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post #181 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


Gateway music?

Good though but I don't think it is what is/will occur.

Music consumption has been changed by the MP3. Young adults are now conditioned to listen to music with ear-buds and it is no longer a social gathering center piece. Yes, the very sociology of music has undergone change.

Look at TV. Do you know any young adults who watch it the way their parents did? This is another media forced to change it's delivery.

In both cases, the communal enjoyment of these offerings has already broken down and been replaced by individual consumption.

 

Young adults have not been conditioned per se, they simply have portable music options that did not exist in the past. $100 in-ear headphones plugged into a decent smartphone provide a spectacular audio experience that fits in your pocket.

 

As for TV, I don't know anyone who watches TV the way they did in the 1990s, regardless of their age.


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post #182 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Young adults have not been conditioned per se, they simply have portable music options that did not exist in the past. $100 in-ear headphones plugged into a decent smartphone provide a spectacular audio experience that fits in your pocket.

As for TV, I don't know anyone who watches TV the way they did in the 1990s, regardless of their age.

Didn't I just say all this? confused.gif

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #183 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


Didn't I just say all this? confused.gif

 

My point is that, thanks to technology, everyone gets to enjoy the way things are today; where tons of options are always at your fingertips. Young adults have (historically) not been big spenders when it comes to audio gear... they usually don't own their own home, in which to put a big stereo system.

 

Also, the tradition of having friends over and showing off your stereo system is alive and well here at AVS Forum. I've also noticed that headphones enthusiast get-togethers are becoming more popular, including group listening sessions. Silent Disco, mobile clubbing, that's all been around for a while.


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post #184 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

My point is that, thanks to technology, everyone gets to enjoy the way things are today; where tons of options are always at your fingertips—not just young adults.

Yes true but we all are creatures of habit, this is not debated. As such, the availability of MP3's and the like allowed for a different consumption pattern to emerge, which it has.

wink.gif

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #185 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 08:11 AM
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I'm beginning to wonder if technology, in general, is altering the way we live in ways that diminish our appreciation of the world without tech. That's a narrowing that seems at the heart of many things we seem to be complaining about. We've become more and more numb to experience, be it the great outdoors where few of our children care to venture, or the great sound stages of the past, no longer places to go and listen to real live music. Absent experience, is it so strange that the breed of audio enthusiasts is endangered?

Steve Schaffer
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post #186 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 08:19 AM
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For a fraction of the cost I can have a better sounding active studio monitoring system and build a house with a dedicated listening room without parallel walls.

And do I see a glass table between the speakers and the listening seat? really?

It was a quick Google images search for my current favorite speakers.
Agree the glass table in front of the listener is not ideal.

Studio monitors are not designed for listening enjoyment but are highly critical predictable tools.
Largely they are also for near field listening.

The best acousticians in the world including John Storyk state that non-parallel walls are a myth.
They do not eliminate mode problems and are much harder to predict modal response.
Room ratios are far more important.
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post #187 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 08:28 AM
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Love this topic!!

I am a poor young home-owner with a 4 and 6 year old and low funds to forward my love of home theater the way I dream. Example: I just upgraded my 10 y/o receiver to a 6 y/o receiver with HDMI (WOOHOO!! Getting fancy!!). It sounds a lot better than the old one so that was a win for $60.

I strongly believe in the mantra "Bang for your Buck". With my audio equipment purchases I hope to improve the sound, that's it. If the sound improves who cares how cheap it is?

I also believe every time you hear a good sound system, you have created a future opportunity to hear a better system. It doesn't have to be your own to appreciate it. I have seen Ferraris and Maseratis and can appreciate their awesomeness but I don't own one.

Maybe one of these days I'll drive my Aston Martin Vanquish home, go down stairs with a glass of Blue Label, and watch a movie using my McIntosh Westchester I. (Those blue lights and needles are pretty)

Until I have the cash for that dream, I'll keep it real... cheap.
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post #188 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post


It was a quick Google images search for my current favorite speakers.
Agree the glass table in front of the listener is not ideal.

