Dig out your old turntable and hook it up to your home theater! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Dig out your old turntable and hook it up to your home theater!

I was rearranging my rack and had some open space that I thought would work well for a turntable. So I went to my storage room and dug up my old Dual CS 505-2 with a Bang and Olufsen MMC-5 cartridge that I bought right after I got out of college.

I had a couple of problems that thankfully were easily fixed:

1) Erratic turntable speed. I thought the belt was shot but when I took the platter off I discovered the belt was slightly twisted. Easy fix!

2) Loud hum. This one had me puzzled. All connections including the ground looked good, so I hooked it up to an old receiver and some other speakers - same problem. I opened up the turntable and all the connections looked good, no broken solder joints or cracked wires (in fact, i was surprised how the insides looked brand new!) but I slid of all the connectors and reattached them and sure enough, that fixed the humming problem.

Then it was a matter of opening up my box of vinyl and now I have another fun thing to do in my home theater. The music sounds fantastic, to my ear much warmer than from CDs. I highly recommend you doing the same thing if you have a vinyl collection and turntable lying around. Or go ahead and buy yourself a turntable - although I was surprised what even "vintage" turntables like mine are going for!

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post #2 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 04:38 PM
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I recently gave up my last vestiges of my vinyl collection. I had been carrying it around for a couple of decades unused. The actual vinyl went to an art student who was using old vinyl records in a project, but first after busting them up. The covers went in the trash. I saved two albums with rare hard to find covers. The turntable is still in the attic awaiting for me to throw it out was well when I retire and move in two years. I'm sure it's shot having baked up there for 20 years.

I embraced digital a long time ago and haven't looked back.
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post #3 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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- I have been looking into a turntable and some bookshelf speakers and possibly trying to replicate that old warm sound i still remember.

- I gave all my lp's away in the 80's ( to friends and record stores ) - along with my system to my brother ( when I moved and upgraded )

great news!!! - I just spoke to my brother today and he says the old luxman suckface receiver is still in his garage along with my roger

soundlab monitors!! - even better, he said he was pretty sure he had 1 or 2 of my turntables.... sounds like I will only need to buy a

new cartridge (and some nice vinyl ) to get that old sound back!!! -really excited on this end.... I still go to quite a few concerts and

they usually have vinyl at most of them.... - I might just buy stuff that I come across at the shows.... -along with some of the special

pressed stuff.... pictures to follow! : ) Craig
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post #4 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helmsman View Post
The music sounds fantastic, to my ear much warmer than from CDs.
Nostalgia and distortion

For the record (ugh) I still have my 70s vintage TT and album collection and take a few for a spin for old times' sake. My very well maintained 30-40+ y.o. vinyl still have pops and clicks that I hated back then.

Enjoy revisiting your albums!
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Last edited by citizen arcane; 06-30-2014 at 06:28 PM. Reason: clarification
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post #5 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post
Nostalgia and distortion
That about sums it up.

I still have several great TTs and lots of vinyl I bought new as far back as the 70's, but none of it sounds as good as the equivalent CD (loudness wars stuff excluded). The last thing I really liked about LPs was the large cover art, but I get that on the monitor in JRiver.
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post #6 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post
Nostalgia and distortion
Don't forget the LP's generally non-flat frequency response, and really high jitter.
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post #7 of 24 Old 06-30-2014, 07:49 PM
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Add that most recent gear doesn't have phono pre amps and vinyl is ridiculously priced against its digital counterpart (just checked the price of D Crosby's - 'Croz' on Amazon, $10 for the CD and $25.21 for the LP); also records degenerate from their first playing. Sorry don't want to rain on anyone's parade but this is fact.

Still enjoy whatever medium you choose.

Edit:
Didn't know Phish had a new release 'til I checked for another example for the disparity in price of digital vs. analogue releases ( Phish - Fuego, $10 for the CD and $24.99 for an LP on Amazon). WooHoo another in my queue to be bought tomorrow.

