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post #61 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 11:31 AM
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I still play some of my several hundred vinyl records and my turntable is now in my main ht system (used to have it in a dedicated, i.e. old, 2-ch system setup) so I can do it in the comfort of my living room; my modern avr has a phono stage. I do it for nostalgia and the fact I have some records only on vinyl but it isn't about sound quality. I switched to CD a long time ago for the lack of the rice krispies sounds, something that will always be with vinyl (even on that first play). The ritual of cleaning etc is somewhat a pain yet comforting at the same time due to that nostalgia (I've got my whole discwasher setup still, including a non-functioning zerostat gun), I'll even roll one up occasionally with the album cover for that same nostalgia . Heck I don't even queue up single CDs very often as I've got most of them in my computer/ipod/phone and more often than not will just play all my Pandora stations in mix mode.

I couldn't even imagine wanting to get into vinyl as a new venture, too expensive and time consuming and bulky....even for some recordings where the mastering was very good for the vinyl release. Vinyl is just limited, always has been and always will be. I've lugged my vinyl around the last several household moves, which is a royal pain. I can carry my larger collection of cds (in binders, no jewel boxes) in one box by myself, significantly more weight and space involved with vinyl. The larger artwork and lyrics are nicer with vinyl, though....
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post #62 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
The discussion is already pretty long, so I'm not sure if I can really add anything.

First - Should you get into vinyl? I don't know - should you?

Meaning as a novelty, it is pretty expensive. If you fully intend to collect over 100 albums, then it might be worth getting a decent entry level turntable, but entry level means about $400. If you fully intend to collect over 300 albums, then perhaps you can invest in a better turntable. Perhaps up to $1000. Equally if you plan on having 500 or more, then we can consider +$1000 turntables.

How does that fit with the equipment you have now? If you currently have a $500 stereo, or God forbid, a $500 surround sound system, then an additional $400 is something of a waste.

So, you need to consider this from two perspectives. One, how deeply do you plan to get into this vinyl 'thing'? If it is a novelty, then it is an expensive novelty. If you think you are really interested, then are you $400 interested?

Next, what system do you have now? Both the depth to which you will explore vinyl, and a turntable in reasonable proportion to the depth, and to the value of your other equipment, points to the direction you should explore.

As to whether vinyl is better than CD? That is the wrong question. The real question is, is the CONTENT on vinyl better than the CONTENT on CD?

Other have already referenced the Loudness War, in which some genius (sarcasm) at the record companies decided that Louder is Better. Of course, it is not actually louder, it is just the perception of louder. So, modern content is overly compressed, killing the Dynamic Range and subtlety of the music.

The advantage of CD is that it has immense Dynamic Range, but what good is it, if it is all compressed out.

Vinyl may not have the same Dynamic Range, but it still sound silky sweet. Now as someone else mentioned, if a vinyl album is just a CD copied on to vinyl, then there is nothing to gain. But, commonly, vinyl is mixed differently, and has far less compression; not no compression, just far less. Typically vinyl is produced with a different attitude, and because production runs are so much smaller, they get little interference from the corporate executives.

Let me illustrate this by another example to show that the real question involved the content, not the medium. There is a video on YouTube related to the over compression of modern music. The person found a newly pressed CD of a CD he already had (sorry don't remember the details) . He bought it out of curiosity to compare them to see if it had change. Indeed it had. The modern version was horribly compressed compared to the original version. Which lead him to make a video showing the difference between the two. You can see the music waveform for both pieces of music, and you can clearly see the compression and lack of Dynamic Range in the modern version.

Right now as I type, I'm listening to a Django Reinhardt - Solos/Duets/Trios - Volume 2 on vinyl, and it is a delight - clean, clear, crisp, quiet. Given that these recordings were, at best, laid down in the 50's, it really sound good. Given that this album is out of print in vinyl, I was curious if I could buy it on CD. So, I searched Amazon, and sure enough it is available. But I can't help wondering how badly they screwed it up? I'm sure for convenient casual listening, it would be fine, but the vinyl has subtleties that I can't describe.

