Considering a 2 channel system, listened to B&W, Dynaudio and Focal..need an amp too! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 71 Old 07-08-2014, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Considering a 2 channel system, listened to B&W, Dynaudio and Focal..need an amp too!

My HT system is on hold since we just moved and will need to have the basement completed. I am seriously considering getting a decent 2 channel setup for the family room with the speakers on either side of the fireplace with TV mounted above.

I want to occasionally be able to use the speakers to listen to the TV but am not interested in a 5.1 setup at all. I also threw out all my CD's and have all of the music on iTunes within my computer. Is there a way to get these not so high quality iTunes songs/albums to sound good?

Listened to B&W 805, 804D, Dynaudio and Focal Electra 1038 be 2 speakers today. By far my fav was the Focal. Only "issue" is they had it mated to a Devialet amp/dac that was $16,000. Definitely not looking to spend that much at all. I am hoping to find the Focal speakers for considerably less than the $10K I was quoted.

My question is what are my amp and pre amp options? I have an Emotiva XPA-5 that I could use but not sure if that is a good match to the Focal speakers.

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to assemble this and NOT spend $26,000 on just speakers and the Devialet? The other dealer recommended a Peachtree setup...

Thanks.

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post #2 of 71 Old 07-08-2014, 06:42 PM
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"Any thoughts or suggestions on how to assemble this and NOT spend $26,000 on just speakers and the Devialet? The other dealer recommended a Peachtree setup.."

You are an advanced member according to the avatar. Did you not follow any of the discussions regarding amp cost vs. quality of whom are many, with many recommendations?
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post #3 of 71 Old 07-08-2014, 10:50 PM
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I've had great success with an Oppo 105 USB DAC and an Emotiva XSP-1 pre-amp for 2-ch. It's just over $2000.

XPA-5 should be fine, every amp on the planet outputs no more than 0.1% distortion below clipping,
where as it is very common for most speakers produce 5 to 50% distortion, especially below 100hz, the acoustic reflections from walls can cause massive amounts of distortion too without room treatments, up to 50% of the sound you hear in actually the room (take a listen to these samples if you don't believe me: http://theremin.music.uiowa.edu/MIS.html the room makes a difference!)
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post #4 of 71 Old 07-08-2014, 11:01 PM
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I'd bring the speakers home and hook 'em up to the Emotiva.

93db sensitivity - not terribly taxing on the amplification at reasonable levels. The Emotiva specs - 300w @ 4ohm - way plenty of basic power there.

That's a lot of speaker, what do you have now?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile
Is there a way to get these not so high quality iTunes songs/albums to sound good?"
Check the trashcan for your CDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile
My question is what are my amp and pre amp options?
Get a little DAC with volume control to receive digits from your Computer and TV. No preamp needed to get started.


edit: I think I see you have 8 18" subs in storage for your new theatre. Ok, you're on your own here... You probably don't need my advice. You probably know what you're doing, just fishing for confirmation.
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I'll be back later...


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post #5 of 71 Old 07-08-2014, 11:16 PM
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You really should take your CDs and convert them to Apple Lossless if your playback is via Apple eco system.
This lets your iTunes work and also you don't lose out to compression with AAC files that are 256bitrate. This is how you might get more out of your music with a reasonable stereo system.

I should say it also depends greatly on the type of music you own/play.
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post #6 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
My HT system is on hold since we just moved and will need to have the basement completed. I am seriously considering getting a decent 2 channel setup for the family room with the speakers on either side of the fireplace with TV mounted above.

I want to occasionally be able to use the speakers to listen to the TV but am not interested in a 5.1 setup at all. I also threw out all my CD's and have all of the music on iTunes within my computer. Is there a way to get these not so high quality iTunes songs/albums to sound good?

Listened to B&W 805, 804D, Dynaudio and Focal Electra 1038 be 2 speakers today. By far my fav was the Focal. Only "issue" is they had it mated to a Devialet amp/dac that was $16,000. Definitely not looking to spend that much at all. I am hoping to find the Focal speakers for considerably less than the $10K I was quoted.