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Last edited by citizen arcane; 06-30-2014 at 08:36 PM. Reason: clarification and new info on Phish
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-01-2014, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point on some newer gear not having phono pre-amps. While I understand that there are a lot of traditional options and connections that have become obsolete and need to be culled from current equipment releases, there's no arguing that vinyl has made somewhat of a comeback amongst audiophiles. It's not for everyone but it would be a shame (and premature) to declare phono dead. Fortunately for me my Marantz AV-7005 had me covered.
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-01-2014, 08:44 AM
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http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...s-dusty-groove

From a recent article:

"I grew up with records, so it's the sound I prefer," said Medina, 45. The popping sound of scratches is part of the listening experience, he said.

"There is a presence of sound, because of the grooves, scratches.''

I've never heard much good evidence for the benefits of vinyl. It all seems to be more nostalgia than anything.
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-01-2014, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...s-dusty-groove

From a recent article:

"I grew up with records, so it's the sound I prefer," said Medina, 45. The popping sound of scratches is part of the listening experience, he said.

"There is a presence of sound, because of the grooves, scratches.''

I've never heard much good evidence for the benefits of vinyl. It all seems to be more nostalgia than anything.
Quote from same article:

"Young people are driving growth in sales," said John Arnsdorff, who in March opened a store called Audio Archaeology in Chicago's Rogers Park neighborhood that sells new and used vinyl records and record players. "They like the sound better.''
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post #11 of 24 Old 07-01-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helmsman View Post
Quote from same article:

"Young people are driving growth in sales," said John Arnsdorff, who in March opened a store called Audio Archaeology in Chicago's Rogers Park neighborhood that sells new and used vinyl records and record players. "They like the sound better.''
I would hardly define them as audiophiles. I tend to think of it as a fad. 160 million something CD sales vs 6 million LPs is hardly a revolution.
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-01-2014, 04:36 PM
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I have a friend that swears vinyl is so much better than CD. And that he can hear the differences between them. I have to bug him to wear his hearing aids when we go golfing...

When all else fails - RTFM!

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post #13 of 24 Old 07-02-2014, 03:46 AM
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i also have my large collection of lp's turntable, amp and tuner from the 70's.I agree totally on its only use they get is when i feel nostalgic . my grand kids love it as they see it as a cool thing from the past and are in awe that music comes from it.i also agree that its only a fad that the younger generation is accepting vinyl more and know that its not for its sound quality.but also if i enjoyed music a lot and if i didn't grow up in an era where it was the only way to play music (not like today) i can see the fascination there for the younger generation, just ask my grand kids. just my 2 cents

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post #14 of 24 Old 07-02-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher50 View Post
i also have my large collection of lp's turntable, amp and tuner from the 70's.I agree totally on its only use they get is when i feel nostalgic . my grand kids love it as they see it as a cool thing from the past and are in awe that music comes from it.i also agree that its only a fad that the younger generation is accepting vinyl more and know that its not for its sound quality.but also if i enjoyed music a lot and if i didn't grow up in an era where it was the only way to play music (not like today) i can see the fascination there for the younger generation, just ask my grand kids. just my 2 cents
Yea, I agree. I gave an album to a niece a few years back. The fad back then was to buy somebody a cd, but also find the used album to give them with the CD. I had a Dylan album she wanted so I gave it to her.
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-03-2014, 08:50 AM
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On post 7 in this thread I found Phish is releasing a new one 'Fuego'. While reading about it on the web I came across this:

WARNING: As discussed on other sites, this LP has a good amount of sibilance to it. It seems that regardless of the cartridge, tonearm or table, everyone’s experience is pretty much the same. Phish and their people have acknowledged the problem perhaps a fix will be made on future pressings.

This is another reason I would be disappointed with a vinyl release, not even nostalgia would let this one have a pass.

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post #16 of 24 Old 07-03-2014, 09:36 PM
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I recently inherited a 1976 Dual model 1225 from my parents and I cannot wait to get that turntable functional and part of my HT. Thinking of going with the Denon DL-301 MKII cartridge to replace the old cartridge of unknown age.

JR
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post #17 of 24 Old 07-04-2014, 05:28 AM
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I just received a box of classic rock LP's from my mother-in-law a couple weeks ago. She wanted me to see if I could sell them. As I started flipping through them I kept finding albums that I wanted to listen to, so now I need to find myself a turntable. I haven't listened to anything on Vinyl since I was a kid.

