Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 67 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1981 of 2363 Old 01-11-2015, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Veda View Post
I would say depends on the topology. Power DACs / Direct Digitals are the future. No traditional amp at any price can match their low distortion when driven within recommended limits.
Are there any independent technical reviews of such products?
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post #1982 of 2363 Old 01-11-2015, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
A while ago a pro buddy of mine threw together an 8-channel amplifier using monolithic hybrid power ICs from, I believe, Sanyo. Inexpensive, quasi-complementary output stage, nothing fancy, but put out well over 100 watts/channel with less than 0.1% THD.

I'd bet the same ICs were (are?) used in many AVRs.
Check actual performance of the chip amps in the RXV-371:



Basically below 0.004% uup to about 45 watts.

The rise below 5 watts is just noise.

Per http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/ENA2107-D.PDF THD is specified < 0.01% in @ % watts @ 1 KHz. It obviously meets that spec and then some.

According the same source, the amp is full-complementary including the drivers and output stage which are appear to be in separate chips separate from the main chip.
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post #1983 of 2363 Old 01-11-2015, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Are there any independent technical reviews of such products?
Do you need one for comparing the superiority of digital vs analog?
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post #1984 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 08:34 AM
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With logic like ^^ that, I guess those new digital speakers just around the corner should be killer.
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post #1985 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 08:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Veda View Post
Do you need one for comparing the superiority of digital vs analog?
Contrary to some misguided beliefs, implementation does matter.
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post #1986 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
Guess I got lucky. A minimal investment and it sounds wonderful. What's available now for so little is amazing. Isn't technology great?
Fortunately, trickle down technology works much better than trickle down economics.
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post #1987 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius View Post
Fortunately, trickle down technology works much better than trickle down economics.
Politics aside, that really is the point that I understood iMagic was trying to make when he started this thread nearly 2000 posts ago. Really good sounding components are available for minimal investment. Sure, for the person who wants to eek out that last bit of sound perfection (whatever that is), likes the looks or function of a premium priced unit, then of course there will always be a niche market for it.

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post #1988 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 09:33 PM
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I don't think that high-end audio is getting obsolete. There are still people in the professional industry still doing their thing. But it may see that way when we have all of this technology(that is getting better & more ubiquitous by the minute) at our(as consumers/customers) disposal to choose/decide how we think we should make our audio sound "high-end".
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post #1989 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 10:47 PM
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Hi-end quality music ♪ recordings; that, is muy importante.
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post #1990 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Contrary to some misguided beliefs, implementation does matter.
I like your use of the word "misguided", as if the other party is definitely wrong. Hahaha... this isn't back in the 90's where I got too much free time to discuss such useless stuff. But glad to see you're still alive and well...
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post #1991 of 2363 Old 01-12-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DocCasualty View Post
Politics aside, that really is the point that I understood iMagic was trying to make when he started this thread nearly 2000 posts ago. Really good sounding components are available for minimal investment. Sure, for the person who wants to eek out that last bit of sound perfection (whatever that is), likes the looks or function of a premium priced unit, then of course there will always be a niche market for it.
I once ran some "high end" $700 speakers using the el cheapo $250 Topping TP32EX amp. Buddy thought I was running some $2500 amp and it sounded better than his $150k Apogee setup. Price doesn't matter in this hobby. This is more like buying wines, all about individual taste and preference. What is POS to me might be gold to you. So many people wasted so much time arguing what is better blah blah... I'd spend that time making more $ and just buy whatever I want whenever I want them. Cut the BS decision buying dilemma, problem solved, just enjoy the music.
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post #1992 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 12:10 AM
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All the money we made in the world, all the music we listened to in a lifetime, all that jazz will be forever forgotten when we finally depart for good.

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post #1993 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
All the money we made in the world, all the music we listened to in a lifetime, all that jazz will be forever forgotten when we finally depart for good.
Yeah but your Internet posts might just live on forever in some database.

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post #1994 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
How about the work being carried out by the likes of Devialet? Or Trinnov?