My question is what are my amp and pre amp options? I have an Emotiva XPA-5 that I could use but not sure if that is a good match to the Focal speakers.

Any thoughts or suggestions on how to assemble this and NOT spend $26,000 on just speakers and the Devialet? The other dealer recommended a Peachtree setup...

Thanks.

If the Focal speakers are what you like then that is what you should buy. The electronics aren't important in terms of sound quality. That is all in the speakers and room acoustics. What you have will make the speakers sound the same (in the dealer's showroom at least.)
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post #7 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 02:12 PM
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All of those speakers would sound great in the right room, its a matter of which one would be good for your room.
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post #8 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 02:22 PM
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btw..you did rip them lossless right and you do have backup in a different drive?
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post #9 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 02:35 PM
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I am most fond of Parasound amps. I hear good things on Outlaw. Many like the Emo. Can't beat the try and return policy on Emo and Outlaw.
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post #10 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post
You really should take your CDs and convert them to Apple Lossless if your playback is via Apple eco system.
This lets your iTunes work and also you don't lose out to compression with AAC files that are 256bitrate. This is how you might get more out of your music with a reasonable stereo system.

I should say it also depends greatly on the type of music you own/play.
x2

I'm currently in the process of doing just that myself (about 1/4 way through...goes faster than I thought it would). Makes a huge difference.

As for the various speakers and whatnot: don't buy any high-end speakers/amp without trying them in your home. I just bought some B&W CM1's and had them at home for over a week on loan/demo. I also tried some towers and other bookshelfs before deciding. Basically discovered towers wouldn't work very well in my cramped space. Bookshelfs on stands sounded much better. Any high-end dealer will be happy to let you demo at home, you just need to give them a credit card number.
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post #11 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
If the Focal speakers are what you like then that is what you should buy. The electronics aren't important in terms of sound quality. That is all in the speakers and room acoustics. What you have will make the speakers sound the same (in the dealer's showroom at least.)
I have to be in disagreement on that point...

I'll be back later...


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post #12 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
I have to be in disagreement on that point...
what do you bring to the table that suggests FMW's statement is wrong?

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
LOL!
Why you wouldn't want to join this forum
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post #13 of 71 Old 07-09-2014, 11:44 PM
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An amp is an amp. If it sounds different from a bunch of others then there must be something wrong with it. Same goes to cables (and many other "audio" products). Don't be a fool.

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post #14 of 71 Old 07-10-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
I have to be in disagreement on that point...

Most people are. But most people haven't been through years of bias controlled listening tests.
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post #15 of 71 Old 07-10-2014, 07:06 PM
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I would stick with emotiva or outlaw depending on what you want. If you are not sure if you will some day turn this into a HT setup get mono blocks, I own the outlaw 2200s and like them a lot {I have them in a music only 2.2 system}, you can always add another to power your front stage later on, and they hold their value well...

Emotiva is a great option too, I doubt you will hear a difference between amps of the same class...
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post #16 of 71 Old 07-11-2014, 12:08 PM
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I'm selling my, little over year and a half old, MA Silver RX8 for $1,150.00 (free shipping within CONUS). I'm the original owner and they're in excellent condition (like new). I really took good care of them they are packed in their original boxes.

Here are the specs:

System Format: 3 Way
Frequency Response: 32Hz - 35kHz
Sensitivity (1W@1M): 90dB
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Maximum SPL (dBA): 116.2
Power Handling (RMS): 175W
Recommended Amplifier Requirements (RMS): 50 - 175W
Bass Alignment: Bass reflex.
Twin HiVe®II port System
Tweeter Crossover Frequency: LF/MF: 300Hz
MF/HF: 2.2 kHz
Drive Unit Complement: 2 x 6" RST® Bass drivers.
1 x 6" RST® Bass/Mid driver.
1 x 1" (25mm) C-CAM® gold dome tweeter
Product External Dimensions:
(H x W x D)
inc. plinth & feet 960 x 275 x 388 mm (37 13/16 x 10 13/16 x 15 1/4 inch)
Individual Weight: 21.76 Kg (47.88 lb)

