Are perfect 1:1 digital copies possible? - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Are perfect digital copies possible
Yes 39 95.12%
No 1 2.44%
Uncertain 1 2.44%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 27 Old 06-30-2014, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Are perfect 1:1 digital copies possible?

Is a digital music file able to be copied perfectly (Resulting in a 1:1 copy) between computers?


Just doing a quick survey. Feel free to state your opinion and why it is that way in the following posts. Also, if you believe that 1:1 digital copies are not possible and are willing to post about it, can you please explain what the difference would be between the source file, and the resulting duplicate file.
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post #2 of 27 Old 06-30-2014, 09:20 PM
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1s are 1s and 0s are 0s? If not then the file is corrupted and the OS would let you know?

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post #3 of 27 Old 06-30-2014, 10:28 PM
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Absolutely.

However, a music file "ripped" from a Redbook CD may contain read errors, and not be an exact copy of what was placed on the disc.

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post #4 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
Absolutely.

However, a music file "ripped" from a Redbook CD may contain read errors, and not be an exact copy of what was placed on the disc.
All true, but some ripping software such as EAC (Freeware) implements "Perfectrip" which compares a checksum for what you ripped with the right answer for that particular disc and track.

I've been picking up dozens of CDs of music I like but never got around to buying at the time at estate sales and ripping them. I built myself a PC with 4 DVD drives so I can rip 4 discs at a time which really expedites the work.

The vast majority of all tracks I rip pass the Perfectrip test.
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post #5 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
Is a digital music file able to be copied perfectly (Resulting in a 1:1 copy) between computers?


Just doing a quick survey. Feel free to state your opinion and why it is that way in the following posts. Also, if you believe that 1:1 digital copies are not possible and are willing to post about it, can you please explain what the difference would be between the source file, and the resulting duplicate file.
It's not a question of being not possible, but inevitable - all file copies between computers are perfect copies, by definition (i.e. same bits in the same order), save for very rare serious errors (such as hard drive bad sectors), in which case you'll usually quickly find out. Of course, if the copy doesn't complete, for any reason, you won't have a copy but something else, e.g. an incomplete file.

Ripping a CD may however result in something different if there are problems reading the disc. I've been recently digitizing my CD collection and only had trouble with one disc.
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post #6 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Been using EAC for my CD's and also HD Tracks. I wish more artists would offer their mastering tracks. Heck I would take 32/384 if given the chance
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post #7 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a proof of concept:

Users on Windows can install the Checksum utility:

64 bit: http://corz.org/engine?section=windo...ecksum_x64.zip

32 bit: http://corz.org/engine?section=windo...d=checksum.zip

You can then download this (Polk product manual)

Right click on the PDF and generate an MD5 checksum and post the hash back to this thread.
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post #8 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 11:51 AM
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Yes, a file based digital copy is perfect or an error will be reported. As a file copy is not bound by real time, any error can be re-read and re-written when it happens.

Now a realtime digital copy via an SPDIF cable between two devices or any other digital interface may not be a 1:1 perfect copy. There is no mechanism to re-transmit a byte with an error. Furthermore some protocols, notably AES and SPDIF have very limited error detection built in.

With broadcast grade digital video tape, a "clone" of another digital tape may not be 100% the same byte for byte. Realtime tape playback is error prone and while there is extensive error correction built in, sometimes there is an error that cannot be corrected and is then "concealed" or rather guessed at. Still as these errors are so few in number, nobody ever notices so in a practical sense, a realtime digital tape copy is more or less a mirror image as far as video and audio is concerned. But that is obviously no good for pure data backup like a spread sheet or other document.

So then how was tape ever used for data backup purposes? Well as you may be old enough to remember consumer computer tape backups were a write-read-verify-go back and do it again, process and if the error was repeated again, that sector on the tape was skipped. So it wasn't real time.

EDIT: Data tape is still used today for large scale backup, i.e. something like the monthly AMEX database.

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post #9 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen arcane View Post
1s are 1s and 0s are 0s? If not then the file is corrupted and the OS would let you know?
+1

This is what digital is. Same reason why video doesn't degrade via HDMI going through switches / receivers while analog sources do.

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post #10 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Yes, a file based digital copy is perfect or an error will be reported. As a file copy is not bound by real time, any error can be re-read and re-written when it happens.

Now a realtime digital copy via an SPDIF cable between two devices or any other digital interface may not be a 1:1 perfect copy. There is no mechanism to re-transmit a byte with an error. Furthermore some protocols, notably AES and SPDIF have very limited error detection built in.

With broadcast grade digital video tape, a "clone" of another digital tape may not be 100% the same byte for byte. Realtime tape playback is error prone and while there is extensive error correction built in, sometimes there is an error that cannot be corrected and is then "concealed" or rather guessed at. Still as these errors are so few in number, nobody ever notices so in a practical sense, a realtime digital tape copy is more or less a mirror image as far as video and audio is concerned. But that is obviously no good for pure data backup like a spread sheet or other document.

