Is High-End Audio Obsolete? - Page 76 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 2363 Old 02-05-2015, 10:27 AM
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High end audio and diamonds have something in common

Diamonds used to be worth money since they could be used to cut hard materials. Eventually, humans figured out how to manufacture diamonds flawlessly so "natural" diamonds basically became worthless. Why pay more to get less?

So what do you do when faced with the fact you are mining useless rock? Advertise and create demand from the ignorant and make it fashion for the masses! Never mind that the diamond market gets many of them from counties in Africa that have the habit of killing people for them to fund their chaos. We can certify a rock to not be from that area...cuz everyone knows diamonds have different flavors depending on where they were found. Perfect!

The strongest armies are the richest? If that was true the Roman Empire would still exist or at least, the British Empire would control the world. The strongest armies are the ones that believe in what they are doing, will stick to the final result and never stop. An outstanding example of that is Castro and his rebels overthrew the Cuban government although they were outnumbered and poorly equipped. Another example is ISIS, they blew away the much, much richer Iraqi Army and overran the area quickly. However, they have now run into the Kurds which have an even stronger purpose but less weapons/people/firepower...and the Kurds are pushing them back. When it comes to that, no amount of money on the planet can stop a force that is willing to die for what they believe in.

After all, money is worthless...the only reason people think it has a value is because....they think it has a value. This explains how speaker wire can be "worth" $5,000 a meter. In reality, if you can't eat it, drink it, breath it or be protected from predators or the elements...it is worthless.
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post #2252 of 2363 Old 02-05-2015, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post
@blazar

CAT MBX speakers for some and starvation for many. You call that "it works", I don't. Empathy, compassion, sacrifice, sharing are equally part of human evolution as much as selfishness, competitiveness and greed. Both are different side of the same "selfish gene" coin. Everyone has an element of choice which of those sides will factor their lives and to what extent.

Noblesse oblige.
Don't get me wrong, there is no way in hell I would buy those speakers. The pricing is straight up foolish and there is no way in the universe that they sound as good as that price suggests. Simply physics would prove that to me. I can get a sense for how they will sound just by their driver configuration and design. This is simply not a value proposition (benefit/cost).

Trust me, the person who is going to drop money on those speakers has lost their mind or has some sort of disorder... It is not a good decision from an audio perspective much less being an otherwise wasted opportunity for charity.

These speakers are specifically designed to part a fool from his money. It is unlikely that that same fool is really considering other altruistic options for that money instead.

You only hope that the people at CAT who make those speakers are going to spend their newfound money wisely... perhaps they will "Save the children". Stranger things have happened. Perhaps the kid of the guy who owns CAT is going to "end world hunger" with the college degree she gets from the money that some fool spends.

Maybe we save Darfur, and some kid from some tribe ends up surviving and creating a new technology. Perhaps that technology might wipe out the human race...

Who the hell knows... the randomness of existence simply boggles the mind. All we can really do is "hope" for the best...

Blazar!
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post #2253 of 2363 Old 02-05-2015, 10:44 AM
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Just to note that I'm not interested in discussing current politics, only audio related economics of the extreme nature (Hi-End).

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All we can really do is "hope" for the best...
Nothing personal against the folks at CAT. I just randomly chose a figure and a brand.

Dreaming of human civilization expanding in Space and wooden boxes that pump air for someones amusement are not on the same level, you would agree. You never know which $500,000 were wasted on high-end audio instead of creating a Tesla, Maxwell or Borlaug. Every cent spent on Veblen goods is a cent not spent on innovation and improving quality of life. Hi-End improves nothing except inflating ones ego IMO.

I will never praise a civilization that rides at WARP speed yet it hasn't solved global hunger and united everyone under the flag of prosperity. If we don't change our mindset, District 9 and Elysium are closer to our future than Star Trek.
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post #2254 of 2363 Old 02-05-2015, 11:14 AM
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At a U2 concert in Glasgow, Bono asks the audience for some quiet.
Then in the silence, he starts to slowly clap his hands.

Holding the audience in total silence, he says into the microphone
"Every time I clap my hands, a child in Africa dies."

A voice from near the front pierces the silence;
"Well, stop clapping your ****ing hands then!"
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post #2255 of 2363 Old 02-05-2015, 12:38 PM
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post #2256 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Trust me, the person who is going to drop money on those speakers has lost their mind or has some sort of disorder... It is not a good decision from an audio perspective much less being an otherwise wasted opportunity for charity.