Studio monitors are not designed for listening enjoyment but are highly critical predictable tools.
Largely they are also for near field listening.


The best acousticians in the world including John Storyk state that non-parallel walls are a myth.
They do not eliminate mode problems and are much harder to predict modal response.
Room ratios are far more important.

 

Any near field speaker can also be used for midfield listening. Studio monitors come in nearfield and midfield models, and I've heard some really good ones. In what way are audiophile speakers better than the speakers used to master the music in the first place, aesthetics aside?

 

Don't forget that Wilson Audio WATT/Puppy started out as a studio monitor. A pair of KRK Rokit RP10-3 monitors is a viable option for achieving 95% of the performance of the Wilsons at 5% of the price (not including amplification for the Wilsons).


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post #189 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Any near field speaker can also be used for midfield listening. Studio monitors come in nearfield and midfield models, and I've heard some really good ones. In what way are audiophile speakers better than the speakers used to master the music in the first place, aesthetics aside?

Don't forget that Wilson Audio WATT/Puppy started out as a studio monitor. A pair of KRK Rokit RP10-3 monitors is a viable option for achieving 95% of the performance of the Wilsons at 5% of the price (not including amplification for the Wilsons).

So what do these sell for? $1,000 each?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #190 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


So what do these sell for? $1,000 each?

They run $1K a pair, actually.

 

Here are some AVS members observations about the Rokit RP10-3 monitors, from a GTG I attended one year ago...

 

NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013

 

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post #191 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

$1K a pair, actually

Here are some AVS members observations from a GTG I attended one year ago...

NE Spring Speaker Shootout results thread - April 13, 2013


 

OK, thanks.

Let's say I want to use them for the barn, one pair in stereo mode. What is it I need to get my MP3 music to play?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #192 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post


OK, thanks.

Let's say I want to use them for the barn, one pair in stereo mode. What is it I need to get my MP3 music to play?

On the speaker side, you can plug in RCA, 1/4" balanced/unbalanced, or XLR. So basically you're covered. It all depends on what else you want out of it; at the most basic, you could just use a classic 1/8-inch to dual RCA cable and a smartphone. Beyond that, any decent MP3 player with an output would do.
 

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post #193 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

On the speaker side, you can plug in RCA, 1/4" balanced/unbalanced, or XLR. So basically you're covered. It all depends on what else you want out of it; at the most basic, you could just use a classic 1/8-inch to dual RCA cable and a smartphone. Beyond that, any decent MP3 player with an output would do.

 

It's that easy?

So I can just use any single source with out a pre ?

A CD player I have sitting around I can just run direct to the monitors or I need a pre in between?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #194 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:29 AM
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I have two systems at home.

The first: Dynaudio Confidence C4s for the fronts, matching Confidence center, Dynaudio surrounds, Denon AVP-A1 processor, Simaudio amp.

The second: Pioneer BS41s all around, Marantz 1402 receiver.

The first system sounds so much better than the second. To me, the price difference is justified.

R
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post #195 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

OK, thanks.

Let's say I want to use them for the barn, one pair in stereo mode. What is it I need to get my MP3 music to play?

Get a https://www.apple.com/airport-express/ and wirelessly stream from any smart phone or tablet from any music application.
I have a similar set-up in a detached garage with a dedicated iPad mini and a wall mounted https://www.launchport.com/ that I leave there.
It works great.
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post #196 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:45 AM
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IMO, there will always be high end consumer audio - forever. Hang around on the $20K plus forum and you will soon see why.

It's not about audio quality at all. Sure, they say it is but yet they eschew any scientific or technical measurement. Moreover some of these guys hold the founders of these high end companies in very high technical esteem yet their published technical credentials barely qualify them as a counter technician at Best Buy. But that doesn't matter, the stuff sounds great because it costs so much. Often the posts on the Ultra High End forum drift off topic into expensive cars and fine wines.

