Vinyl SQ - AVS Forum
2-Channel Audio > Vinyl SQ
jb82's Avatar jb82 02:03 PM 08-10-2014
I will get hell for this post but oh well. If you have a good pair of audiophile headphones check out HiFisquarepants channel on youtube and listen to his vinyl rips. Even though there is limitations of youtube and you are hearing the vinyl in digital it still sounds fantastic.
I have the original correct masters of the old Michael Jackson cd's and his youtube vinyl rips have more detail/resolution. Dynamics are about the same maybe a little better on cd.
I am convinced that vinyl is somewhere around the same as 96khz digital recordings. My next purchase will be a DAC/headphone amp, probably the Audio-GD NFB 11.32. Besides whether the masters where done justice or not on the cd's I will put the nail in the coffin after I hear dedicated DAC with my cd's that have high dynamic range. I'm guessing the DAC will pull more detail out of the cd's but the resolution of vinyl will not be there all of a sudden.

FMW's Avatar FMW 04:59 AM 08-11-2014
No question that vinyl is a high fidelity medium but you are dead wrong about it having more "resolution" than digital. In fact it has less. It also has less dynamic range and a lot more noise. Yes a good digital dupe of a vinyl record should sound exactly like the record.


If you like vinyl, that's fine. It is a credit to the music reproduction industry that it was able to get the analog medium sounding as good as it did. But it can't compete with digital. Sorry.
jb82's Avatar jb82 09:03 AM 08-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
No question that vinyl is a high fidelity medium but you are dead wrong about it having more "resolution" than digital. In fact it has less. It also has less dynamic range and a lot more noise. Yes a good digital dupe of a vinyl record should sound exactly like the record.


If you like vinyl, that's fine. It is a credit to the music reproduction industry that it was able to get the analog medium sounding as good as it did. But it can't compete with digital. Sorry.
I am talking about cd digital, the redbook standard. Where are all the great sounding cd's then? sure there are some nice jazz and classical but too my ears it falls short like how mp3's take out the information that is hard for you to hear in the first place on cd's, same thing with vinyl to cd's imo.
Sure if they gave us properly mastered 96khz digital music that would be the way to go but they hardly ever do it right and scam people.
glangford's Avatar glangford 09:52 AM 08-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
No question that vinyl is a high fidelity medium but you are dead wrong about it having more "resolution" than digital. In fact it has less. It also has less dynamic range and a lot more noise. Yes a good digital dupe of a vinyl record should sound exactly like the record.


If you like vinyl, that's fine. It is a credit to the music reproduction industry that it was able to get the analog medium sounding as good as it did. But it can't compete with digital. Sorry.
Agree, I'd prefer a 44/16 digital to vinyl anyday.
glangford's Avatar glangford 09:58 AM 08-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82 View Post
I am talking about cd digital, the redbook standard. Where are all the great sounding cd's then?
There are many great sounding CDs. Check out the DR database, and Steve Hoffman music forums for references to well mastered CDs. CD has better DR and much less noise than vinyl. I like 96/24, but mostly because they are usually better mastered than the CD with better DR. That doesn't stop me from buying a good 44/16 cd of something I like and want.
FMW's Avatar FMW 10:18 AM 08-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82 View Post
I am talking about cd digital, the redbook standard. Where are all the great sounding cd's then? sure there are some nice jazz and classical but too my ears it falls short like how mp3's take out the information that is hard for you to hear in the first place on cd's, same thing with vinyl to cd's imo.
Sure if they gave us properly mastered 96khz digital music that would be the way to go but they hardly ever do it right and scam people.
Lot of audiophile nonsense has invaded your attitudes about CD's. Strange as it may seem to you, red book is all you need. Adding more bandwidth or more data doesn't make them sound any better. The producers say it does and audiophiles believe it. But it doesn't. Bias controlled listening tests have taught us that lesson. A properly made MP3 doesn't sound worse either. You get degraded sound not because of the compression but because of the amount of compression. High bit rate MP3's are indistinguishable from red book.

A properly made digital dupe of a vinyl record will sound exactly like the original record. Same noise, same level compression, same everything. I've made thousands of digital dupes of vinyl records. There is never a need to actually play one of my records.

