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post #1 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I have never spent much money on interconnections and wire.

In all my systems the wire is radio shack.

That said, I want to upgrade.

As I understand it, when it comes to speaker wire, the only consideration needs to be gauge.

The longer the run the lower the gauge.

As to interconnects, there is no advantage/disadvantage to be had.

True for both RCA and XLR.

Subwoofer cable is nothing but dedicated RCA or XLR.

That said, I have also read that the insulation on interconnects can help to keep out noise.

So my question is, do I understand the basics correctly and how insulated do the XLR/RCA need to be?

Will the sound potentially be improved by the elimination of unwanted noise in a better shielded/insulated cable?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #2 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 03:05 PM
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Do you have unwanted noise now?

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post #3 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Do you have unwanted noise now?

I didn't until I added a preamp and placed it 9 feet away from the other source and power amps.

Drowned out when I spin/steam something but it was dead silent previous.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #4 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 03:24 PM
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What kind of noise is it? Is it a ground loop hum? It's definitely not the pre-amp itself? How about if you place it like your previous pre-amp?

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post #5 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What kind of noise is it? Is it a ground loop hum? It's definitely not the pre-amp itself? How about if you place it like your previous pre-amp?

can't be sure

I have had ground loop issues in the past but this seems different.

My other system had noise from the electric line so my question is generic .

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #6 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 03:57 PM
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Can't be sure what it sounds like?

How did you resolve the noise in the electric line in the other system?

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post #7 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Can't be sure what it sounds like?

How did you resolve the noise in the electric line in the other system?

Your question was," is it a ground loop hum." I can't be sure. It does sound as such but most every sound does that creeps into audio.

I resolved the other issue by disconnecting some components.

I could move the power wire and increase and decrease the noise as I moved it so I doubt it was a ground\d loop issue.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #8 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Your question was," is it a ground loop hum." I can't be sure. It does sound as such but most every sound does that creeps into audio.

I resolved the other issue by disconnecting some components.

I could move the power wire and increase and decrease the noise as I moved it so I doubt it was a ground\d loop issue.

The first question was what kind of noise is it? I was thinking of more how it sounded I suppose in any case. More a hum than a hiss, though?

If you can vary the noise by moving the power cord I wonder if that's indicative of RF interference or perhaps just not a solid connection? Was the power cord adjacent to other wire/cable?

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post #9 of 51 Old 06-08-2014, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

The first question was what kind of noise is it? I was thinking of more how it sounded I suppose in any case. More a hum than a hiss, though?

If you can vary the noise by moving the power cord I wonder if that's indicative of RF interference or perhaps just not a solid connection? Was the power cord adjacent to other wire/cable?

yes it was but not much i could do about it.

I have a plan for that going forward.

I am going with a power conditioner, not to clean up the power but to have only one power line run over the cables.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #10 of 51 Old 06-09-2014, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I didn't until I added a preamp and placed it 9 feet away from the other source and power amps.

Drowned out when I spin/steam something but it was dead silent previous.

How long are the interconnects between source and amps, and preamp? Are you using RCA, or XLR? If you've got relatively long RCA runs in a really noisy environment, XLR interconnects might make things quieter.

XLR cables are better at rejecting interference than RCA cables, although for the relatively short distances between gear in an average home installation the difference is usually inaudible. There is a reason XLR cables are used in pro audio where distances are long, output is low (microphones for instance), and the environment might have lots of RF, and electromagnetic noise.

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post #11 of 51 Old 06-09-2014, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

How long are the interconnects between source and amps, and preamp? Are you using RCA, or XLR? If you've got relatively long RCA runs in a really noisy environment, XLR interconnects might make things quieter.

XLR cables are better at rejecting interference than RCA cables, although for the relatively short distances between gear in an average home installation the difference is usually inaudible. There is a reason XLR cables are used in pro audio where distances are long, output is low (microphones for instance), and the environment might have lots of RF, and electromagnetic noise.

Jay

4 meter run

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #12 of 51 Old 06-09-2014, 01:15 PM
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Is the preamp on the same outlet as the rest of the gear?

If not, try running an extension cord for testing.

I'll be back later...

equitech 1.5RQ -> various digital sources > benchmark > krell pre and monoblocks > reQuest
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post #13 of 51 Old 06-09-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

That said, I have also read that the insulation on interconnects can help to keep out noise.

So my question is, do I understand the basics correctly and how insulated do the XLR/RCA need to be?

Insulation has nothing to do with noise rejection.

You started experiencing a "problem" when:
"I didn't until I added a preamp and placed it 9 feet away from the other source and power amps."

So, place the preamp closer to the sources and power amps. If problem stops, get better (shielded) interconnects for the 9' run.
If problem persists, use a ground isolater.
Like this:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214
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post #14 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 01:56 AM
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You don't want 9 feet between the preamp and other equipment using unbalanced (RCA) connections. It would be much better if you could get it closer.

Only a balanced preamp and amplifier will completely solve that problem (balanced equipment/interconnects can be 100 feet apart with no noise problem).

