

The files where posted in blind and I am more of the conclusion if there is differences they are so slight its not relevant even in mastering.
With cables unless you are grossly off in Impedance, and over great lengths I doubt it even matters.
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post #1442 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Sounds like a nice enjoyable system.

Perhaps you could do me a favour and explain to kbarnes701 some of the benefits of having a stereo sub arrangement... www.avsforum.com/t/1507920/bi-amping-b-w-cm10/570#post_24626655

And perhaps someone could explain to you that there is always pro/cons in each situation, and that's what some knowledgeable people here tried to do. If you prefer the benefits, then go ahead and don't look back!

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post #1443 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

And perhaps someone could explain to you that there is always pro/cons in each situation, and that's what some knowledgeable people here tried to do. If you prefer the benefits, then go ahead and don't look back!

Curious, what are the potential drawback?

Thanks

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #1444 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Seems to me every time I read something here it contradicts something I read here.

Welcome to audio which is sadly guided as much by hearing bias as common sense.
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Are RadioShack RCA inter cables the same as $100 ones or $1,000 ones or what?

No, but none of them have a sound of their own or degrade the sound in any way unless they have high capacitance or little EQ boxes built into them..
Quote:
Does speaker wire really just come down to the gauge given the distance the run or not?

Yes, it does
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Is all HDMI cable created equal?

No, but all those that get all the data from one end to the other perform exactly the same in use.
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Facts? Opinions?;

Facts based on bias controlled testing. Opinions according to subjective audiophiles who you think can hear better than objective audiophiles.
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post #1445 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 807recordings View Post

There was some tests against various DAC ADC and all of them went through analog cables. It was posted somewhere on gearslutz a pro forum and no one could hear the difference between a few hundred times through the DAC ADC chain and the original. So if analog degraded the sound or the ADC or DAC did then surely in a few hundred times through the convertors this would be obvious as day.

The files where posted in blind and I am more of the conclusion if there is differences they are so slight its not relevant even in mastering.
With cables unless you are grossly off in Impedance, and over great lengths I doubt it even matters.

 

I'll definitely look into that, sounds interesting and informative.


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post #1446 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Curious, what are the potential drawback?

Thanks

First and mostly, the difficulty of attaining the perfect placement ( which is hard in a real life room where a lot of us have their system in a living room...) to retire the most benefits of stereo bass.

Since you seem to be the kind asking for links, here is an interesting paper :

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf
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post #1447 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:21 AM
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Of course, for more skilled people ( which I'm not, btw, I'm just a music passionate....), stereo bass wouldn't likely represent much of a challenge!

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post #1448 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'll definitely look into that, sounds interesting and informative.

It has been interesting to as often on those forums the next convertors come in for testing and I think one such test was against a 1500 dollar sound card vs 6 thousand and actually the more expensive came out worse.

Bottom line is times have changed and although there is possibility of differences any competently designed product now is not the issue. Cables mosdef are not, but room acoustics are.

Side note:
I produce music and do not subscribe to the loudness war but I do use use tons of synthesizers.
Back many moons ago the whole VST Virtual Instruments came to play to mimic the analog synthesizers. Many said they did not sound correct, and to a certain degree some early cheap versions didn't. Still I always got a laugh when I had tracks done both from my real Moog, TR-909 drum machine to 2 inch tape at 30 ips then 1/2 inch and on the same album one completely done digitally.

Almost every time people guessed wrong on which version was which and usually preferred the digital versions.
Ergonomics is a factor though in music production and using outboard gear can add for some hard to replicate scenarios and this is why I DJ with Vinyl still, and always likely will. On a huge club PA ala Funktion One type the vinyl is bigger, but I don't discount this is for distortions. Still as a DJ its nice to hold in the hands.

Anyways that is getting off topic but it would not hurt anyone on both the Pro sides and Consumer side to realize the facts, and most vinyl has been cut with a 18bit (at best) digital delay line from at least the mid 70s and not off the tapes like I have done.
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post #1449 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 07:33 AM
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Some official ABX tests done between cheap and expensive interconnects. http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm 

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post #1450 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 07:37 AM
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Do you think these guys really believe all this BS? Better bass definition, improved soundstage, more extended highs? I think these guys are high.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3rNxXg8--8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqUrxqCYPm4

I see those Kimber 12TC's start at $330. No thanks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

Do you think these guys really believe all this BS? Better bass definition, improved soundstage, more extended highs? I think these guys are high.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3rNxXg8--8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqUrxqCYPm4

I see those Kimber 12TC's start at $330. No thanks.