Maybe it's just a French thing...
Or KEF in the UK.
I love love the sound of both Kef and Focal.
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post #1995 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Scampo View Post
I'd enjoy hearing that little device - but not paying for it. The advertising spiel is rather amateurish - especially the precision with numbers, "exceeds... at least 1.000 times in terms of sound quality" (I presume they mean one thousand rather than one) If that isn't hyperbolic and a plain misrepresentation of statistics then one would have expected a better array of reviews than is the case. I wonder if it does sound significantly better than a Sonos, say?
Europe uses dots for commas and commas for dots in numeric presentation.
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post #1996 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
The class system implies one in which the classes are not fluid.

They most certainly are fluid; the founder of the next company purchased for $1B by Google may be a Stanford grad or a 14 year-old kid who rescued a ten year-old PC out of the neighbor's garbage and installed Linux on it.
This is off topic, so one and only one comment -
the orginal poster was right - the class system is alive in the US.
In fact it is measurable (google the 'Gini Coefficient'). The US is now more class-restrictive than the UK, which is saying something (search the Economist magazine). Of course, there are the outliers who do make it big.
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post #1997 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
The class system implies one in which the classes are not fluid.

They most certainly are fluid; the founder of the next company purchased for $1B by Google may be a Stanford grad or a 14 year-old kid who rescued a ten year-old PC out of the neighbor's garbage and installed Linux on it.
This is off topic, so one and only one comment -
the orginal poster was right - the class system is alive in the US.
In fact it is documented and measurable (google the 'Gini Coefficient'). The US is now more class-restrictive than the UK, which is saying something. Of course, there are the outliers who do make it big.
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post #1998 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 08:52 AM
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I have on on-topic question: Are there any reliable sources tracking the acceptance of high res audio? Is it becoming remotely mainstream by any measure? I have read through the arguments (xiph.org) regarding the audio irrelevance of the formats, but if content is moving in that direction regardless...

Observation - if any of you has teenagers, you might have seen this as well. Over the holidays I went into Urban Outfitters in downtown Boston on a family shopping day. What was in the middle of this deliberately trendy-hip store? Vinyl. Lots of vinyl. And players - not just any player but a vintage throwback to the all-in-one portable box for vinyl basement parties. The kind that had dissapeared well before I was tall enough to reach the on/off button on my dads system. Go figure.
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post #1999 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clpetersen View Post
I have on on-topic question: Are there any reliable sources tracking the acceptance of high res audio? Is it becoming remotely mainstream by any measure? I have read through the arguments (xiph.org) regarding the audio irrelevance of the formats, but if content is moving in that direction regardless...

Observation - if any of you has teenagers, you might have seen this as well. Over the holidays I went into Urban Outfitters in downtown Boston on a family shopping day. What was in the middle of this deliberately trendy-hip store? Vinyl. Lots of vinyl. And players - not just any player but a vintage throwback to the all-in-one portable box for vinyl basement parties. The kind that had dissapeared well before I was tall enough to reach the on/off button on my dads system. Go figure.
If you're talking about something like units sold per model or something like that, AFIK, there isn't. For publicly held companies you can get a sense how some business lines are doing but even then I don't see it broken down into something that might be useful to look at.

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post #2000 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 09:48 AM
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I think for audio to push forward a lot things are going to have to change. Sure, we have incremental updates in an evolutionary piecemeal fashion, but what would be best for audio is a revolutionary way of going about it.

Think of it this way. The Von Neumann architecture has gotten us this far in computing, but it's been around since the mid 1940s. That's a very long time! For computing to go forward there needs to be a new way of going about it.

I believe the same to be true of audio. Maybe there needs to be some type of audio consortium where a brain trust of audio gurus come up with something to replace our antiquated systems and methodologies so they can be affordable to the main stream consumer. Also, there needs to be some agreed upon standards in regards to recording and mixing. The loudness war needs to go away. Two channel audio is a dinosaur. Multichannel when done properly has the potential to surpass it in spades. CDs are on the way out. The resurgence of vinyl is a fad. The same is true of the retro vintage craze. Trust me, reel to reel, old Marantz receivers and tubes are not the way of the future.