There are some RCA/ unbalanced interconnects that use a 3-wire design where the shield is only terminated at one end. This eliminates a lot of noise pickup.

This might solve your problem due to a less problematic shield configuration; it can make a big improvement.

The Audioquest Diamondback is one cable that is constructed this way. It comes in a 3 meter length.

I have used them successfully in a number of situations where long cables were required.
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post #15 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

You don't want 9 feet between the preamp and other equipment using unbalanced (RCA) connections. It would be much better if you could get it closer.

Only a balanced preamp and amplifier will completely solve that problem (balanced equipment/interconnects can be 100 feet apart with no noise problem).

There are some RCA/ unbalanced interconnects that use a 3-wire design where the shield is only terminated at one end. This eliminates a lot of noise pickup.

This might solve your problem due to a less problematic shield configuration; it can make a big improvement.

The Audioquest Diamondback is one cable that is constructed this way. It comes in a 3 meter length.

I have used them successfully in a number of situations where long cables were required.

The power amps and the pre amp are fully balanced, quad balanced.

I am looking at these http://www.audioadvisor.com/Kimber-Kable-PBJ-Interconnect-With-XLRs/productinfo/KKPBBAL%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1541%7C1545/#.U5cVPu8U_IU

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post #16 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

The power amps and the pre amp are fully balanced, quad balanced.

I am looking at these http://www.audioadvisor.com/Kimber-Kable-PBJ-Interconnect-With-XLRs/productinfo/KKPBBAL%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1541%7C1545/#.U5cVPu8U_IU

PLEASE don't spend that much for XLR cables! You can custom order lengths for very well made/performing XLRs from Blue Jeans Cable for a fraction of the price of those Kimbers.

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post #17 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

PLEASE don't spend that much for XLR cables! You can custom order lengths for very well made/performing XLRs from Blue Jeans Cable for a fraction of the price of those Kimbers.

Jay

Yes, I know thanks.

I just don't want Blue Jean nor Monoprice.

I thought these very reasonable considering. I just want to be sure they are not lacking in any way from what I need.

I preferred these but their are a bit too expensive. http://www.audioadvisor.com/Bryston-Analog-Interconnect/productinfo/BYANI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1357%7C1358/#.U5ciTu8U_IU

I still might switch and go with these. http://www.audioadvisor.com/Bryston-Analog-Interconnect/productinfo/BYANI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1357%7C1358/#.U5ciTu8U_IU

THe 4 meter run limits my choices and increases the expense.

Do we all agree that these more expensive cables offer no better protection/connection/shielding that the cheap Kimber I linked?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #18 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post

Is the preamp on the same outlet as the rest of the gear?

If not, try running an extension cord for testing.

Yes, I know. That was what I did first.

I have three 20 amp dedicated lines for this system but the new pre would require an extension and then the laptop and not yet ordered CD transport would still be in a different outlet/ different breaker bank.

I have the right power amp and right sub on one 20 amp, the left and left on another and the sources on the third.

Running the extension cord would leave the power line and cables running next to each other for 10 feet.

Using another outlet enables me to not even cross an interconnect.

Honest, the noise is minimal but what else do I have to do? lol

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #19 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Yes, I know thanks.

I just don't want Blue Jean nor Monoprice.

I thought these very reasonable considering. I just want to be sure they are not lacking in any way from what I need.

I preferred these but their are a bit too expensive. http://www.audioadvisor.com/Bryston-Analog-Interconnect/productinfo/BYANI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1357%7C1358/#.U5ciTu8U_IU

I still might switch and go with these. http://www.audioadvisor.com/Bryston-Analog-Interconnect/productinfo/BYANI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20/1357%7C1358/#.U5ciTu8U_IU

THe 4 meter run limits my choices and increases the expense.

Do we all agree that these more expensive cables offer no better protection/connection/shielding that the cheap Kimber I linked?

A proper XLR will have shielding around the three internal wires (positive, negative, and ground). I didn't like what I was seeing with the Kimber Kables where the three braided wires were not inside a shielded covering at the ends. I would suggest that those particular cables provide less noise rejection than they would if they were built properly.

Edit: The Bryston cables look nice.

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post #20 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

A proper XLR will have shielding around the three internal wires (positive, negative, and ground). I didn't like what I was seeing with the Kimber Kables where the three braided wires were not inside a shielded covering at the ends. I would suggest that those particular cables provide less noise rejection than they would if they were built properly.

Edit: The Bryston cables look nice.

Thank you very much.

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post #21 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 11:58 AM
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$425 for a simple 4 meter xlr cable? That's nuts. Spending more doesn't mean the quality/performance is increasing. Did Bryston even manufacture the cable involved? The terminations? Did they do anything but perhaps, perhaps, assemble it? Or just brand it to go along with their similarly priced amps?