People believe what they want to believe. I had used $800 Audioquest Speaker cables a few years back ( Gibraltar )....which looked REALLY cool. I ended up selling them to someone who was obsessed with expensive wires.....good idea!

I had immediately replaced the cables with some cheap Monster cable ( $40 a spool ), and it looked REALLY cheap, yet sounded no different than my old cables. what a surprise;)
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post #1452 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post

Some official ABX tests done between cheap and expensive interconnects. http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm 

It indeed is pointing towards marketing bs!!

But one thing that does bug me is the small sample size. 7 listeners, and 1 listener on some tests. To be statistically valid, a sample must be of decent size to diminish the error% margin...

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post #1453 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 08:46 AM
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All ABX tests come out with the same result. Our test had 10 listeners doing 10 iterations each. 100 total iterations. All cables except one pair had no effect on sound. The one had a coil wound around each conductor inside.
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post #1454 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 08:53 AM
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"two subs per channel"

That means 4 subs in your system? Could you explain this to a neophyte? How do you manage the signals? What do you hear compared with a more traditional 2.1 or 2.2 system?

Thank you.
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post #1455 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

All ABX tests come out with the same result. Our test had 10 listeners doing 10 iterations each. 100 total iterations. All cables except one pair had no effect on sound. The one had a coil wound around each conductor inside.

 

Subjectivists deny ABX testing as valid for audio. However, you cannot deny a whole scientific method to bend reality to your interests for something as insignificant as hobby electronic appliances. 

 

Plenty of different outcomes in ABX tests. http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm Tube amps vs SS amps tests as an example.

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post #1456 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 10:38 AM
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And objectivists underestimate the power of the placebo effect on human thinking. "Bursting everyone's bubble" does not lead necessarily to the outcome that is desired aka "the truth will set you free".

The truth is not a definite formula for happiness... Denial is the human brain's protection against nihilism.

People's whims and need for irrational belief systems is not all bad. Some studies show that removal of these belief systems, while satisfactory to the "objectivist", leads to more suicidial and negative behaviors among phenotypically more subjectivist types of people.

From a purely objective standpoint, NO art should be worth more than the materials and energy used to make the object
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post #1457 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Some studies show that removal of these belief systems, while satisfactory to the "objectivist", leads to more suicidial and negative behaviors among phenotypically more subjectivist types of people.
If facing the fact that many High End items don't really sound better makes some people "more suicidial and negative", I'd say they have a serious problem.
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post #1458 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:14 AM
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Denial is the human brain's protection against nihilism.

+234324

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post #1459 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

And objectivists underestimate the power of the placebo effect on human thinking. "Bursting everyone's bubble" does not lead necessarily to the outcome that is desired aka "the truth will set you free".

The truth is not a definite formula for happiness... Denial is the human brain's protection against nihilism.

People's whims and need for irrational belief systems is not all bad. Some studies show that removal of these belief systems, while satisfactory to the "objectivist", leads to more suicidial and negative behaviors among phenotypically more subjectivist types of people.

From a purely objective standpoint, NO art should be worth more than the materials and energy used to make the object

Except that each one of the subjective "arts" ("high end" audio, alternative medicine, religion, you name it) tries to make something out of nothing, and sell it. Kind of funny, if you think about it, because out of fear for the "nothing" (nihil, in latin, means nothing) there are people willing to buy...nothing (for a nice price, of course).
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post #1460 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:30 AM
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Except that each one of the subjective "arts" ("high end" audio, alternative medicine, religion, you name it) tries to make something out of nothing, and sell it. Kind of funny, if you think about it, because out of fear for the "nothing" (nihil, in latin, means nothing) there are people willing to buy...nothing (for a nice price, of course).

It certainly doesn't have to be that these people are buying "nothing." They could be buying build quality, status symbols, design, nostalgia or rarity. But somehow, those qualities never seem to be good enough. Seems to me that the subjectivists are the ones that have set the choices as "better sound" or "nothing."

I really don't get why no other quality is good enough to justify the expense. These items absolutely must sound better, even if it requires construction of an alternate universe to make it so.
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post #1461 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post

It certainly doesn't have to be that these people are buying "nothing." They could be buying build quality, status symbols, design, nostalgia or rarity. But somehow, those qualities never seem to be good enough. Seems to me that the subjectivists are the ones that have set the choices as "better sound" or "nothing."

I really don't get why no other quality is good enough to justify the expense. These items absolutely must sound better, even if it requires construction of an alternate universe to make it so.
"construction of an alternate universe to make it so" is an excellent phrase. If these people would just admit that they're buying audio jewelry the way some people buy watches that are jewelry (and don't keep time better than a Timex), the whole debate would go away.
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To me, the feud around expensive vs effectiveness is sterile from the start. Some people say that people buying really expensive audio gear are dumb because something costing 10 times less will get you at 90% of the way... But some of these people complaining are buying Calvin Klein clothes.