Pictures are available ( I can PM it to you)

Sources ---> Clearaudio Concept TT, Onkyo CDP, MacBook Pro/Audirvana
Pre/DAC & Power Amp ---> Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Stage, Emotiva Stealth DC-1 Pre/DAC, Emotiva XPA-1L Monos
Speaker ---> Dynaudio Excite X34
Cable ---> Audioquest Type 8 Speaker Cable, Emotiva Interconnect Cables
Headphone ----> Onkyo ES-CTI300 (SS)
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post #17 of 71 Old 07-11-2014, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcloud View Post
I would stick with emotiva or outlaw depending on what you want. ..
why?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #18 of 71 Old 07-11-2014, 08:59 PM
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why?
You seem to get a lot for your money with them 2 companies, there are a couple others that offer a good dollar to watt ratio but Emo and Outlaw have great CS {in my experiences}, you can stay under $1 per watt in most cases...

I have heard {and owned} some costly amps and I can not think of one that sounded "better" than the affordable direct sale stuff...

For example I bought a USP1 pre amp with a pair of XPA1 1000w mono blocks for under $2500 a while back, even now I can not think of one brand or equipment that could compete with that setup for even twice the price... I now have an xpa2 with an xda2 in that room since I just use an ipad/pure i20 in there, which I cost me under $1000 for both pieces at an emo show also a very hard price to beat.. I have a parasound preamp with a pair of outlaw mono blocks that cost me under $1000, also a tough act to follow for that kind of money...

I don't put a ton of stock into the electronics of a system, a decent dac {more concerned with the features and ease of use} and a decent amplifier {to me they all sound the same} and you can put all that saved money into the speakers.... I have a pair of epos epic2's that I power with a topping tp60 {very affordable amp} and I have had many people compliment the output and clarity of that system {cost me under $500 total}....

save money and concentrate on $ per watt, as long as it comes with a good warranty and has a decent track record...
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post #19 of 71 Old 07-12-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcloud View Post
You seem to get a lot for your money with them 2 companies, there are a couple others that offer a good dollar to watt ratio but Emo and Outlaw have great CS {in my experiences}, you can stay under $1 per watt in most cases...

I have heard {and owned} some costly amps and I can not think of one that sounded "better" than the affordable direct sale stuff...

For example I bought a USP1 pre amp with a pair of XPA1 1000w mono blocks for under $2500 a while back, even now I can not think of one brand or equipment that could compete with that setup for even twice the price... I now have an xpa2 with an xda2 in that room since I just use an ipad/pure i20 in there, which I cost me under $1000 for both pieces at an emo show also a very hard price to beat.. I have a parasound preamp with a pair of outlaw mono blocks that cost me under $1000, also a tough act to follow for that kind of money...

I don't put a ton of stock into the electronics of a system, a decent dac {more concerned with the features and ease of use} and a decent amplifier {to me they all sound the same} and you can put all that saved money into the speakers.... I have a pair of epos epic2's that I power with a topping tp60 {very affordable amp} and I have had many people compliment the output and clarity of that system {cost me under $500 total}....

save money and concentrate on $ per watt, as long as it comes with a good warranty and has a decent track record...
I become concerned about a brand like Emotiva when I am not sure of what shortcuts may have been taken in production to keep the lower price.

I know I read here in the past that some products were not in compliance with USA code. That concerns me.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #20 of 71 Old 07-12-2014, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
I become concerned about a brand like Emotiva when I am not sure of what shortcuts may have been taken in production to keep the lower price.

I know I read here in the past that some products were not in compliance with USA code. That concerns me.

Not sure about any of that, all of the units I have bought have worked great for years, since it is not a car seat for my new born, a fire detector, or microwave I guess I didn't look too much into its code compliance... I have home owners insurance, gfi outlets, smoke detectors, circuit breakers, ect to insure I don't burn to death in my sleep.... I have also yet to hear about a unit causing a problem or safety resulted injury {a friend of mine lost a toe nail due to dropping an xpa5 on his foot, side note the amp didn't get a scratch and worked great, true story...}...