In another case, I have Super Session (Bloomfield, Cooper, Stills) on vinyl. This was a used album I picked up somewhere, and it is not in real good shape; a lot of surface noise from years of abuse (not by me). Still even with all the noise, this is a stunning and engaging album. I also have a new CD of the same album, but the CD is dull and unengaging. When I play it, I'm hardly aware that I'm even listening to it. But the album, bad as it is, grabs and holds your attention, even when you have it playing in the back ground.

So, back to Django, do I or don't I buy the CD? I would like to but with any CD I consider, there is always the worry that they have screwed it up. That they have compressed all the Dynamics out of it. The Record Labels wonder why CD sales are down. Given how bad CD sound, it is no wonder no one is buying them.

CD's do have the potential to sound very good, but just because they have the potential, doesn't mean that potential is delivered to you the consumer. The same with vinyl, it can sound breath taking, assuming the music hasn't been compromised by humans in a misguided attempt to make it better.

The Loudness Wars have gotten so bad, in the UK, they are thinking of passing a law that says, all digital music will have to have a bit of meta-data in it indicating the relative loudness. If it is recorded really hot (loud), the the player will automatically bring it down and level match it to a common standard. Now, this in no way effects whether you can turn the volume control up or down. The purpose of excessive compression is so that when the music switches between someone else's song and one of your songs, your song will appear to be louder. But with everyone doing the same thing, they just push louder and louder, with less and less Dynamic Range in essence flattening the music down to nothing. With meta-data equalization scheme, all music will be the same level, and the incentive is lost to keep compressing the music to make it seem louder. With the incentive lost, the hope is that they will start mixing music for quality rather than loudness.

So, it gets down to attitude, the attitude guiding the mix of what will later be pressed on to a given medium. Highly commercial music is far more likely to suffer from compression whether on vinyl or CD. Music like jazz and classical, because their audience demands high quality sound, are less likely to be overly compressed. Older CDs and older vinyl are less likely to be compressed regardless of genre.

So, in the modern world, how good an given content will sound will depend more on how the content is put on the medium far more than the medium itself.

JVC XRCD are proof that CD done right can sound very very good. JVC established some parameters by which common Red Book CD's could sound its best. Unfortunately, the method never caught on, mostly because Record Companies take a "good enough" attitude. Does this music sound good? No, but it sounds "good enough". Unfortunately, "good enough" really IS NOT good enough for people who truly like to listen to music. For 14 year old girls drooling over teen heart throbs, "good enough" might be good enough, and that does represent a huge segment of the buying market. But for people who truly love music and strive to hear it at is best, "good enough" is far far far far from good enough.

So, should you get into vinyl? How much time and money do you have to spend? As I said before, if you aren't determined to have at least 100 albums, then there is little point.

Steve/bluewizard
Nice post.

I wouldn't get into vinyl for sound quality alone or you may be dissapointed. Modern digital players are very good and affordable. Turntables can sound anywhere from total garbage to very impressive and cost lots more to hear the potential compared to modern digital. Lots of things can degrade vinyl sound quality. Cartridge quality and set-up, turntable and tonearm build quality, phono stage quality, and turntable isolation issues.

If you want a new hobby vinyl playback can be interesting and frustrating also. Lots to learn about cartridge set-up and fine tuning etc.

I have samples of LP records that sound better than my digital samples and visa-versa. But a cheap entry level turntable set-up will be disappointing sound quality wise anyway. IMO
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post #63 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hogger129 View Post
I can get a CD for less money, that sounds better than a record, and make my own lossy versions.
I could do that also and do for most purchases. Buy physical media on Amazon now they auto rip it for you.

For favourite bands the Vinyl is nice to have. And has value. Though not much. For everything else convenience wins. To the point that I now buy leas and listen on Rhapsody.
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post #64 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad I started such an engaging thread lol. I think where my heads at now, I'm gonna keep an eye on estate sales, and see if I can get a decent turn table for $50 or under. I'm in no rush, and I've already found lots of impressive digital audio. SACDs are a nice resource, I got the 1st three Black Sabbath albums in SACD and they sound incredible! Dark Side of the Moon on SACD is on the way. Also just listened to Metallica's Black Album on DVD-A and it sounded great. I've got plenty to keep me busy for the moment.