To me, EVERY single living human has a "weakness" that often makes them think irrationnally . ( Irrationality is relative to each individual , again, following it's own criterias)

Some people do exactly the opposite, they strip everything material out of their lives. It's their weakness. And it's debatable too.

I might understand that people can't all have the same view on things like what is good enough or not... But I'm finding it to be utmost pretentious to say to someone that he's dumb just because he doesn't have the same criterias when buying something.

I mean, if I buy 1000$ cables just for the sake of having what's at the top of the line, even if it doesn't bring anymore quality, does it make me a stupid being? And... so what? Same can be said about the high-end purchaser saying that the guy with 2500$ speakers with monoprice cables is stupid. To every one his own, and his own beliefs too.

Ahhh, human nature, and the black/white camps in every field of life....
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post #1463 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:47 AM
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In other words, spend. On whatever you want. It's useless to stack money for the afterlife biggrin.gif

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post #1464 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post


I mean, if I buy 1000$ cables just for the sake of having what's at the top of the line, even if it doesn't bring anymore quality, does it make me a stupid being? And... so what? Same can be said about the high-end purchaser saying that the guy with 2500$ speakers with monoprice cables is stupid.

....

Religion seldom allows for a live and let live philosophy.

Certainly it is not allowed here.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #1465 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 11:54 AM
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But I'm finding it to be utmost pretentious to say to someone that he's dumb just because he doesn't have the same criterias when buying something.
But that's precisely the problem. These people are NOT admitting that they have different criteria when buying audio gear (looks, status, exclusivity, rarity, etc.). They sit there and claim with a straight face that they buy this stuff based on the SAME criterion--the SOUND, and ONLY the sound.

How refreshing it would be to see an ad for thousand buck speaker cables that says "we make gorgeous cables that SCREAM refinement and exclusivity, but we're claiming NOTHING about superior sound". Of course, you won't see such an ad in a million years.
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Originally Posted by Aarghon View Post

In other words, spend. On whatever you want. It's useless to stack money for the afterlife biggrin.gif

I am ordering (for me) expensive cables as we speak, not with the expectation of increased audio nirvana but because they look much better than the Radio Shack I use presently.

and, no one will see them but I and I will only see them when I connect them.

But guess what, I like the fact that they will all match and be well made.

It just makes me feel good to know everything is organized,orderly and not bottom end.

(I do hope they will help to lower the noise floor through)
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

But that's precisely the problem. These people are NOT admitting that they have different criteria when buying audio gear (looks, status, exclusivity, rarity, etc.). They sit there and claim with a straight face that they buy this stuff based on the SAME criterion--the SOUND, and ONLY the sound.

.

BS, I always admit that having blue meters just makes me feel successful.

The car I drive, the same thing. It's NOT to impress you, it's to reward ME.

I am just too selfish to care about impressing YOU.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I am ordering (for me) expensive cables as we speak, not with the expectation of increased audio nirvana but because they look much better than the Radio Shack I use presently.
I accomplished the same thing by covering Parts Express wire in a few bucks worth of Techflex and heat shrink:

s7raw v0.2.10

Hey, maybe I should go into business!
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I always admit that having blue meters just makes me feel successful.
Just because you admit it doesn't mean others do.
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post #1470 of 1762 Old 05-11-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Religion seldom allows for a live and let live philosophy.

Certainly it is not allowed here.

This sounds kind of weird, to me. I see everyone posting all kind of preposterous ideas (preposterous from my point of view), here, and posts are not deleted.

Maybe you mean you don't like being contradicted?
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Pioneer Elite Sc 55 Sc55 9 1 Channel 3d Ready A V Receiver , Crown Audio Xti 2002 475w Stereo Power Amplifier 20hz To 20khz Frequency Response 1 4vrms Input Sens , Behringer B215xl Passive Speaker Pair , Monster Clarity Hd Model One High Definition Multi Media Speaker Monitor , Krk Rokit Powered 10 3 Pair Mid Field 3 Way Powered Studio Monitors 10 Inch , Pioneer Andrew Jones Sp Fs52 Flr Stand Loudspeaker , Lepai Lp A6 Hi Fi Stereo Mosfet Amplifier 20 Watt Rms With Sanyos Chip La4636 , Kaleidescape Cinema One Ultimate Movie Server Silver
Gear in this thread - 475w by PriceGrabber.com

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