I am in business and I can tell you one thing I learned from years of experience, COST HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH QUALITY, its all about VALUE...... Sounds crazy but a professor in one of my business management courses said this years ago... There are too many variables in final cost to let that be an indicator of quality. So company A sells product #1 for $500 Company B sells a similar product for $200, does that mean company B's cut corners? Or does it mean company A has higher over heads, higher profits, lower production, ect?
In the case of Emotiva I can tell you no one is getting rich, they make money, but they aren't making what I think they would for the volume they do, so that leads me to believe lower profits, they do a lot of production out of the US = lower over head, they sell direct = less hands in the pot, they are family run = less corporate costs, ect , ect, ect...

As far as build quality goes, a 5 year transferable warranty should ease your mind, I have had my XPA5 for a long time and that gets used A LOT, when ever the tv is on that thing is on, never had an issue with it to date {knock on wood}. They have no secrets, order the unit, bring it home, open it up, compare it to the competition, if its not what you want send it back and get a refund....

I don't see anything wrong with emo or outlaw, the products work, the resale value is great, warranty, free shipping, trial periods, all good stuff.... Sure you will have the guys that spent thousands more on a lesser product using the internet to dilute their feelings of regret with bad mouthing and public doubting, but for the most part you have a lot of happy customer, I my self own a half dozen of their amps and love them all, rite down to the mini x in my pc system....

It all comes down to what the end user likes, its their wallet, so with me I like the bulk of my money to stay in my wallet so when I need a pair of 1000watt mono blocks I ask my self "do I want to spend $2000 or $20,000"? The answer is obvious to me, but others may ask themselves "do I want an off brand or a high class name brand?" I could care less about the name, and since I have personally compared the sound of emo products against other more expensive units and can not hear a difference, I am in the "an amp is an amp" and "speaker cables and just wires" camp....

Buy what catches your eye and please your ear, you only live once and you can't take it with you so if name plates make you happy, then buy Mcintosh, Bryston, Levinson, Burnester, ect... A friend of mine has a pair of gallo speakers with a burmester amps, $500 power cords, $800 speaker cables, and a $1200 stand, it looks awesome and sounds great, but when he had to send one of his amps in for service I let him borrow one of my XPA2's and he loved it, he couldnt belive the output, the cost, and how cool it ran, he still has his big dollar system, but when he built his home theater he used emo amps.... You kind of just have to get them home and try them out, maybe you will love them, maybe you will think everyone that owns one is crazy...
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post #21 of 71 Old 07-12-2014, 05:26 PM
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Have you given any thought about buying a system that will handle your two channel needs but also expandable to Home Theater in the future? 5.1 or 7.1?

If you are going separates there are a lot of choices. If you really are looking at Home Theater, then make sure whatever speaker you choose also has an excellent center channel as that will be critical for movies.

I started out with Paradigm speakers and a Pioneer SC65 AVR. The SC65 was converted to a "Preamp" when I added my Wyred4Sound 7.1 MMC at 221 wpc. This is a "Class D" amplifier and there are a lot of purists out there that swear by "Class A." But I've been very, very happy with it's performance and it fits nicely on the rack without sucking a lot of energy.

I've just added a Parasound 2100 Stereo Amplifier for two channel music. Parasound is a great name with a solid reputation.

So - - your speaker selection is critical but so is looking towards the future if you truly want to integrate "Home Theater" with a two channel system.

Good luck and have fun! This is what it's all about.

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Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
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post #22 of 71 Old 07-12-2014, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcloud View Post
In the case of Emotiva I can tell you no one is getting rich,
why?

mis-management you think? or is their objective to not optimize profit?


Quote:
they make money, but they aren't making what I think they would for the volume they do

how so?