I forgot I do have one album on Vinyl, Ynwie Malmsteen's Rising Force, singed by Yngwie.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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post #65 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
I can get a new release on vinyl that sounds better than the overly-compressed CD. Better dynamics, fuller sound. (Not every CD, but many. Particularly true of the majority of CDs released from the mid 90's to within the past couple years. But even a lot of new releases suffer from dynamic compression.)

Case in point: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/li...bum=Sound+city

I've heard both, and the vinyl release is noticeably better.
The measurement on Dr loudness don't work on vinyl.
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post #66 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
Sorry, but no. The highest quality vinyl ever produced is being produced right now. The vinyl is much thicker and higher quality than anything produced 15+ years ago.
The ability to create high quality masters and stampers is gone. I don't want to get into here but the last machines capable of creating discs like what Shefield Labs and Mobile Fidelity did in the "Golden Age" of vinyl is finished. The machinery was deliberately destroyed.

Ever here the story of "virgin vinyl" by someone who was
in the LP manufacturing business in the 60's and 70's?
It's fascinating.

Last edited by wilcal; 08-23-2014 at 03:10 PM.
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post #67 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
The ability to create high quality masters and stampers is gone. I don't want to get into here but the last machines capable of creating discs like what Shefield Labs and Mobile Fidelity did in the "Golden Age" of vinyl is finished. The machinery was deliberately destroyed.

Ever here the story of "virgin vinyl" by someone who was
in the LP manufacturing business in the 60's and 70's?
It's fascinating.
Well, the 180g discs coming out now are better than my old discs from the 70's and 80's, and some are pushing the boundaries (even if just for kicks), like the Lazaretto disc.

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post #68 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 06:34 PM
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Not trying to add fuel to any fires, but coincidentally, I just ran across an old interview with Rudy Van Gelder, and they touched on this subject:

What are your feelings on digital versus analog?

"The linear storage of digital information is idealized. It can be perfect. It can never be perfect in analog . . . The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium.
"

Last edited by Section 107; 08-23-2014 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Wrong interview date
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post #69 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
Well, the 18g discs coming out now are better than my old discs from the 70's and 80's, and some are pushing the boundaries (even if just for kicks), like the Lazaretto disc.
18g ! Jeez that's light. Any new pressing is better than the ones I've used for 35-45 years The newest I've got is a "180g" pressing of a Van Morrison....still doesn't overcome the inherent flaws in vinyl recording/playback.
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post #70 of 187 Old 08-23-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilcal View Post
The ability to create high quality masters and stampers is gone.... the last machines capable of creating discs like what Shefield Labs and Mobile Fidelity did in the "Golden Age" of vinyl is finished. The machinery was deliberately destroyed.

...
I'm not sure that's true. Old pressing plants might have sat idle for years, but they are now up and running and pressing new vinyl, typically on 180gram vinyl.

The vinyl is cut like a record, then that cutting is molded, the mold is metal plated, and that metal plate mold is used to press records. The molding and plating are easy enough, nothing unique about that. If you have the vinyl cutting lathe you are nearly there. Now all you need are the pressing machines and there are certainly enough of those around.

Search YouTube and you can find videos of once idle plants now up and running pressing new vinyl.

If these pressing plants didn't exist, then were is all the new vinyl coming from?

Steve/bluewizard
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post #71 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 12:35 AM
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Interesting but typical discussion on the digital vs. analog wars. *I* wouldn't get into vinyl these days unless I was willing to make a pretty serious commitment. Fortunately, I've got three vintage turntables and a pretty decent collection of records that I bought new back in the day. I still buy records now but only thrift store and similar finds and only the 50's and 60's kitschy stuff like Martin Denny, Les Baxter, similar exotica artists when I can find them. Frank, Dean, Tony, That sort of stuff. I recently bought a 1969 Zenith hi-fi console in terrific condition and it's the perfect venue for playing old records and experiencing them the way they were meant to be experienced when they were new.

