Crossover Question - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 1 Post By 89grand
  • 1 Post By arnyk
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 08-09-2014, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Smile Crossover Question

I bought a Peachtree Audio Integrated Amp/DAC combo a couple of months ago to hookup to bookshelf speakers in my office and it sounds great. Except after doing research on how Subwoofers need to be crossed-over with the main speakers to get optimal sound quality, it made me realize that there is no Bass management or high-pass crossover settings on the Amp/DAC. Originally I didn't even think about this being an issue, as I figured adjusting the low-pass on the Sub is all I would need to do. Though of course the satellite speakers will not blend seamlessly with the Sub if they are not both splitting the frequencies. My main speakers roll off at about 85 Hertz and have the low-pass crossover on the Sub set to about 100 Hertz. To ensure that there is no gap in frequency.

Most of the time I don't hear the Sub, unless the main volume is on pretty loud. But there are parts in songs where I can clearly hear music coming from the Sub. Maybe it's normal because it's frequencies that the main speakers can't play but I've heard you still shouldn't hear noise coming from the sub at all if it is setup right. So I have considered getting a crossover to add to my Amp/DAC to see if it changes anything. The next problem is that my speakers are passive and only use high-level inputs. All crossovers I've looked at use Balanced Inputs and/or RCA in/outputs which will obviously not work unless there is some way to convert this? So I guess my main question is.. How can I hookup an active crossover to an Amp/DAC with passive speakers that can only connect with High-Level Inputs?

Last edited by AmatureAudioGuy; 08-09-2014 at 10:01 PM.
AmatureAudioGuy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 08-10-2014, 11:36 AM
Senior Member
 
89grand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 87
I don't think the answer lies in a high pass crossover. I think the subs crossover needs to be adjusted, maybe to a little lower frequency of say 80hz, and is probably a few db too hot. Try lowering the volume just a bit.
jb82 likes this.
89grand is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 08-10-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Thanks for your input. I had just heard some people claim that if the main speakers try to play a frequency that the sub is trying to play at the same time, that they will cancel eachother out and it won't sound right. Now that I have moved the sub into the corner of the room a few feet from the main speakers, it sounds much better and more like sound is coming from the speakers. Could also be that the 10x10 room is too small to handle any significant volume. I don't have the gain set that high on the sub and the low-pass is set correctly. Maybe it just comes more down to finding the perfect placement of the sub and the right phase settings.
AmatureAudioGuy is offline  
post #4 of 13 Old 08-11-2014, 04:04 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
arnyk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 14,387
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmatureAudioGuy View Post
Thanks for your input. I had just heard some people claim that if the main speakers try to play a frequency that the sub is trying to play at the same time, that they will cancel eachother out and it won't sound right.
That can definitely happen.

Quote:
Now that I have moved the sub into the corner of the room a few feet from the main speakers, it sounds much better and more like sound is coming from the speakers. Could also be that the 10x10 room is too small to handle any significant volume.
Depends on the acoustics of that room. Rooms have a property called "Cabin gain" that boosts the bass at frequencies that increase with decreases in the size of the room. This is far more apparent if the room is acoustically live and has a lot of echos.

Quote:
I don't have the gain set that high on the sub and the low-pass is set correctly. Maybe it just comes more down to finding the perfect placement of the sub and the right phase settings.
Sooner or later you might expect to get pushed into something with good bass management by your quest for better sound. If you are using the RCA jack input to your subwoofer you can mitigate any excess bass with an equalizer such as a MiniDSP (about $100)
jb82 likes this.
arnyk is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 08-11-2014, 08:50 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sivadselim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: CO
Posts: 16,085
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked: 69
If it sounds good to you, and you are not having any problems achieving the volumes you prefer, there is no reason to high-pass your speakers, IMO. You simply need to adjust the sub's low-pass to the speaker's in-room low-end performance. You can't just arbitrarily adjust this and call it quits. The best setting needs to be determined empirically; if not with measurements, then by ear (and/or preference). And of course you have the sub's level to adjust, too.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
sivadselim is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 08-11-2014, 08:58 PM
Member
 
jb82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmatureAudioGuy View Post
Thanks for your input. I had just heard some people claim that if the main speakers try to play a frequency that the sub is trying to play at the same time, that they will cancel eachother out and it won't sound right. Now that I have moved the sub into the corner of the room a few feet from the main speakers, it sounds much better and more like sound is coming from the speakers. Could also be that the 10x10 room is too small to handle any significant volume. I don't have the gain set that high on the sub and the low-pass is set correctly. Maybe it just comes more down to finding the perfect placement of the sub and the right phase settings.
I am not 100% sure if I remember correctly but you can fix the problem of main speakers and sub playing same frequencies by turning on the phase switch to 180 degrees. Thats if your sub has the option.
I would do like the guy above mentioned also and lower the crossover, why not right at you mains roll off. I dont like not having a high pass for the mains bc of distortion at higher volume levels but your in a office so I suppose you dont JAM there.
I read somewhere that if you place the sub in a corner you want it 7 in. away from both walls, getting a sub in the best place in a room is a pain imo. Like Arny said you need something to do corrections on the bass from a sub to get it right, I had a Denon that had Audyssey room correction but it was just the mid level version and just set the level of the sub. I think the best version of Audyssey does bass correction with the frequencies on the sub now.
Looks like nobody has an answer for your main question, keep researching ; )