Any recommendations on a decent new or used turntable that won't break the budget?
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post #18 of 24 Old 07-04-2014, 04:23 PM
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Nostalgia has its price

I have a used Technics SL-10 direct-drive linear-tracking moving-coil turntable with no appreciable stylus wear, that I replaced the tonearm drive belt on a decade ago. There is one SL-10 advertised on Ebay for $500 (ridiculous price IMO). I also have an Akai el-cheapo belt-drive turntable that I use for severely warped and/or scratched/dusty/skipping LP's. The Technics linear tracking tonearm has a servo control that cannot cope with large horizontal or vertical excursions and is hopeless on skipping LPs. With the Akai I can adjust the tracking force and twiddle the anti-skate dynamically or even blow air on the tonearm to navigate warped/skipping LPs and get a clean copy.

I transcribed most of my analog to digital already using a 24 bit converter with 120+dB s/n (E-mu 1212 sound card). I can hear no difference between the analog and digital copy even using single-ended cabling (the turntable and receiver are single-ended anyway).

The waveforms show a marked difference between the Akai and the Technics. The peaks are pointy on the Akai and there is less definition in the high frequencies, probably due mostly to the difference in cartridge architecture. Sorry, I own no instrumentation to analyze with. Maybe some day I will load up an FFT algorithm and run an analysis on the data files. I am hard pressed to hear the difference even though I can see it in the waveform.

I find no compelling argument to favor analog reproduction on a mass-produced vinyl mechanical pressing of an analog tape recording that was transcribed to a master disc from which a casting mold was created. I find no compelling argument in favor of direct-to-disc LP masters either. The capability of A/D and D/A is so far advanced it leaves analog recordings in the dust.

I have a rack of vinyl halfway to the ceiling in my bedroom. I have been meaning to finish transcribing it and toss it for years. Some of it may be worth something but the truth is that old LPs are everywhere and only a few have collector value. (Does my picture LP of Dreamboat Annie count? How about the cracked triangular mini-LP picture disc from Asia's 'Heat of the Moment'? I have no 'original releases' that I know of.) I also have a box of commercial and personal cassettes I already transcribed with a used Yamaha 3-head deck that needed a motor when I bought it from the local thrift for $15.

I also transcribed some old reel tapes and I have a library of VHS that I am working on. Four old VHS decks already died in that process and I am down to one.

I found that the biggest improvement in my experience was replacing stereo with 7.1 and then replacing 7.1 with 11.1. The advanced Dolby Pro Logic IIx algorithm with Audyssey DSX running on top lends 3-d realism even to stereo recordings. There is no need to 'imagine' the imaging from two megaspeakers or depend on meticulous placement and expensive room treatments to bring the recording to life. Modern algorithms lend a realism that is like live.

I installed Sapphire/TSC towers and sattelites because I could find them used locally and on Ebay for approximately $100 per channel and they sound better than my ears can hear anyway even if some audiophiles look down upon them. I also installed two SVS PB10-NSD subwoofers that I found used, locally, for half price.

The front high speakers are SBL, small light bookshelf units with plastic economy cone/dome, horizontally mounted to the wall at ceiling height. The front wide speakers are SB, somewhat larger bookshelf units with metal woofers and plastic dome, half a center channel each, hanging at standing-up head level in basketball nets that are suspended from a ceiling-mounted custom aluminum tube and shelf bracket assembly, spanning from the top front corners of the room and out 4' into the listening room along the side wall. The aluminum tubes are anchored to the front and side walls with bookshelf brackets and all my hanging speakers require only 2 screws in the wall per speaker.

The front main speakers are ST2 towers, with metal midrange cones and plastic dome tweeter in D'Appolito array, and plastic woofers on the side. The center channel is the same D'Appolito array in a two-way configuration, with my sock stuck into the port to tame the mid-bass boominess. The four rear speakers are all ST3 with matching D'Appolito to the rest of the system (except the front high) and dual metal woofers on the side.