I love playing my records but I side very firmly with the good digital is vastly superior to good vinyl. I also don't care much for tubes other than my guitar amps.
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post #72 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
If these pressing plants didn't exist, then were is all the new vinyl coming from?

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Many pressing plants are running 24/7
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post #73 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 04:48 AM
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Vinyl is fun, but it's not better than a CD.

A CD is much easier to take care of. You never have to worry about it being full of dust. You don't have to worry about it warping. You never have to worry about cleaning it before you play it. Don't get me wrong, both formats will last if taken care of, but all you have to do with a CD is take it out and play it, and put it back in its case.

A CD costs less to buy, new or used. A new CD is ~$12 typically in my area. Used CD's I've gotten as low as $1/ea. on clearance. Usually I can get em for $4-5. Just searching through Amazon, the cheapest vinyl I see there new is $14. Then add in the cost of shipping. I realize most of you can probably go to a music store and buy a record, but many people cannot, therefore it's harder and more expensive to get vinyl than it is to get a CD or a download.

My experience has always been that with proper mastering, CD sounds better. I know that's going to piss off people who have their vast vinyl collections and years of listening to music on vinyl. I know vinyl is full of that warm, analog, sound. But that requires a lot of work and money to achieve. It is also extremely dependent on your setup. One can invest thousands of dollars into a turntable setup.

Basically, a record plays great for a few plays, and you'll get great sound, then it's all downhill from there because there's physical contact with the needle and it destroys the media each play.

A CD's sound never degrades. I think anyone who knew anything about this stuff, would say that a CD is always consistent in its sound. That is -- a CD is never going to degrade in its sound quality. It will always sound the same no matter how many times you play it.

Yes, the Loudness War and careless mastering sucks, but when mastered correctly, a CD easily beats vinyl.

I never grew up with vinyl. I grew up with cassette and CD, then the crappy MP3's of Napster. I tried my hand at vinyl recently, and to be honest, I'll take clean sound over snap, crackle, pop any day of the week.

I think what we can all agree on is that dynamic range compression and careless mastering has to stop.

So to the original poster -- no, I do not believe vinyl is worth getting into unless you are a hobbyist or already have a lot of vinyl like I did. There is a reason why vinyl went out of style for a long time. I think it's only coming back as of late because of hipsters (who also will try to convince you cassettes 'sound better') and because of audiophiles upset with the mastering practices we see associated with the Loudness Wars.

All this is purely based on my opinions and experiences and I'm sticking to them.

-hogger
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post #74 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
18g ! Jeez that's light. Any new pressing is better than the ones I've used for 35-45 years The newest I've got is a "180g" pressing of a Van Morrison....still doesn't overcome the inherent flaws in vinyl recording/playback.
Lol. Stupid typo.
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post #75 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 09:34 AM
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To the original poster