Quote:
, so that leads me to believe lower profits, they do a lot of production out of the US = lower over head, they sell direct = less hands in the pot, they are family run = less corporate costs, ect , ect, ect...
well then, why are they not making money?

I honestly can't follow this but I do agree with much of your post.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #23 of 71 Old 07-12-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
why?

mis-management you think? or is their objective to not optimize profit?





how so?



well then, why are they not making money?

I honestly can't follow this but I do agree with much of your post.
I don't think it is mismanagement, I think it is a lot of reinvesting, although I think they should concentrate on amplifiers and maybe dabble in preamps and processors, but leave the complex video pro's to the companies like denon, if anything just get denon to make you a unit and use your chassis and packaging... besides that the company seems to run well... But where other companies are making $4000-$15000+ per amplifier emo cant profit like that because their most expensive amplifier is only a couple thousand dollars shipped {at 120 lbs} and their average product price is much much lower...

Try them out next time you are in the market for a product they sell, its hard to be disapointed with them...
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post #24 of 71 Old 07-13-2014, 08:42 AM
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Not sure why many of these threads asking for help turn into a debate on electronics, it's really not helpful to the OP.

I would be cautious about Focal speakers, which can be forward sounding, and Emotiva amps, which tend to have a brightish house sound. I had an XPA-3, same as the XPA-5 but 2 less channels, and I got sibilance with my Paradigm sigs(also beryllium tweeter), which also can be forward sounding. I'd ask the dealer to demo amps with brighter/warmer characteristics and music tracks you are very familiar with to get an idea. Parasound amps are a good middle of the road sounding amp, the Halo A21 at 2500 is very well regarded. But the dealer with the Focals should hopefully have some other options besides the Devialet.

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post #25 of 71 Old 07-13-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I would be cautious about Focal speakers, which can be forward sounding, and Emotiva amps, which tend to have a brightish house sound. I had an XPA-3, same as the XPA-5 but 2 less channels, and I got sibilance with my Paradigm sigs(also beryllium tweeter), which also can be forward sounding. I'd ask the dealer to demo amps with brighter/warmer characteristics and music tracks you are very familiar with to get an idea. Parasound amps are a good middle of the road sounding amp, the Halo A21 at 2500 is very well regarded. But the dealer with the Focals should hopefully have some other options besides the Devialet.
where on earth did you come up with that? (Focal forward)

and what the heck is a brightish house sound coming from a SS amp?

so you want him to demo different amps for sound? I hope you mean tube because other than that, again I have no clue what you are talking about.

I am not shocked you got hissing from an Emotiva amp as i have serious concerns about their qc.

yeah' i'd agree. Many of THESE posts are not helpful.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #26 of 71 Old 07-13-2014, 05:22 PM
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I am not shocked you got hissing from an Emotiva amp as i have serious concerns about their qc.
The best way is for you to test these Emo amps with your speakers at your house to validate your concerns. All Emo products have 30-day risk free money back guaranty. If you are not satisfied just return them, shipping is paid as well. Plus they have 5 year warranty. That says a lot about the quality when a manufacturer is willing to support their products that long. If your are a techie type and can understand AP test data, Emo publishes them on their website too. A lot of big name brands don't so I would be more concern with those high priced brands. They're customer service is second to none. Thus, they have lots of loyal and satisfied customers. So really all your concerns can easily be validated if you are willing to make an effort.

Don't know why imcloud thinks they're not making money. Emotiva is a private company and therefore don't publish their financial statements. I don't know where he's getting his information. However they just renovated their offices and expanded this year their facility to move production from China to Tennesee. That cost money. Their key employees have been with them for a long time. So again if they're not making money they will not be able to keep these smart guys. They also keep bringing out new products to market. Which means they have to keep adding personnel, facilities, and inventory of parts. A company not making money would not be able to do this.

They are able to keep their prices low because of their business model - direct online selling. No dealers that will add margins on the product but add no value and they don't spend on extravagant marketing ads but live through word of mouth.

I have their phono stage, preamp, DAC, and power amp, even their interconnect cables. Never had a problem with any of them and all my friends that heard my system went away impressed.