Also, the consumer would need to be educated (the ones that can be educated anyway) as well so that they don't keep spending money on old school antiquated gear and recordings or so they don't persist in doing things because "that's the way we did it back in the '70s by golly, so it's good enough for today!" I just don't get that mentality. You can see I've spent too much time with the luddites on Audio Karma. I've been in my share arguments over the merits of distributed bass over stereo bass and it just doesn't seem to soak in with some people.

Now, with all of this being said, I am still a two channel audio dinosaur. Why? There are a couple of reasons. One is because it is cost effective to have a decent two channel setup. Two decent speakers are certainly a lot less than several. Secondly, there is a ton of inexpensive source material recorded in stereo. Basically, I'm a cheap bastard. I've compromised my system(s) because it costs a lot less.

At some point, hopefully, the technology will become more affordable for mainstream consumers to buy truly high end audio. This is already happening in regards to DACs, headphone amps and DSP. Younger people are helping some of these technologies along.
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post #2001 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yeah but your Internet posts might just live on forever in some database.
Same for everybody else; but who is going to read all the posts posted by all the world members from all the audio/v forums of the World Wide Web!

* Why not delete all history of mankind and start all over again from the very beginning of the universe; the Big Bang.
...And with abso!ute PEACE from now on.

_____________

Hi-End Audio will never die; there is just simply too much money to be made.
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post #2002 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
* Why not delete all history of mankind and start all over again from the very beginning of the universe; the Big Bang.
Well if the theory about there having been a multiplicity of Big Bangs is indeed true, your wish is sure to come true.


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post #2003 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 05:01 PM
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Multiverse?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

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post #2004 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius View Post
Also, there needs to be some agreed upon standards in regards to recording and mixing. The loudness war needs to go away.
That's rather unrealistic, as recording and mixing are more art than science. Setting artistic standards is what critics are for. If, however, it's pop art, then the marketplace (viz, Billboard) sets the standards.
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Two channel audio is a dinosaur. Multichannel when done properly has the potential to surpass it in spades. CDs are on the way out. The resurgence of vinyl is a fad. The same is true of the retro vintage craze. Trust me, reel to reel, old Marantz receivers and tubes are not the way of the future.
Spot on. Especially the part about multichannel.
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post #2005 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 05:55 PM
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Then high-end turntables are his story?
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post #2006 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Then high-end turntables are his story?


Not as long as some old dogs remain.

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post #2007 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Then high-end turntables are his story?
Well, they aren't her story. In a couple more decades turntables will be looked upon like RCA Victrolas or console televisions from the past. Quaint and charming, but quite obsolete.

OBSOLETE, Mr. Wordsworth. Ob-so-lete!



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post #2008 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 08:51 PM
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Object oriented music recordings should sound very good with the primary limitation being the user's ability to practically install sufficient numbers of speakers.

The space and financial constraints will likley prevent most "music for the masses" from being produced for folks who don't have the means to buy the gear.

You could have an object oriented mix that is downmixed on the fly to stereo when the need arises but it is unclear if the overall effect would be worse than we we have already.

Take an art world example: a 100ft by 200ft painting is possible... But is it practical as an artist to find this sort of canvas much less someone to ultimately buy it or even store it.

Even the instruments we use to make music (except perhaps the pipe organ) are scaled to human needs and practical concerns. We "could" make a 1000 foot drum... But will we or should we?

who knows where the art will take us...
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post #2009 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
That's rather unrealistic, as recording and mixing are more art than science. Setting artistic standards is what critics are for. If, however, it's pop art, then the marketplace (viz, Billboard) sets the standards.
Probably not, but I wanted to use the word consortium in a sentence.


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post #2010 of 2363 Old 01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
All the money we made in the world, all the music we listened to in a lifetime, all that jazz will be forever forgotten when we finally depart for good.
Yes exactly, so WTF are we doing posting useless messages in some net forum or wasting time listening to music when we can go out there and make a difference. Leave your mark on this world whether good or bad. If anything spend more time with your fam or make more $. Time is expensive.
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