I have recently gotten back into vinyl and here are a few of my observations/opinions. I grew up with records as a teenager along with cassettes. When CDs first came out I was the first to jump on the digital bandwagon and over time sold my turntable which at the time was a 100.00 Fisher unit. As I got older my audio hobby progressed to buying more CDs and better equipment, then digital downloads. I fully embraced the Mini disk (I still have a player/recorder) and then home theater surround with the advent of DVD's and now Blue Ray. I have spent over 30 years constantly upgrading my equipment and have now gotten to the point of whats left to buy or explore. Then one day me and the wife were out shopping and ran across an actual record store and decided to go in. Browsing the isles brought back a lot of old memories and there was a copy of an album I had as a kid, mind you I have the album on CD but what always bothered me was the fact that they cut off 3 of the songs that were on the album. Anyway we got home and I started looking at turntables and after weeks of reading up I decided to take the plunge and purchase a MMF 7.1. Now mind you this is not you typical early 1980's turntable, they have really changed as far as design. I also figured I would need the peripherals like cleaners, anti-static gun, bubble levels, vertical pressure gauge for the tone arm ect.
I also figured a good phono preamp was in need as the Yamaha CX-5000 has a phono input but it's only decent so I picked up a Project Phono Box RS. So now it's all setup and I have a mix of 180 gram re-releases and used albums that I really enjoy going to stores and hunting for. As far as sound, I could not be happier, yes there is the occasional pop and click (especially on used vinyl) but I find if you are picky about the used vinyl you buy, clean it thoroughly, brush and anti static the record before you play and keep your needle clean the sound is amazing. Now I am not going to tell you vinyl is better than digital, but they are different and different in a good way. Depending on what's going on in the household, if we are busy cleaning ect, digital is easy, turn on Pandora or stream from my home server is quick and easy and there is minimal interaction from the listener, but if you really are listening to music and relaxing, the setup, prep, and playback of vinyl to me is an enjoyable experience. Heck now it's more of what to listen to cassette, cd, vinyl, minidisk, DVD Audio, Blue Ray audio, streaming media, HD audio than the quality because to me they all sound great. Heck call in nostalgia if you will but to the OP with vinyl you do get what you pay for. Buy a cheap turntable and run it through a low grade phono stage and you get so-so sound. Take your time research and save to get a middle to high quality unit with a matching phono preamp and it will sound amazing. Also make sure you get the peripherals you need consisting of a good brush, record cleaner, anti-static gun, needle cleaner (Magic Eraser), and do research on line of the proper care of your turntable and more importantly you vinyl. One last note, that record I saw, I went back and bought it, and man did it bring back some memories, that night when listening to it I felt 15 again and nothing can put a price tag on that.
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post #76 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 09:53 AM
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I've gone back to my roots over the last few years and have gone into Vinyl as my primary source. Why?? I like the way it sounds. It's strictly a personal choice. The enjoyment factor is just much higher for me. I don't worry about all these numbers and statistics. I like music to be presented sonically in a certain way and the record does it for me. We live in a great era as we have so many choices to choose from. As Bo Diddley once sang "Who do you Love". Just pick the format you love and enjoy the music. This world is full of polls and stats to tell us what we should and shouldn't like. My ears will dictate my preference.
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post #77 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post
The measurement on Dr loudness don't work on vinyl. http://youtu.be/n-AE9dL5FG8
That's one example from a song that used the digital CD master as the source for the vinyl master. That's not always the case, and was never the case for vinyl records mastered before CD, where the CD "re mastered" release has been compressed.

So, no, you cannot say that in every case the DR meter doesn't work for vinyl.

The digital files I've ripped from 30+ year old vinyl, for those where I also have a CD remaster, have been better sounding (dynamically) about 70% of the time. CDs I have from the 80's (advent of CD) through early 90's all sound fantastic. Later "remastered" or "anniversary edition" copies are noticeably worse.

This isn't unique to vinyl vs CD. Pick up an original CD release of Michael Jackson's Thriller, then compare it to the Anniversary Edition CD. There's no comparison. The original CD sounds better/more dynamic.

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post #78 of 187 Old 08-24-2014, 10:27 AM
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I mentioned record stores a while back, but wish to re-emphasis the point: If you are of an age that was familiar with playing LPs and haven't been in a good record store lately, you are missing out.

I don't explore music anymore because I don't listen to the radio or have friends with a good music collection. So a good used record store with a friendly clerk is a great source to discover music I might have missed, or re-discover bands/musicians and songs I had forgotten about.

Yesterday I spent some time in a small neighborhood vinyl boutique that stocked mainly collectible LPs in very good shape. A bit pricey compared to other stores, but the stack I bought sounds so good playing on my modest turntable setup. The clerk told me about an area antique store where he stocks his overrun, less desirable, more worn LPs. I went to this location and starting going crazy in this goldmine. I pulled out way too much stuff, and I wound up putting about half back.