High end audio, especially these days, is not about sound quality. It's all about labels and what you spend. As long as we still have Tiffany, Louis Vuitton, Prada, Porche, we will have high end audio. The core market has always been the same size, that is small and elite.

In reality it is quite true that the gap between true high end audio gear - like pro stuff and commodity consumer products is rapidly closing. This is what technology is all about. Bigger, faster, cheaper, better. The audio industry is hardly immune.

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post #197 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razvanel View Post

I have two systems at home.

The first: Dynaudio Confidence C4s for the fronts, matching Confidence center, Dynaudio surrounds, Denon AVP-A1 processor, Simaudio amp.

The second: Pioneer BS41s all around, Marantz 1402 receiver.

The first system sounds so much better than the second. To me, the price difference is justified.

R

Love the Dynaudio Confidence speakers.
Companies that really manufacture their own drivers make the best speakers.
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post #198 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

IMO, there will always be high end consumer audio - forever. Hang around on the $20K plus forum and you will soon see why.

It's not about audio quality at all. Sure, they say it is but yet they eschew any scientific or technical measurement. Moreover some of these guys hold the founders of these high end companies in very high technical esteem yet their published technical credentials barely qualify them as a counter technician at Best Buy. But that doesn't matter, the stuff sounds great because it costs so much. Often the posts on the Ultra High End forum drift off topic into expensive cars and fine wines.

High end audio, especially these days, is not about sound quality. It's all about labels and what you spend. As long as we still have Tiffany, Louis Vuitton, Prada, Porche, we will have high end audio. The core market has always been the same size, that is small and elite.

In reality it is quite true that the gap between true high end audio gear - like pro stuff and commodity consumer products is rapidly closing. This is what technology is all about. Bigger, faster, cheaper, better. The audio industry is hardly immune.

Sorry, this is a ridiculous stereotype.
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post #199 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Razvanel View Post

I have two systems at home.

The first: Dynaudio Confidence C4s for the fronts, matching Confidence center, Dynaudio surrounds, Denon AVP-A1 processor, Simaudio amp.

The second: Pioneer BS41s all around, Marantz 1402 receiver.

The first system sounds so much better than the second. To me, the price difference is justified.

R

 

You paid more for measurably better performance and that's what you got. The price difference is a bit steep, but that's not something worth passing judgement on. I'm more critical of comparisons between gear with similar performance but widely disparate pricing. Your low-end system could use a sub, perhaps. Also, spending $130 on a pair of SP-BS22's to replace your current Pioneers does buy a slight upgrade in SQ.


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post #200 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

It was a quick Google images search for my current favorite speakers.
Agree the glass table in front of the listener is not ideal.
Quote:
Studio monitors are not designed for listening enjoyment but are highly critical predictable tools.
Largely they are also for near field listening.

Some audiophile ears need a burn in to get accustomed to ruler flat fr and low distortion after listening for years to overpriced sub par high end equipment.
The big tools are not for near field listening.
Quote:
The best acousticians in the world including John Storyk state that non-parallel walls are a myth.
They do not eliminate mode problems and are much harder to predict modal response.
Room ratios are far more important.

It's not about room modes but about controlling side & back wall reflections.
I would also spend some of that money to get advice from a real pro instead of listening to an high end salesman.
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post #201 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razvanel View Post

I have two systems at home.

The first: Dynaudio Confidence C4s for the fronts, matching Confidence center, Dynaudio surrounds, Denon AVP-A1 processor, Simaudio amp.

The second: Pioneer BS41s all around, Marantz 1402 receiver.

The first system sounds so much better than the second. To me, the price difference is justified.

R

Why are these about 70% more expensive than the KRK Rokit RP10-3 monitors mentioned earlier in the thread?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #202 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Sorry, this is a ridiculous stereotype.