Last edited by jb82; 08-11-2014 at 09:27 PM.
jb82 is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 08-11-2014, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82 View Post
I am not 100% sure if I remember correctly but you can fix the problem of main speakers and sub playing same frequencies by turning on the phase switch to 180 degrees. Thats if your sub has the option.
I would do like the guy above mentioned also and lower the crossover, why not right at you mains roll off. I dont like not having a high pass for the mains bc of distortion at higher volume levels but your in a office so I suppose you dont JAM there.
I read somewhere that if you place the sub in a corner you want it 7 in. away from both walls, getting a sub in the best place in a room is a pain imo. Like Arny said you need something to do corrections on the bass from a sub to get it right, I had a Denon that had Audyssey room correction but it was just the mid level version and just set the level of the sub. I think the best version of Audyssey does bass correction with the frequencies on the sub now.
Looks like nobody has an answer for your main question, keep researching ; )
Yes trying to come up with the perfect office setup has been a bit of a nightmare. No matter how much I learned about speakers, subwoofers, amplifiers, DACs before purchasing... I still end up making some bad decisions. I've returned almost all the equipment I originally bought except for the speakers. I'd seen good receivers with Bass management options but none of them had USB DAC functionality. I didn't want the office to look like an entertainment center.

I actually do JAM in the office, as it is my main source of everything entertainment. I just can't get too crazy, given size limits. But most of the time it's at a modest volume. The sub has a Phase dial and have it set where bass sounds the strongest. Everything is pretty good now but you know how it can always be better.
AmatureAudioGuy is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Now that I looked at it closer. The only time I really notice sound from the Sub is when there are low 50 Hertz bass hits in songs like Wild Thing. Lower than where I crossover at around 80-100 Hz. During most other songs you can't tell the sub is really there. Maybe this is normal since it's lower than the main speakers can go?
AmatureAudioGuy is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 09:02 AM
Senior Member
 
89grand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmatureAudioGuy View Post
Now that I looked at it closer. The only time I really notice sound from the Sub is when there are low 50 Hertz bass hits in songs like Wild Thing. Lower than where I crossover at around 80-100 Hz. During most other songs you can't tell the sub is really there. Maybe this is normal since it's lower than the main speakers can go?
What you are most likely experiencing is the rooms effect on the bass. Every room will cause peaks and dips in the bass response from around 200hz and lower. In your case, your room is probably exciting certain frequencies, giving them an unnaturally high boost while having dips at others.

Everyone has this problem to varying degrees, and the only solution is room eq. My main listening room was real bad, boosting 32hz by a whopping 32db, while I had a suck out at 60hz. I smoothed it dramatically with a Minidsp, a measurement mic and REW. That was a $200 investment, but well worth it in my opinion. If you have a computer only based audio system, there is a free eq called Equalizer APO, but you'll still need a measurement mic, and REW which is free. I use it for my computer room, and it works well. The $70 I paid for the mic has already been worth it, as I've eq'ed two systems using it, and can use it again any time the system changes or the room get rearranged or whatever.
89grand is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
What you are most likely experiencing is the rooms effect on the bass. Every room will cause peaks and dips in the bass response from around 200hz and lower. In your case, your room is probably exciting certain frequencies, giving them an unnaturally high boost while having dips at others.

Everyone has this problem to varying degrees, and the only solution is room eq. My main listening room was real bad, boosting 32hz by a whopping 32db, while I had a suck out at 60hz. I smoothed it dramatically with a Minidsp, a measurement mic and REW. That was a $200 investment, but well worth it in my opinion. If you have a computer only based audio system, there is a free eq called Equalizer APO, but you'll still need a measurement mic, and REW which is free. I use it for my computer room, and it works well. The $70 I paid for the mic has already been worth it, as I've eq'ed two systems using it, and can use it again any time the system changes or the room get rearranged or whatever.
'Frequency Boosting' is exactly how I would describe it. At first I thought it was just the song overemphasizing the bass but it just sounds weird. At some points of songs my ears feel an unpleasant pressure in them and that can't be right.

Interesting that I planned on getting a good Stereo Microphone for recording Music anyway. I imagine that would work for what your talking about. Thanks, I think this is my issue.
AmatureAudioGuy is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 12:22 PM
Senior Member
 
89grand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 87
You would want a different type of mic to use for in room frequency measurements. I use the Umik-1 from Minidsp. It's USB powered, so no need for a separate mic preamp.

I guess it's $75 not $70.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acou...urement/umik-1
89grand is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 02:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RayDunzl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,399
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 477 Post(s)
Liked: 671
Quote:
Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
You would want a different type of mic to use for in room frequency measurements. I use the Umik-1 from Minidsp. It's USB powered, so no need for a separate mic preamp.

I guess it's $75 not $70.

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acou...urement/umik-1
They ship from Hong Kong.

$70 if purchased with one of the miniDSP devices, plus shipping, probably $20.

$75 if purchased alone, plus $20 shipping (in my case).

It took about 48 hours from the time it leaves their place to get to me. The UMIK was delivered to me in two days (fast!), my OpenDRC-DI didn't ship for six days, arriving on the eighth day, including a weekend. They were separate orders, a week apart. I was indecisive.

I'll be back later...


links::: 1.5RQ > digits > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest > Sweetspot
RayDunzl is online now  
post #13 of 13 Old 08-12-2014, 02:54 PM
Senior Member
 
89grand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 388
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 171 Post(s)
Liked: 87
Oh yeah, that's where I got the $70 from, as I ordered it along with a Minidsp 2x4.
89grand is offline  
Reply 2-Channel Audio

Tags
crossover amp dac subwoofer

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off