I thought you were the one that said in a recent thread that people with the ability to spend big bucks were more discriminating in their purchases....that one would have to prove the performance for the additional money involved.....so what does Bryston offer over a custom made cable from Blue Jeans or someone else? I think Kimber is a joke for the most part so not even including them. May as well get some silly Audioquest or Wireworld jewelry while you're at it. How many professional studios buy the boutique stuff aimed at audiophools?

Why not simply buy some professional level cables? Or buy the cable and terminations and assemble your own? Belden, Canare and Belden and Neutrik I think are the "brands" to look for.

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post #22 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 12:17 PM
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Why not just move the pre-amp closer to the amp?
Why does the pre-amp and amp have to be separated by that distance?

Or just bring the amp closer to the pre-amp and install longer speaker wires?
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post #23 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

$425 for a simple 4 meter xlr cable? That's nuts. Spending more doesn't mean the quality/performance is increasing. Did Bryston even manufacture the cable involved? The terminations? Did they do anything but perhaps, perhaps, assemble it? Or just brand it to go along with their similarly priced amps?

I thought you were the one that said in a recent thread that people with the ability to spend big bucks were more discriminating in their purchases....that one would have to prove the performance for the additional money involved.....so what does Bryston offer over a custom made cable from Blue Jeans or someone else? I think Kimber is a joke for the most part so not even including them. May as well get some silly Audioquest or Wireworld jewelry while you're at it. How many professional studios buy the boutique stuff aimed at audiophools?

Why not simply buy some professional level cables? Or buy the cable and terminations and assemble your own? Belden, Canare and Belden and Neutrik I think are the "brands" to look for.

You realize the hostility is not rational?


Your view, of course is valid.

The more expensive Kimber XLR were recommended by Audioholics. They found them overpriced but indeed a good cable.

I will likely use Audioquest for the other interconnects and USB wire. I just need to know it does the job, then I care how it looks.

I anticipate no sonic upgrade but hopefully a little less noise. In any event, I will enjoy knowing the wires look cool and are on a par with the system.

As I said, I have been using radio shack stuff and yesterday I saw an Audioholics video that said to just toss them in the garbage, hey were junk. The same Audioholics who campaigns against expensive wires.
Here, most the advise (a while back) was that they were fine. Also I just recently learned that shielding was important. Before that I saw countless posts that never brought up shielding as a consideration. I guess my point is, although all wires are the same, tehy are not all the same. At least not exactly. BTW, this has nothing to do with me not using Belden. Belden is just ugly.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #24 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Why not just move the pre-amp closer to the amp?
Why does the pre-amp and amp have to be separated by that distance?

Or just bring the amp closer to the pre-amp and install longer speaker wires?

The audio furniture and positioning within he room does not allow for it.

AS with the cables,
the look is just as important.

Thanks for the helpful replies to all.

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75

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post #25 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 01:32 PM
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Whatever works...
If looks are worth a few hundred as opposed to less than a hundred, that's your choice and your money. Personally, I'd look at options to save $400 in cables.l But that's just me. wink.gif
Just trying to provide my opinion/advice FWIW. Hope you resolve the "noise" issue.
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post #26 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

AS with the cables,
the look is just as important.

I dislike cables showing and use channels to to disguise them. For instance in the pic posted the component in the corner wouldn't have those cables exposed like that. If I I had a 4 meter run along a baseboard where it could be seen it would be in channeling painted to match the areas it crossed; so I wouldn't have the need for a "cosmetic" cable. Is that possible with your intention?

On another set up I pulled the baseboards and drilled an entrance/exit, channeled the back side then went through the sheet rock to the areas I wanted to run cable. Just a thought.

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post #27 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post

I dislike cables showing and use channels to to disguise them. For instance in the pic posted the component in the corner wouldn't have those cables exposed like that. If I I had a 4 meter run along a baseboard where it could be seen it would be in channeling painted to match the areas it crossed; so I wouldn't have the need for a "cosmetic" cable. Is that possible with your intention?

On another set up I pulled the baseboards and drilled an entrance/exit, channeled the back side then went through the sheet rock to the areas I wanted to run cable. Just a thought.

They are not for display, the only one that will be visible when I am done will be the USB.

Also two power wires may be evident. I am not gonna move another electric box redface.gif

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post #28 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Whatever works...
If looks are worth a few hundred as opposed to less than a hundred, that's your choice and your money. Personally, I'd look at options to save $400 in cables.l But that's just me. wink.gif
Just trying to provide my opinion/advice FWIW. Hope you resolve the "noise" issue.

Thanks and I do appreciate the input, sincerely

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #29 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
AS with the cables,
the look is just as important.
Quote:
They are not for display, the only one that will be visible when I am done will be the USB.

I understand; I love when the wife wears full on lingerie under her street clothes. biggrin.gif
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post #30 of 51 Old 06-10-2014, 05:49 PM
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Hostility wasn't pointed at you, perhaps some towards purveyors of silly wires/cables. wink.gif Then again aesthetics of wire don't mean much to me. What were your specifications when you got the Radio Shack reco? Got any links for the Audioholics stuff?

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