I'll give some slack on speakers but with electronics, there are diminishing measurable differences between "mid-fi" and the "high end" products. I can go to most any "mid-fi" manufacture site and find published specifications for their products. But yet many ultra high end gear has no published specs. Why? When you ask it's the same old crap that current measurements are not good enough to rate their products so why bother. Or that current technical measurements are otherwise flawed.

Marketing BS, plain and simple. You want to build and sell technical products, then you need to publish established specifications. Otherwise it's no different than cloths and jewelry.

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post #203 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post


Some audiophile ears need a burn in to get accustomed to ruler flat fr and low distortion after listening for years to overpriced sub par high end equipment.
The big tools are not for near field listening.
It's not about room modes but about controlling side & back wall reflections.
I would also spend some of that money to get advice from a real pro instead of listening to an high end salesman.

Live music is far from flat.
Flat sounds painful.
After a long session with most monitors I just want to get outside and let my head breath.

Some of the big guys like Westlake Ref or Adam S7A do sound great beyond near/midfield if the room is designed for this. Most are not.

Side and rear wall reflections are easy to address.
Non-parallel walls provide no measurable benefit and only create problems as they are not predictable.

Who is a high end salesman?
I'm not and neither is John rhttp://www.wsdg.com/dynamic.asp?id=company/team/usa/johnstoryk
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post #204 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

I'll give some slack on speakers but with electronics, there are diminishing measurable differences between "midfi" and the "high end" products. I can go to most any "mid-fi" manufacture site and fine published specifications for their products. But yet many ultra high end gear has no published specs. Why? When you ask it's the same old crap that current measurements are not good enough to rate their products so why bother. Or that current technical measurements are otherwise flawed.

Marketing BS, plain and simple. You want to build and sell technical products, then you need to publish established specifications. Otherwise it's no difference than cloths and jewelry.


I just don't understand why every thread here seems to head this way.

I know lot's of high end audio guys who drive fine wine, smoke good cigars and have toy sport cars and not a one, not ONE is arrogant or show off or whatever else it is that everyone herr always accuses them of. I'd even call one or two humble.

What they are is better able to afford what many of us would have if we could.

Can we ever stick to specs without assailing the character of those that prefer these products? It appears not.

That's all.

Now back to a thousand dollar monitor system for the barn or patio.smile.gif
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post #205 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post


Live music is far from flat.
Flat sounds painful.

After a long session with most monitors I just want to get outside and let my head breath.

Some of the big guys like Westlake Ref or Adam S7A do sound great beyond near/midfield if the room is designed for this. Most are not.

Side and rear wall reflections are easy to address.
Non-parallel walls provide no measurable benefit and only create problems as they are not predictable.

Who is a high end salesman?
I'm not and neither is John rhttp://www.wsdg.com/dynamic.asp?id=company/team/usa/johnstoryk

 

You are a proponent of muted treble? What else, how do you like your bass? Isn't EQ a better solution than deliberately building speakers that are not designed to play flat?


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post #206 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trans_lux View Post

Live music is far from flat.
Flat sounds painful.
After a long session with most monitors I just want to get outside and let my head breath.

Some of the big guys like Westlake Ref or Adam S7A do sound great beyond near/midfield if the room is designed for this. Most are not.

Side and rear wall reflections are easy to address.
Non-parallel walls provide no measurable benefit and only create problems as they are not predictable.

Who is a high end salesman?
I'm not and neither is John rhttp://www.wsdg.com/dynamic.asp?id=company/team/usa/johnstoryk

Funny:

Just browsing the wsdg portifolio:

http://www.wsdg.com/portfolio.asp?id=ROCTHEMIC&category=av
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post #207 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I just don't understand why every thread here seems to head this way.

I know lot's of high end audio guys who drive fine wine, smoke good cigars and have toy sport cars and not a one, not ONE is arrogant or show off or whatever else it is that everyone herr always accuses them of. I'd even call one or two humble.