This morning I listened to the albums during my Sunday morning coffee, and loved each one. I don't think I would have had this great experience with digital.

I remember having favorite LPs as a kid, picking out a favorite song - initially often the hit single or the song played on the radio. But after a while, other tracks rose to the top. And sometimes, a least favorite track would become a favorite weeks later, mainly because I didn't instantly skip it like I can with digital.

"Ritual"? Maybe, but even though digital might be the cleanest and technically best way to play back music, I find vinyl is a better way for me to make musical discoveries. And in my setup, clean vinyl simply sounds better than CDs. This might be because of the psychological connection to LPs, but I'm fine with that.
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post #79 of 187 Old 08-25-2014, 04:23 AM
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Interestingly enough after reading this thread I was left wondering if 3D printing will ever effect home music listening. Can that favorite vinyl record be as simple as a download? I have long since given up vinyl and don't have the room nor budget to get back into it but enjoy reading these discussions.
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post #80 of 187 Old 08-25-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
I mentioned record stores a while back, but wish to re-emphasis the point: If you are of an age that was familiar with playing LPs and haven't been in a good record store lately, you are missing out.

I don't explore music anymore because I don't listen to the radio or have friends with a good music collection. So a good used record store with a friendly clerk is a great source to discover music I might have missed, or re-discover bands/musicians and songs I had forgotten about.

Yesterday I spent some time in a small neighborhood vinyl boutique that stocked mainly collectible LPs in very good shape. A bit pricey compared to other stores, but the stack I bought sounds so good playing on my modest turntable setup. The clerk told me about an area antique store where he stocks his overrun, less desirable, more worn LPs. I went to this location and starting going crazy in this goldmine. I pulled out way too much stuff, and I wound up putting about half back.

This morning I listened to the albums during my Sunday morning coffee, and loved each one. I don't think I would have had this great experience with digital.

I remember having favorite LPs as a kid, picking out a favorite song - initially often the hit single or the song played on the radio. But after a while, other tracks rose to the top. And sometimes, a least favorite track would become a favorite weeks later, mainly because I didn't instantly skip it like I can with digital.

"Ritual"? Maybe, but even though digital might be the cleanest and technically best way to play back music, I find vinyl is a better way for me to make musical discoveries. And in my setup, clean vinyl simply sounds better than CDs. This might be because of the psychological connection to LPs, but I'm fine with that.
Back in the day I would spend a lot of time at the big Tower Records at Bay & Columbus in San Francisco. Great place at the time (early 70s) as were Rasputin Records and Amoeba soon after. Even tho I moved away from the SF bay area recently, I don't think I'd been to a record store in the 10 years before that. I don't want my music on vinyl anymore, so not likely to go hang out in a record store although maybe I should at least give it a shot next time I'm in town (Eugene is closest). My go to has been setting up various "stations" for artists and types of music I like (about 85 stations currently) on Pandora and letting it "discover" related stuff for me, note who and what albums and then go digital shopping for....saves a bunch in gas, too.
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post #81 of 187 Old 08-25-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post
To the original poster