Sources ---> Clearaudio Concept TT, Onkyo CDP, MacBook Pro/Audirvana
Pre/DAC & Power Amp ---> Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Stage, Emotiva Stealth DC-1 Pre/DAC, Emotiva XPA-1L Monos
Speaker ---> Dynaudio Excite X34
Cable ---> Audioquest Type 8 Speaker Cable, Emotiva Interconnect Cables
Headphone ----> Onkyo ES-CTI300 (SS)
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post #27 of 71 Old 07-13-2014, 09:21 PM
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Hold up there dac, they've always offered the 30 day trial, but you have to pay to send the amp back. And a 50+ pound box doesn't ship cheaply. You could be out 70-80 bucks if you want to send it back. Even if it's for warranty service you might pay one way, so its not exactly a trial without strings.

On the test data, notice that their amps are measured at .1% to reach their rated power. That's right, the amp is already climbing the distortion curve, while other brands can hit their power rating while the distortion is still flat lining. I could go on, but the point is they cut corners to bring the products to market at such low prices, and that is fine. But they are not the equal of even Outlaw Audio amps. And their customer service is definitely second to none, some of their processors have had people talking law suits. Look to Oppo or Parasound for the best customer service. Parasound's president answers many customer's emails and phone calls personally.
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post #28 of 71 Old 07-14-2014, 07:37 AM
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On the test data, notice that their amps are measured at .1% to reach their rated power. That's right, the amp is already climbing the distortion curve, while other brands can hit their power rating while the distortion is still flat lining. I could go on, but the point is they cut corners to bring the products to market at such low prices, and that is fine. But they are not the equal of even Outlaw Audio amps. And their customer service is definitely second to none, some of their processors have had people talking law suits. Look to Oppo or Parasound for the best customer service. Parasound's president answers many customer's emails and phone calls personally.
i 'get' that folks here don't understand the basics of business, why would they if they are not involved in it but i think we should all know that you get what you pay for.

to think emotive is not interested in maximizing profits or can mysteriously eliminate production costs is very naive. quality control is a hallmark of revered companies and let me tell you, it ain't cheap.

and i'll tell those folks here another thing, these id companies would love to be main stream. they become direct marketing companies because there is no demand for their products in the mass market. it takes major investment and brilliant marketing, not to mention they would need to differentiate themselves from existing brands to break into the big leagues.

posters here, generally speaking, have no clue.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #29 of 71 Old 07-14-2014, 12:54 PM
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Hold up there dac, they've always offered the 30 day trial, but you have to pay to send the amp back. And a 50+ pound box doesn't ship cheaply. You could be out 70-80 bucks if you want to send it back. Even if it's for warranty service you might pay one way, so its not exactly a trial without strings.

On the test data, notice that their amps are measured at .1% to reach their rated power. That's right, the amp is already climbing the distortion curve, while other brands can hit their power rating while the distortion is still flat lining. I could go on, but the point is they cut corners to bring the products to market at such low prices, and that is fine. But they are not the equal of even Outlaw Audio amps. And their customer service is definitely second to none, some of their processors have had people talking law suits. Look to Oppo or Parasound for the best customer service. Parasound's president answers many customer's emails and phone calls personally.
Ok, I checked with Emotiva this morning about this return shipping and you're right, my bad. I've never returned a product but, I did have a warranty replacement last year where the return shipping was paid for. So, I assumed this is the policy for everything returned to them. I guess it makes sense, because if this return shipping is always free, then it will be subject to abuse and will be returned for all sorts of frivolous reasons.