If you want to play vinyl records, go right ahead. But if you want one of us who has done bias controlled listening tests to agree that the records will sound better than CD's then you've hit a brick wall.
jb82's Avatar jb82 06:06 PM 08-11-2014
I agree about the DR being better on digital, the pops/clicks do not bother me since their not so audible during the music. I have heard well mastered cd's and their vinyl versions. I still have not heard a cd that has the detail that I hear on its vinyl version. The thing about science is that its always changing, thats for your redbook standard thoughts.
I like both mediums but so far I am convinced that vinyl has more detail/resolution than the redbook standard, and the cd's have the edge on DR I agree.
I know adding more bandwidth alone doesn't make it better, it would need a remaster to take advantage. I am not clueless about this subject just stating my findings so far which could change, but I have to hear it first. Believe it or not I do have some humility ; )
FMW's Avatar FMW 09:22 AM 08-12-2014
I can't debate your beliefs and preferences. I can only deal with facts. So I'll leave you to those preferences. Happy listening.
Michael Sargent's Avatar Michael Sargent 01:58 PM 08-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82 View Post
The thing about science is that its always changing, thats for your redbook standard thoughts.

Science has consistently believed and demonstrated that Redbook CD's sound better than vinyl in all respects. No scientist has ever contradicted that.


Marketing managers for record labels, who see gullible millenials as a new source of revenue, on the other hand are more than willing to claim that vinyl is superior to CD to sell LP's to people who have never heard them, and old-timers who were happy to get rid of vinyl but have forgotten why.


Mike
DaverJ's Avatar DaverJ 02:02 PM 08-12-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
Marketing managers for record labels, who see gullible millenials as a new source of revenue, on the other hand are more than willing to claim that vinyl is superior to CD to sell LP's to people who have never heard them, and old-timers who were happy to get rid of vinyl but have forgotten why.
It's also possible some people simply prefer they way analog sounds.
RayDunzl's Avatar RayDunzl 03:11 PM 08-12-2014
It's been so long since I've heard an LP... I don't even know what they "sound" like any more.

1981 was the last time they were a part of the routine, and not mine, at a friend's place, and he acquired a CD player as soon as he could. His brother worked at Technics at the time.

Then I was on the road, working, for a long time. CD was firmly entrenched by the time I set up a system, about 1992.

I do have plenty of good musical memories from the vinyl days/daze, though, 60's and 70's.

I wonder how much microphony - feedback - is present in the playback, particularly at higher volume settings. I might have to experiment a little with that, digitally, of course.
arnyk's Avatar arnyk 07:04 AM 08-13-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82 View Post
I agree about the DR being better on digital, the pops/clicks do not bother me since their not so audible during the music. I have heard well mastered cd's and their vinyl versions. I still have not heard a cd that has the detail that I hear on its vinyl version.
The extra details that many perceive could be rooted in well known and inherent audible technical flaws of vinyl. For example the several forms of audible nonlinear distortion can be perceived as brightness and detail. There is often an amplitude modulation due to the cartridge coping with eccentricity and warps. The build up of audible nonlinear distortion during loud passages and near the end of the discs due to the reduced radius of the inner grooves can be perceived as "more dynamic", and so on.

Quote:
The thing about science is that its always changing, thats for your redbook standard thoughts.
Redbook is now mature well-understood technology, and the science related to it is not going to change much any more. The LP is even older and better understood technology. The key understanding about vinyl was that it would be impractical to improve its performance significantly, and so the industry pulled up their stakes and moved to digital.

Quote:
I like both mediums but so far I am convinced that vinyl has more detail/resolution than the redbook standard, and the cd's have the edge on DR I agree.
As a tiny noisy minority seem to define resolution, which encompasses a lot of audible noise and distortion, the LP is well ahead and is unlikely to be eclipsed.

Quote:
I know adding more bandwidth alone doesn't make it better, it would need a remaster to take advantage. I am not clueless about this subject just stating my findings so far which could change, but I have to hear it first. Believe it or not I do have some humility ; )

It takes more humility than I can muster to sit though all the of audible noise and distortion that is inherent in vinyl, to listen to it unless the music on the spinning black disk is unavailable any other way.
Greenwood Ave's Avatar Greenwood Ave 10:30 AM 08-13-2014
I think the reason vinyl is making a limitted comeback amongst some popluations is primarily due to aesthetics. Vinyl is aesthetically beautiful in a way that CDs (or hard drives) just aren't. People my age who grew up on cassettes and CDs (or the youngers generations who grew up on hard drives) are discovering the aesthetic beauty of the medium, and this influences how the music is perceived. So the appeal is primarily psychological, though I also think the inceased distortion could add something to some kinds of music for some people.