So then how was tape ever used for data backup purposes? Well as you may be old enough to remember computer tape backups were a write-read-verify-go back and do it again, process and if the error was repeated again, that sector on the tape was skipped. So it wasn't real time.
tapes are still used for archival backups if I am not mistaken. (For professional purposes)

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post #11 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smarcus3 View Post
tapes are still used for archival backups if I am not mistaken. (For professional purposes)
Yes, that's correct. Tape still has higher packing density than magnetic disk. The format of choice today is LTO. And when advancements for disk density come about, they can usually be applied to tape technology too. The decades old problem though is tape longevity.

Even today while most major movies have digital archives, most studios also have YCM negatives made and these are stored in the salt mines. Why? Well film has a proven 100 year life and is expected to last even longer. Tape, optical disk, magnetic disk, there is not a good track record for long term storage.

In the early 2000s Kodak was working on a technology to store data as 16 bit gray dots on film at 4000x3000 per frame. And this density was considered conservative. The idea was a data archive that could last at least 100 years without any maintenance or special care other than storage in a salt mine. The project was abandoned however but nevertheless was a unique idea to a problem that is still not solved - proven, maintenance free, long term 50year+ data storage.
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post #12 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Yes, that's correct. Tape still has higher packing density than magnetic disk. The format of choice today is LTO. And when advancements for disk density come about, they can usually be applied to tape technology too. The decades old problem though is tape longevity.

Even today while most major movies have digital archives, most studios also have YCM negatives made and these are stored in the salt mines. Why? Well film has a proven 100 year life and is expected to last even longer. Tape, optical disk, magnetic disk, there is not a good track record for long term storage.

In the early 2000s Kodak was working on a technology to store data as 16 bit gray dots on film at 4000x3000 per frame. And this density was considered conservative. The idea was a data archive that could last at least 100 years without any maintenance or special care other than storage in a salt mine. The project was abandoned however but nevertheless was a unique idea to a problem that is still not solved - proven, maintenance free, long term 50year+ data storage.
The same goes for vinyl records vs CDs. CDs have a 50 - 100 year life span while a vinyl disk should last 'forever'. Clearly you know what you are talking about and I do like the detailed responses. Thanks.

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post #13 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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LTO is good for 15-30 years. I would imagine that the span is good enough to transfer to other mediums in the future with a better stability for truly long term archival.

I'll bet the old style programming punch cards are good for 500 years
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post #14 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
LTO is good for 15-30 years. I would imagine that the span is good enough to transfer to other mediums in the future with a better stability for truly long term archival.

I'll bet the old style programming punch cards are good for 500 years
Yes, LTO is the current archive standard. But it is estimated to be good for 15-30 years, that however has not been proven yet. And besides tape storage stability there's the bigger, better, faster, cheaper problem.

Are you going to be able to find a 2014 LTO tape drive in working condition in 2044? Will you still have Ethernet, fiber, USB interfaces? Will you have drivers for the LTO drive that work under Windows 228? A film style optical archive is still pretty simple to decode even with garage built technology. At least that was Kodak's argument.

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post #15 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I am speaking more to the day to day computer based file copy.
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post #16 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 01:18 PM
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For a computer an audio file is like any other file.
Almost all what happens inside a computer or a network has error correction.
An exception to this rule is the memory used in most PC's, it is not EEC memory.
If some bits get flaky, it might result in data errors and it might take some time before you find out.
This could indeed corrupt any file but the changes are low.


One of the reasons I favor FLAC is that it has a build in checksum.
You can simply run: FLAC –t FileToTest.FLAC
Sometimes you will get an error indeed.


Use a sound backup strategy to recover from data rot.
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post #17 of 27 Old 07-01-2014, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseval View Post
For a computer an audio file is like any other file.
Almost all what happens inside a computer or a network has error correction.
An exception to this rule is the memory used in most PC's, it is not EEC memory.
If some bits get flaky, it might result in data errors and it might take some time before you find out.
This could indeed corrupt any file but the changes are low.


One of the reasons I favor FLAC is that it has a build in checksum.
You can simply run: FLAC –t FileToTest.FLAC
Sometimes you will get an error indeed.


Use a sound backup strategy to recover from data rot.
Thanks for pointing out that is akin to the 'Golden BB'. Others like to make is sound like the norm.
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post #18 of 27 Old 07-03-2014, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseval View Post
For a computer an audio file is like any other file.
Almost all what happens inside a computer or a network has error correction.
An exception to this rule is the memory used in most PC's, it is not EEC memory.
If some bits get flaky, it might result in data errors and it might take some time before you find out.
This could indeed corrupt any file but the changes are low.


One of the reasons I favor FLAC is that it has a build in checksum.
You can simply run: FLAC –t FileToTest.FLAC
Sometimes you will get an error indeed.


Use a sound backup strategy to recover from data rot.
Yep. ECC plus the right file system (zfs and possibly btrfs) can virtually eliminate data rot. Most personal computers do not house ECC in memory or in file systems
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post #19 of 27 Old 07-04-2014, 06:52 AM
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Thread analysis

Poorly worded poll. Of course it is possible. It is also ridiculously possible that errors will occur.