These speakers are specifically designed to part a fool from his money. It is unlikely that that same fool is really considering other altruistic options for that money instead.
Funny, people all over the world probably think the same thing if they see a picture of a new Ford F-150.

How many people would be saved if you only stopped paying for Internet service every month?

Really, everyone with any product the subject of a forum here are letting children die.

We can play this game all day.

Something not being worth the money from your point of view does not make the person purchasing the product mentally ill.
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post #2257 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 03:24 AM
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@kuch

Personal computers, phones, washing machines etc. are not luxuries but utilities.

Quote:
Utility, or usefulness, is the (perceived) ability of something to satisfy needs or wants.

Luxury, the state of great comfort and extravagant living.
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After all, money is worthless...the only reason people think it has a value is because....they think it has a value. This explains how speaker wire can be "worth" $5,000 a meter. In reality, if you can't eat it, drink it, breath it or be protected from predators or the elements...it is worthless.
Well said. This is why IMO the current version of capitalism doesn't 'work.' We need to improve it further.

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In economics, a Veblen good is a member of a group of commodities whose demand is proportional to their price; an apparent contradiction of the law of demand.
When given the choice between a $500 amplifier producing clean 500Wpc and a $5000 amplifier producing clean 50Wpc, an audiophile consumer will pick the 50Wpc amplifier. The first one has 1$/W value and the later one 100$/W value, therefore the smaller amp must have 'special' watts. This paradox occurs because in market economy consumers only understand price as a way of communicating with the market. They know diddly squat about watts, amperes, volts, regulated supplies etc. Only thing the consumer understands is price. If you inflate the price, the consumer will read this as product improvement. This consumer logic is unbreakable. Someone who bought the $5K 50Wpc amplifier will violently defend his decision to purchase it.
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post #2258 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 03:30 AM
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"Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure."
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post #2259 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
High end audio and diamonds have something in common

Diamonds used to be worth money since they could be used to cut hard materials. Eventually, humans figured out how to manufacture diamonds flawlessly so "natural" diamonds basically became worthless. Why pay more to get less?

So what do you do when faced with the fact you are mining useless rock? Advertise and create demand from the ignorant and make it fashion for the masses! Never mind that the diamond market gets many of them from counties in Africa that have the habit of killing people for them to fund their chaos. We can certify a rock to not be from that area...cuz everyone knows diamonds have different flavors depending on where they were found. Perfect!

The strongest armies are the richest? If that was true the Roman Empire would still exist or at least, the British Empire would control the world. The strongest armies are the ones that believe in what they are doing, will stick to the final result and never stop. An outstanding example of that is Castro and his rebels overthrew the Cuban government although they were outnumbered and poorly equipped. Another example is ISIS, they blew away the much, much richer Iraqi Army and overran the area quickly. However, they have now run into the Kurds which have an even stronger purpose but less weapons/people/firepower...and the Kurds are pushing them back. When it comes to that, no amount of money on the planet can stop a force that is willing to die for what they believe in.

After all, money is worthless...the only reason people think it has a value is because....they think it has a value. This explains how speaker wire can be "worth" $5,000 a meter. In reality, if you can't eat it, drink it, breath it or be protected from predators or the elements...it is worthless.
I think it fair to say that this thread has now officially gone into the $hitter.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2260 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 04:56 AM
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...I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area...
Excessive Hollywood bullocks. No other mammal other than humans produce food by farming plants and live stock.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

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post #2261 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 06:21 AM
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One doesn't exclude the other.

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post #2262 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 06:58 AM
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I guess all oversimplifications work in a way.

Back OT.

You worked hard so you bought yourself a pair of nice B&Ws for $15,000. You deserve to treat yourself and enjoy music.

$6,878,625 on the other hand... sheer decadence. At that price it's no longer about music, performance or even aesthetics.



It's as dumb as Puff Diddy's gold teeth. Maybe he is Organic Harmony's targeted customer.

IMO somewhere at $60,000 for a pair of B&W Nautilus is where the music stops. The amount of engineering, build and aesthetics accumulated in them (for me) it justifies their price. If they made them gold plated or chose the snail shape for sheer shock effect and not acoustics, I would think otherwise.



Where is the High-End sanity cut-off point?
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post #2263 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post
Excessive Hollywood bullocks. No other mammal other than humans produce food by farming plants and live stock.
A species of ants traps and keeps aphids close to their colony to "milk" and feed of the honeydew the aphids excrete.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1009212548.htm
Quote:
Scientists had previously established that certain types of aphids live in colonies where they are used as a food source by a neighbouring colony of ants. The ants have been known to bite the wings off the aphids in order to stop them from getting away and depriving the ants of one of their staple foods: the sugar-rich sticky honeydew which is excreted by aphids when they eat plants.
....
Ants have been documented attacking and fighting off ladybirds and other predators that have tried to eat their aphids.
Humans isn't anything special, so hug your loved ones and a have a beer. Smile!
Ok you specified mammals so, guess I'm going away again :P
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post #2264 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 10:32 AM
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This fascinating education on nature is relevant to high end audio because...