I have recently gotten back into vinyl and here are a few of my observations/opinions. I grew up with records as a teenager along with cassettes. When CDs first came out I was the first to jump on the digital bandwagon and over time sold my turntable which at the time was a 100.00 Fisher unit. As I got older my audio hobby progressed to buying more CDs and better equipment, then digital downloads. I fully embraced the Mini disk (I still have a player/recorder) and then home theater surround with the advent of DVD's and now Blue Ray. I have spent over 30 years constantly upgrading my equipment and have now gotten to the point of whats left to buy or explore. Then one day me and the wife were out shopping and ran across an actual record store and decided to go in. Browsing the isles brought back a lot of old memories and there was a copy of an album I had as a kid, mind you I have the album on CD but what always bothered me was the fact that they cut off 3 of the songs that were on the album. Anyway we got home and I started looking at turntables and after weeks of reading up I decided to take the plunge and purchase a MMF 7.1. Now mind you this is not you typical early 1980's turntable, they have really changed as far as design. I also figured I would need the peripherals like cleaners, anti-static gun, bubble levels, vertical pressure gauge for the tone arm ect.
I also figured a good phono preamp was in need as the Yamaha CX-5000 has a phono input but it's only decent so I picked up a Project Phono Box RS. So now it's all setup and I have a mix of 180 gram re-releases and used albums that I really enjoy going to stores and hunting for. As far as sound, I could not be happier, yes there is the occasional pop and click (especially on used vinyl) but I find if you are picky about the used vinyl you buy, clean it thoroughly, brush and anti static the record before you play and keep your needle clean the sound is amazing. Now I am not going to tell you vinyl is better than digital, but they are different and different in a good way. Depending on what's going on in the household, if we are busy cleaning ect, digital is easy, turn on Pandora or stream from my home server is quick and easy and there is minimal interaction from the listener, but if you really are listening to music and relaxing, the setup, prep, and playback of vinyl to me is an enjoyable experience. Heck now it's more of what to listen to cassette, cd, vinyl, minidisk, DVD Audio, Blue Ray audio, streaming media, HD audio than the quality because to me they all sound great. Heck call in nostalgia if you will but to the OP with vinyl you do get what you pay for. Buy a cheap turntable and run it through a low grade phono stage and you get so-so sound. Take your time research and save to get a middle to high quality unit with a matching phono preamp and it will sound amazing. Also make sure you get the peripherals you need consisting of a good brush, record cleaner, anti-static gun, needle cleaner (Magic Eraser), and do research on line of the proper care of your turntable and more importantly you vinyl. One last note, that record I saw, I went back and bought it, and man did it bring back some memories, that night when listening to it I felt 15 again and nothing can put a price tag on that.
You forgot to mention a disc clamp to make sure that the record stays "level".

Anyway another poster endorsed my theory that the inadequate sound from some CDs is due to the engineer and/or producer; just because one can do many things with digital, doesn't mean they should do it.

Another thing about vinyl is no one mentioned the use of "recycled" vinyl because of the oil crisis during the '70s; check the sound out about those recordings.

Also regarding vinyl, with all the care needed to play a record, there were lots of box sets that had "split" symphonies because the full symphony wouldn't fit into the record along with another piece. Anyway, my preference is the performance of the artists & the sound quality is secondary for what I want to listen.
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post #82 of 187 Old 08-26-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Right now as I type, I'm listening to a Django Reinhardt - Solos/Duets/Trios - Volume 2 on vinyl, and it is a delight - clean, clear, crisp, quiet. Given that these recordings were, at best, laid down in the 50's, it really sound good. Given that this album is out of print in vinyl, I was curious if I could buy it on CD. So, I searched Amazon, and sure enough it is available. But I can't help wondering how badly they screwed it up? I'm sure for convenient casual listening, it would be fine, but the vinyl has subtleties that I can't describe.
I believe this covers that album:
http://www.amazon.com/Django-Reinhardt-Volume-2/dp/B00005A7KP/
and you can not go wrong with the transfers
This is great also, also excellent transfers:
http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Early-...dp/B00004S5WA/
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post #83 of 187 Old 08-26-2014, 03:13 PM
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I grew up with vinyl. As a boy I had original Capitol 45s of the Beatles! I've experienced all the things you mention. I still don't get it. The experience is the music, not the preparation. You hear the experience, ritual, and nostalgia everywhere. Seems to just be a way of justifying an inferior format.
No way would I talk my daughter out of the pure joy she gets out of her vinyl collection and the involvement of using it and using a turntable that belonged to her grandfather and then me and amps/speakers/sub that belonged to me.

That's probably part of it for her also.

But I use the TT to digitize for convenience and not for listening to vinyl direct.

To much of PITA as you say.

Don't know why you're bashing current vinyl lovers though; they are enjoying the music and going out of their way to buy vinyl versions of new bands' releases.

I ride motorcycles, but would never ride a Harley.

That said I don't bash Harley riders because they are riding a bike with obsolete engine technology.