Just to comment on all the reliance shown above, a checksum is a quick way of checking data integrity. A checksum really says this: If xx% of randomly selected bits of the data seem to be ok, then it must all be ok. That is hardly a guarantee of "perfect". It is a guarantee of "adequate", as in, you won't lose the integrity of the original content that the 1s and 0s are supposed to return. Some small percent of the 1s and 0s may still be lost/altered in any copy.

But that's why asking if "perfect" is "possible" is a poor question. All the answers have been to the question: Will I lose my data?
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-04-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
I'll bet the old style programming punch cards are good for 500 years
Probably far longer if you use the mylar ones.

FWIW I was ripping some CDs the other day and ran into a few dozen that I purchased in 1983 and have stored casually since then. They all ripped perfectly, 30+ years later.
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post #21 of 27 Old 07-05-2014, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
LTO is good for 15-30 years. I would imagine that the span is good enough to transfer to other mediums in the future with a better stability for truly long term archival.

I'll bet the old style programming punch cards are good for 500 years
Archive is a real problem. Other than several methods of pits in gold foil, I know of no true archive. We had some requirements at work a few years back, ( 100 years +) so I contracted the National Archives. They don't have a good solution either. It seems we are stuck with continuous copy from one media to another.

I need to rip all my CD's one of these days. I have only had one rot ( Sgt. Pepper) our of a couple hundred. Many are CDR from small self-produced artists, so I do worry about them. I use EAC, but the labor to enter the metadata and find scan in skins is huge. My motivation is low because I have yet to find amusic server that I could put up with compared to just grabbing a CD and popping it into the 'ol Rotel.
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post #22 of 27 Old 07-05-2014, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiky View Post
A checksum really says this: If xx% of randomly selected bits of the data seem to be ok, then it must all be ok.
Are you suggesting that a checksum does not include all of the data? Just want to clarify before anyone goes ballistic.


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post #23 of 27 Old 07-05-2014, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
Are you suggesting that a checksum does not include all of the data? Just want to clarify before anyone goes ballistic.


Mike
I said what I was thinking poorly, I think I was tired. I meant it doesn't really analyze the data. It reflects all the data, but it doesn't really look at it to know if it is actually correct. It's just a calculation, barely more than checking the file size before and after.
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-05-2014, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiky View Post
It's just a calculation, barely more than checking the file size before and after.
A checksum is a lot more than checking file size. Basically, you take every single byte of data, and calculate a value that "summarizes" the whole file. Then you compare that to the known checksum. If they differ, there's an error (either in the data, or the checksum -- you can't tell which, but you know you need to transfer the data again).


The simplest checksum simply adds all of the bytes up and produces a single value (often the result is limited to a single byte too). The chances of an error slipping through are about 1 in 256, but simple addition is a poor checksum algorithm. For instance, you can swap two bytes and the sum will be the same.


More sophisticated algorithms, and that's what almost everyone is using these days, would use a CRC to produce a 32-bit value. Chance of missing an error: about 1 in 4 billion. With a CRC, the data is "summed" in a way that changing any data, or the position of any data, will almost certainly generate a different CRC value. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRC32 for a much more detailed explanation.


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post #25 of 27 Old 07-06-2014, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Archive is a real problem. Other than several methods of pits in gold foil, I know of no true archive. We had some requirements at work a few years back, ( 100 years +) so I contracted the National Archives. They don't have a good solution either. It seems we are stuck with continuous copy from one media to another.

I need to rip all my CD's one of these days. I have only had one rot ( Sgt. Pepper) our of a couple hundred. Many are CDR from small self-produced artists, so I do worry about them. I use EAC, but the labor to enter the metadata and find scan in skins is huge. My motivation is low because I have yet to find amusic server that I could put up with compared to just grabbing a CD and popping it into the 'ol Rotel.
Right now my preferred means for playing my music files has been to put them up in shared folders on my computers and access them with the Arris Media Player that my cable company (Wowway) is renting me for $5 a month as part of my cable phone/internet/TV system.

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post #26 of 27 Old 07-19-2014, 05:21 PM
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I recently ripped my cd collection (more than 400 CDs) and only 3 resulted in checksums errors. All ofthe others were fine, according to exact audio copy.

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post #27 of 27 Old 07-19-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habanero Monk View Post
I am speaking more to the day to day computer based file copy.
After nearly 20 years as a computer programmer, I can tell you that the answer is YES.
It's not even a question.

If it weren't possible, then your computer wouldn't even boot after reformatting off of a Windows Disc or Ghost reimage because the binary would be all corrupted and flip/flopped.


That said, is it possible for hardware and software to malfunction during the copy process? also YES!
This is why Banks, NASA, and Google run many-many-many computers each an exact copy of the other, in case one fails, the others keep going flawlessly as if nothing happened, and an admin alert is sent out to have them replace the 1 or 2 broken machines.
But under normal working conditions (which is like 99.99999999% of the time), it will be flawless every time with just A to B, and no other backup systems in place.

If you woke up each morning and had a totally-unexpected Bank Account Balance because files and emails didn't copy around correctly, the whole world would collapse into flesh eating zombies within less than 3 days!

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