Regarding the test data, you're making this (.1%) sound as if this is bad amplifier design when in reality, and every expert agrees that even a 1.0% distortion is STILL a very good amplifier. Would you call a Pass Lab amplifier a bad sounding amplifier? No... in fact their one of the gold standards (imo). But check one of their amps the Xs300 a $85,000/pair 300w mono and you'll see that it is rated at 1.0% distortion at rated power. Or the Krell Solo 375 a $29,900/pair 375w mono and rated at <0.19% @20Khz on 8 ohm. I think Emotiva is in good company! Another accepted fact by experts is that below 1.0% or even the difference between 0.1% and 0.05% is already inaudible and are just use for marketing purposes. Let me quote here Nelson Pass of Passlabs -

"Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are excellent and helpful tools, but they make
lousy customers
." and,

"A simple survey of really successful audio amplifiers shows
that objective performance numbers by themselves are not that
important. For example, there is some level at which harmonic
distortion is subjectively intrusive – we could probably stipulate that
10% distortion is too much, and would probably accept that 1%
would be audible.

Conversely, we should accept that distortion becomes inaudible
below some arbitrary level. Is it at 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? We
actually don’t know, because there has to be a much larger context of
performance to which a single number only alludes.
"

Lastly, Emotiva is one of the few companies that provide more information about their products (even AP test data) than most say Outlaw. Not saying that Outlaw is bad... but wouldn't you trust a company that is more transparent than one that has very limited information?

Like I said, the best test is to hear them and even better if you can hear them in your own listening environment.

Sources ---> Clearaudio Concept TT, Onkyo CDP, MacBook Pro/Audirvana
Pre/DAC & Power Amp ---> Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Stage, Emotiva Stealth DC-1 Pre/DAC, Emotiva XPA-1L Monos
Speaker ---> Dynaudio Excite X34
Cable ---> Audioquest Type 8 Speaker Cable, Emotiva Interconnect Cables
Headphone ----> Onkyo ES-CTI300 (SS)
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post #30 of 71 Old 07-14-2014, 01:28 PM
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i 'get' that folks here don't understand the basics of business, why would they if they are not involved in it but i think we should all know that you get what you pay for.

to think emotive is not interested in maximizing profits or can mysteriously eliminate production costs is very naive. quality control is a hallmark of revered companies and let me tell you, it ain't cheap.

and i'll tell those folks here another thing, these id companies would love to be main stream. they become direct marketing companies because there is no demand for their products in the mass market. it takes major investment and brilliant marketing, not to mention they would need to differentiate themselves from existing brands to break into the big leagues.

posters here, generally speaking, have no clue.
Not sure if you are alluding to me as not knowing anything about business or naive. I think what is naive is not recognizing that there are different business models and the traditional brick and mortar is not the only way. In fact, a lot of brick and mortar companies have adopted an online model to avoid going the way of the dinosaurs. And there are a lot of successful online companies - Amazon & Dell (at least at the beginning) are perfect examples. It was a conscious decision by the owners of Emotiva from the get go and not because there was no demand for their products.

No one is saying Emotiva is not trying to maximize their profit (i think imcloud alluded to it but I disagree). All companies decide on a price point and profit target when they start a business or introduce a product or enter a market. Then this expectation is adjusted based on the market's reaction.

No one said they're eliminating production cost (where did you see that?). What I said is they eliminated the dealer or distribution network so customers can get "factory direct" prices. As a matter of fact, Emotiva just built a new factory at their headquarter in Tennessee and moving all production stateside.

They renovated their offices too and coming out with more products, which means hiring more people and ramping up on inventory of spare parts. They are doing multiple city roadshow this year as well. That cost money on airfare, hotel, venues or facilities. If they're not maximizing profits where do you think they're getting the money for all these? They're not a public company so the money are all coming from the owner's pocket.

What am I saying here, I'm saying a lot of your apprehension about this company and their products are not well founded.

Sources ---> Clearaudio Concept TT, Onkyo CDP, MacBook Pro/Audirvana
Pre/DAC & Power Amp ---> Emotiva XPS-1 Phono Stage, Emotiva Stealth DC-1 Pre/DAC, Emotiva XPA-1L Monos
Speaker ---> Dynaudio Excite X34
Cable ---> Audioquest Type 8 Speaker Cable, Emotiva Interconnect Cables
Headphone ----> Onkyo ES-CTI300 (SS)
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