Are high end audio manufacturers social parasites? Possibly. One would have to be thrown in a cage and forced to build the stuff with one's legs cut off in exchange for food to make such comparison relevant for this particular example of ants and aphids.
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post #2265 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Trust me, the person who is going to drop money on those speakers has lost their mind or has some sort of disorder... It is not a good decision from an audio perspective much less being an otherwise wasted opportunity for charity.

These speakers are specifically designed to part a fool from his money. It is unlikely that that same fool is really considering other altruistic options for that money instead.
Funny, people all over the world probably think the same thing if they see a picture of a new Ford F-150.

How many people would be saved if you only stopped paying for Internet service every month?

Really, everyone with any product the subject of a forum here are letting children die.

We can play this game all day.

Something not being worth the money from your point of view does not make the person purchasing the product mentally ill.
Yes i already made that point in an earlier post a couple of pages back. In fact i was stating exactly what you said.
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post #2266 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 11:08 AM
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Well, all I know is it's always sunny in Venezuela.

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post #2267 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
"Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure."
That's actually a nice fantasy if it were true. All living things attempt to outgrow their niche and spread beyond. Evolution caused every last nook and cranny to fill with living things. The only reason a plant or an animal does not live in a specific area is that it lacks the sufficient resources or adaptations at that moment. Then the magic begins and somehow adaptations occur and a new species emerges that can live in that new environment.

Humans are no exception other than the fact that our intelligence created a wider range of environments to potentially live in. Even still, we aren't exactly all building houses at the bottom of the sea or living in the cosmic radiation of the atmosphere-less moon. Perhaps we will evolve to handle those environments... maybe we will have aquamen and moonmen or whatever. Even if we did, we would no longer be the humans we see now. In fact, it is just about 100% certain that a 100 million years from now humans as we know ourselves, will not exist. The remaining ancestors are would like be unrecognizable.

Humans are a virus? Perhaps... but it is ironic that without viruses, we wouldn't exist.

Blazar!
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post #2268 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 05:39 PM
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I like this thread; it has high-end value.

Last edited by NorthSky; 02-07-2015 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Typo ('has')
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post #2269 of 2363 Old 02-06-2015, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I think it fair to say that this thread has now officially gone into the $hitter.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I like this thread; it as high-end value.
Oh dear Lord...
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There are more good ideas than bad ones. ...So it's a winning streak.

And Lord has nothing to do with it.
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The new Harbeth Amplifier Challenge.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtilus View Post
"consensus regarding amps is that if level matched they will sound the same as long as you play within the limits of the least powerful unit, that is not the same as saying all amps will do the same with a given pair of loudspeakers."

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2273 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 06:46 AM
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There is only one way to answer these questions as well as matters of hi-res, cables, tweaks, and everything else - a competition. Be it break dancing, cheer leading, ballroom competition, or this.



Only one survives.

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post #2274 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 07:48 AM
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The B&W Nautilus is designed that way specifically to enhance the sonic capabilities. .other speakers I think are just trying to look flashy
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post #2275 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 08:19 AM
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Has there ever been a cutaway illustrating what's going on?

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post #2276 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 09:47 AM
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Look at the Bose Wave radio (waveguide).
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post #2277 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 03:51 PM
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The B&W Nautilus is designed that way specifically to enhance the sonic capabilities. .other speakers I think are just trying to look flashy
Those golden Organic Harmony speakers aren't even something that terribly unique design wise. The shape is Brancusi's Bird in Space.

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Has there ever been a cutaway illustrating what's going on?
Must watch video.


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The video doesn't load for me.

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post #2279 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 04:58 PM
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You have to double-click on it. ...Once on the Play [>] arrow @ the center, then once more on ... "Watch this video on YouTube." ... line.

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post #2280 of 2363 Old 02-07-2015, 05:28 PM
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You have to double-click on it. ...Once on the Play [>] arrow @ the center, then once more on ... "Watch this video on YouTube." ... line.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FKyfTsyYZI
thanks

figured it out

interesting

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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Closed Thread 2-Channel Audio

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Gear in this thread - 475w by PriceGrabber.com

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