Vinyl is beautiful, and i love way it looks too. This is why I have framed Blue Note records all over my living room (love that Reid Miles cover art). However, I enjoy accuracy more, which is why I listen exclusively to CDs. I would saying getting a little into the math behind the Redbook standard really increased my appreciation for this format

To me, the music is the most important thing. And if spending money on beautiful "audiophile" 220 gram vinyl rereleases helps some people to get into quality music, then I think that's just fine. However, I wouldn't recommend deluding oneself into thinking you are not paying more money for a product that isn't objectively inferior in a variety of ways.
jb82's Avatar jb82 05:42 PM 09-11-2014
Ok I changed my mind, after getting my own setup I dont see how anyone could think vinyl is superior. I hear all kind of new noises all the time and channel balance issues. I am still going to try a couple more things before I totally give up on vinyl but it looks like I may be finding out the hard way that digital sounds better. Used HD 558 headphones for comparisons of same albums known to be the better versions in each format. I wish I had bought a DAC/headphone amp instead of TT.
SL-1800mk2 with AT440MLa cartridge
Knucklehead90's Avatar Knucklehead90 10:12 PM 09-11-2014
I have a friend that insists vinyl sounds better to him than CDs. I've learned not to argue with him about dynamic range etc - after all he wears a pair of $5000 hearing aids.

Go figure.

I do have some vinyl - and an old Phillips 312 turntable with a Shure 97e cart. I spin up a disc or two a few times a week. About all I play is junk store stuff - the old Reader's Digest releases sound pretty good. Most of them are from the early/mid 60's into the late 70's and probably aren't found anywhere else on CD. Funny thing - most of these LP's are like new. Must have been bought on the LP of The Month Club plan. Kind of like the Book of The Month Club only for LP's. Usually 6-12 LP's in each box. I like the old music.
Dude111's Avatar Dude111 10:22 PM 09-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jb82
I will get hell for this post but oh well.
 
You shouldnt get hell for it buddy!!

Just as long as people know THIS IS NOT ANALOG,it will be as good as it can be right? (That youtube channel)
jb82's Avatar jb82 11:04 PM 09-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
 
You shouldnt get hell for it buddy!!

Just as long as people know THIS IS NOT ANALOG,it will be as good as it can be right? (That youtube channel)
I heard that YT goes up to 300 and somethin kbs AAC. Those youtube vinyl rips sound just as good as cd to me but I am no where near that level of SQ. I also received a lot of 16bit 96khz vinyl rips from a guy in his early 20's that put together his system from yard sales and goodwill on a small budget and his where really good also. I dont know maybe I will get my TT sorted out and it will sound comparable but I am scared to spend anymore money on it and just keep running into problems.
jb82's Avatar jb82 11:10 PM 09-11-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
I have a friend that insists vinyl sounds better to him than CDs. I've learned not to argue with him about dynamic range etc - after all he wears a pair of $5000 hearing aids.

Go figure.

I do have some vinyl - and an old Phillips 312 turntable with a Shure 97e cart. I spin up a disc or two a few times a week. About all I play is junk store stuff - the old Reader's Digest releases sound pretty good. Most of them are from the early/mid 60's into the late 70's and probably aren't found anywhere else on CD. Funny thing - most of these LP's are like new. Must have been bought on the LP of The Month Club plan. Kind of like the Book of The Month Club only for LP's. Usually 6-12 LP's in each box. I like the old music.
My 95 year old grandmother got these new $5000 hearing aids and she was complaining about things like the AC fan being too loud that where normal to hear, but I guess when you have not heard what normal sounds like for 30 years its irritating. I noticed she turned down the tv to a level that I was comfortable at and she could also hear the microwave and said it was too loud. I tried to tell her it was normal and she was hearing closer to what I perceive but she is stubborn.
So maybe your friend can hear better than you think lol who knows
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