Absolutely, they are not all this way. Many welcome technical advice from professional technicians and engineers. Many will also quickly admit they lack the technical knowledge and are at the mercy of the consumer publications for review.

But there are also those who can't be told otherwise even in the light of hard technical evidence.
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What they are is better able to afford what many of us would have if we could.

Yes, they have been very successful at something or a small amount "born with the silver spoon" but those are also usually well educated. But yet many will scoff any input from electronics professionals. Now that is clearly ignorance.

Tell me the value in a power cord costing $2000 that is made from Home Depot and common electronic cabling parts? Where is the secret sauce here?

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post #208 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Absolutely, they are not all this way. Many welcome technical advice from professional technicians and engineers. Many will also quickly admit they lack the technical knowledge and are at the mercy of the consumer publications for review.

But there are also those who can't be told otherwise even in the light of hard technical evidence.

Yes, they have been very successful at something or a small amount "born with the silver spoon" but those are also usually well educated. But yet many will scoff any input from electronics professionals. Now that is clearly ignorance.

Tell me the value in a power cord costing $2000 that is made from Home Depot and common electronic cabling parts? Where is the secret sauce here?
People who fall for that kind of audio mysticism are indeed ignorant, and if they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, they're indeed arrogant.
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post #209 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

People who fall for that kind of audio mysticism are indeed ignorant, and if they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, they're indeed arrogant.

Your not arrogant, right?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #210 of 1835 Old 04-15-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
 

Technology is a great equalizer. The transition from analog to digital audio has had many ramifications, but the main one is simple and obvious—it's incredibly cheap and relatively easy to perform essentially perfect digital-to-analog conversions and vice versa. A $99 Blu-ray player is all the transport you need to feed studio-quality uncompressed audio to a receiver that outperforms even the very best gear from the 1990s. It's a great time to be an audiophile on a budget. For example, last night I listened to Dark Side of the Moon presented in 5.1 surround, from the DSoTM Ultimate Immersion Blu-Ray box set. It beat every 2-channel mix of the album that I have ever heard, and that includes vinyl as well as CDs on six-figure stereo systems.

 

...

 

I'm left thinking that high-end audio is obsolete. However, for audiophiles, the future looks much brighter than the past or even the present. The hi-fi landscape is dramatically different today versus even a decade ago. High-resolution audio is available online from multiple sources, and iTunes tracks come extremely close to CD quality. It's possible to get fantastic stereo sound—I'd even say audiophile sound—from a $250 pair of speakers connected to a $20 amplifier using a smartphone for the sound source. I know, because I have exactly such a system in my kitchen—a pair of Pioneer SP-FS52 towers connected to a Lepai LP2020+ amplifier with a retired iPhone acting as the source. In many ways, it sounds almost as good as my system from two decades ago—one that cost and weighed over ten times as much!

 

Just wanted to say that I fully agree with the idea that technology did bring us affordable quality. I personally bought the cheapest Sony Blu-Ray player not because it was a compromise, but because I believe this all digital-to-digital device which outputs everything over HDMI is as perfect as Blu-Ray player can be (except it does not support 3D, but I already know that I don't like 3D on home TVs).

 

As for speakers, this electro-mechanical component will remain a compromise between various design philosophies, size, maximum SPL and engineering ingenuity. Without sober, double blind reviews and scientific measurements we are all clueless and have no other choice other than put our money on the most convincing brand and the highest price tag that we can afford. Sad, but it is true that no matter how expensive is your system, you are never sure that you did the right choice or that the newly released, highly praised speaker "Y" is not better than yours. As I don't believe my ears nor I expect audio shops to have properly set up equipment for fair comparison that is also representative of my home environment, I shop entirely online & put my money on a brand that has the most convincing professional studio grade products, R&D publications & budget. Small and not so small wonder companies are too much of a gamble to get into. 

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