I have never heard a system that sounds like mine does now. I placed and tuned everything meticulously. When I engage the 11.1 algorithm, the room fills with a sweeping and precise sound stage, with individual instruments solidly placed and represented, and the ambiance clearly distinct from the actual performers. When I revert to stereo, the result is mush (relatively speaking).

Even 2-channel movies and TV programs sound like surround in 11.1. The algorithms that extract ambiance and random sounds to the front high and rear surround channels, isolate stereo (or surround) sources to individual instruments that localize to one speaker individually or the closest two neighbors in the sound stage, and decorrelate simultaneous output from separate speakers using time delays and piecewise FFTs to improve imaging and localization, are just amazing. The Dolby Pro Logic IIx with Audyssey DSX algorithm is the most satisfying. The ambiance of the DTS-x algorithm is muddy and distracting and the midrange is too forward.

I paid $850 for my $1200 TX-NR929 9.1 (11.1 pre out) receiver refurbished and it seems to have no more than the usual uncorrected firmware bugs. It is available for even less now.

Even with what today would be considered a 'budget' system composed of used pieces, I feel confident anyone (except perhaps the most finicky or delusional) would be happy with the result I achieved, at least until something breaks or wears out.

My recommendation to those looking to play LPs is to buy one of the inexpensive commercially available transcription turntables from your local Best Buy, or on-line, and save your LPs directly to digital. Do not buy an expensive 'vintage' audiophile turntable with analog output just so you can dance to Staying Alive on a skipping LP as the floor shakes. You will get far better results playing the digitally transcribed recording back from your PC through your multichannel receiver using SPDIF. Any advantages of an audiophile turntable will be swamped by the lousy s/n dust clicks static pops grain whoosh flutter wow rumble and distortion of the entire electromechanical chain (did I mention the tape hiss of the master?).
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 12:46 PM
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I do love hyper reveling digital so I can plug in my headphones and dig the sound of fingernails scraping down a chalkboard!
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 12:53 PM
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Many recent LP releases are simply mastered better than their CD counterpart. The CD gets the loudness war treatment, while the LP gets released as the artist intended. Look no further than the fantastic vinyl LP release of "Sound City" compared to the highly compressed loundness war crap CD version. That's why some say vinyl sounds better...it's the mastering. You can say the same for some older CDs versus subsequent re-releases (both plain-vanilla re-releases and "remastered" or "anniversary" re-releases). The original CD sounds fantastic, the later CDs sound like crap.

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post #21 of 24 Old 07-10-2014, 05:17 PM
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I recently broke out my Technics SL-Q200 turntable and went thru my album collection from the 70's and 80's. Somehow I had a Milli Vanilli LP in there...boo! Most of my collection is R&B and Funk (EW&F, Parliament-Funkadelic, Kool & The Gang, Brothers Johnson, Ohio Players, etc) with a sprinkling of Rock (Boston, Van Halen, Pink Floyd, etc), 80's New Wave (Boingo, Talking Heads, B-52's,) and early rap/hip hop (Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Beastie Boys, LL Cool J)

Anyway I enjoyed the nostalgia of going thru my vinyl but the first thing I realized is there's only 17 -22 minutes of music on each side. You've gotta flip the darn thing over too quickly. I replaced all my important vinyl with the CD versions anyway. But one thing you have to appreciate is the album art and liner notes. Gotta love the old Ohio Players album covers!

It was fun to do but the CD's are way more convenient, espeicially if you have a carousel CD player.

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post #22 of 24 Old 07-12-2014, 06:02 AM
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Done!!
Sounds good to me.
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-13-2014, 08:36 AM
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Not a chance for me. I couldn't quit using a turntable fast enough and will never go back. I can see where someone who collected a large library of vinyl would stick to it and for good reason. I love having everything on computer and being able to stream it anywhere in the house. I can create playlists that fit what I feel like listening to and never have to play around with all the issues of LP's. Not belittling anyone's preferences. I just never enjoyed it myself.
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post #24 of 24 Old 07-16-2014, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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My son (who's studying performance music and recording science at the Peabody Conservatory at Johns Hopkins) is getting into vinyl, playing from my old collection and buying some of his own (mostly classical and jazz). Funny thing was I had to show him a good technique on physically handling records since all he had ever manipulated were CDs and Blu-rays!
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