I also think Royal Enfields and Urals are cool and actually thought of buying a Ural Side Hack outfit once but thought better of it!
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post #84 of 187 Old 08-26-2014, 11:22 PM
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That's one example from a song that used the digital CD master as the source for the vinyl master. That's not always the case, and was never the case for vinyl records mastered before CD, where the CD "re mastered" release has been compressed.

So, no, you cannot say that in every case the DR meter doesn't work for vinyl.
Yes, I can say that because if its wrong in one case, it can be wrong in every other case.

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post #85 of 187 Old 08-26-2014, 11:28 PM
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Yes, I can say that because if its wrong in one case, it can be wrong in every other case.
Robert Altman made a bad movie, "Dr. T and the Women", therefore all Robert Altman films were bad.

Is that what you're saying? Because it sounds like that's what you're saying.

Cherry picking is bad no matter the context.
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post #86 of 187 Old 08-26-2014, 11:38 PM
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Being older than rocks, when I get really nostalgic I'll bust out one of the hundreds from my ancient rock vinyl collection. I enjoy the emotion of that moment.

Those moments are brief...and why I've lugged around all these albums for more years than I can remember, I'll never know. Then, when the brief memory of my misbegotten youth passes...give me digital. PLEASE!

Generally, it's an expensive hobby to begin in. Stick to spinning CDs.

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they're not just for breakfast anymore.
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post #87 of 187 Old 08-27-2014, 12:45 AM
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Wow, this thread is a bit depressing! ha. I am thinking about getting into vinyl. A lot of the newer artists I listen to do releases in vinyl in addition to CD and digital and I love music (rock, blues, country, etc) from the old days. I already have a tube preamp, McIntosh C2500, so I was thinking about taking the plunge. I have never played a record in my life, but was always under the impression that it was a richer and warmer sound than CD.
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post #88 of 187 Old 08-27-2014, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post

Don't know why you're bashing current vinyl lovers though; they are enjoying the music and going out of their way to buy vinyl versions of new bands' releases.
I didn't bash a single vinyl user. But I will point out that its a poorer format, and have done so many times in the two channel audio section. If someone likes the 'ritual' then to each his own. I just point out my preference, the music is the 'ritual', and I want the purest playback of it I can get. I'll take a well mastered digital recording any day over vinyl.

BTW those new band's vinyl releases probably spent time in the digital domain prior to being cut to vinyl.

Last edited by glangford; 08-27-2014 at 02:52 AM.
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post #89 of 187 Old 08-27-2014, 06:44 AM
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... I already have a tube preamp, McIntosh C2500, so I was thinking about taking the plunge. I have never played a record in my life, but was always under the impression that it was a richer and warmer sound than CD.
You owe it to yourself to give it a try, if you have resources. Especially if you like older music.

Your McIntosh has a phono input, just waiting to be explored. Try to borrow a decent turntable with a good cartridge, or maybe buy something cheap from a place that has vintage gear - used record stores sometimes sell turntables, although usually not audiophile grade. And get an LP or two in good condition, i.e. newly re-mastered LP on 180/200 gram vinyl, or an older, well-produced album that's clean of dirt, dust, and scratches and was well mixed for the day. I like the sound of early 70s Doobie Brothers (pre-Michael McDonald) to show off the charm of LP.

If the occasional pop and click from dust, static, or improper care, or the surface noise from a needle on a platter drive you crazy, then vinyl isn't for you. Yes, these are the things to try to minimize, but to vinyl lovers they don't get in the way of the music at all.

I'm not going to argue with those that say digital is a superior and more convenient way to listen to music. But don't let them convince you vinyl sounds bad - with a little care and effort, vinyl LPs have their own sound that can be very pleasing.
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Last edited by DaverJ; 08-27-2014 at 08:31 AM.
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post #90 of 187 Old 08-27-2014, 07:27 AM
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I have never played a record in my life, but was always under the impression that it was a richer and warmer sound than CD.

That's the impressions the marketing department is trying to create to get everyone to re-buy their entire CD collection on vinyl.


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