Is vinyl worth getting into? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:06 AM
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Here's a good Wiki for everyone participating in this thread:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Vinyl_Myths

If there's inaccuracies, it's open to edit.

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"My advice: don't spend money on therapy. Spend it in a record store." – Wim Wenders
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post #152 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
A digital system (HT system) has 5.1 reproductive capabilities- five channels, plus a sub. A dedicated stereo system reproduces stereo vinyl in... stereo! Even if I were to run the digital system in two channel, it still isn't the same as the speakers have less than optimum spacing for stereo.
That's funny...my 5.1 system has no problem playing 2-channel music in stereo, using only 2 speakers. I must be special.
And my speakers are optimally spaced, regardless of medium.

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post #153 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
You can run it through plugins to the SNR, increase the distortion and add random clicks and pops, but I see no reason why a rational person would want to do this.

Given the same mix, 16/44 digital is far superior to vinyl in every way.
Agreed...emphasized portion is the key.

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post #154 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
Vinyl has a more open sound. Comparing vinyl to a cd is like comparing a dvda to a 128 download.
No, it doesn't. That's an audiophile myth that has been debunked repeatedly.

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post #155 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
Vinyl has a more open sound. Comparing vinyl to a cd is like comparing a dvda to a 128 download.
It would be easier to make vinyl sound like a cd. First, run it through a 16/44 digital convertor, remove the imaging that vinyl has. Then, run it through a compressor so that is has no dynamic range left.
Now you have your "superior" digital sound! Listen to it to through your ear buds at ear damaging levels, while smuggly believing that those old guys with vinyl and 9' tall electrostatic speakers don't have any idea what good sound it.

As one who has both I can state that you are shall we say, mistaken. I have a very nice turntable (VPI, Kuzma) and a good but under $1k Dac. I play all my digital from my computer via USB all with solid state drives. The digital is better than the vinyl is all respects, more open, tighter stronger bass, lower noise floor, better dynamics, imaging, you name it. I now have over 500 LPS and they are all collecting dust. While digital had its issues early, those issues are long gone with the advent of computer audio using solid state drives and power management for USB with devices like the Wyrd. I no longer spin anything, Vinyl or CDs. I rip my CDs or download high rez digital. YOU may want to try computer based audio. You may be surprised, very surprised. I have run into my share of vinyl only audiophiles who have been shocked at the quality of a new computer based digital system and who have taken the plunge or are about to.
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post #156 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 04:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
Vinyl has a more open sound. Comparing vinyl to a cd is like comparing a dvda to a 128 download.
It would be easier to make vinyl sound like a cd. First, run it through a 16/44 digital convertor, remove the imaging that vinyl has. Then, run it through a compressor so that is has no dynamic range left.
Now you have your "superior" digital sound! Listen to it to through your ear buds at ear damaging levels, while smuggly believing that those old guys with vinyl and 9' tall electrostatic speakers don't have any idea what good sound it.
Vinyl has some hollow mechanical sort of sounds from the stylus riding in a valley of vinyl, aside from the rice krispies sound, sort of an overall background wall of noise....is that the "open" sound? While I'm glad you enjoy vinyl, I don't see/hear the medium as you do, only reason to use my vinyl setup now is for nostalgia and some digitizing for convenience. I don't like earbuds, rarely use headphones altho I do admit to liking some concert level volume now and then but overall sounds like you have unreasonable issues with digital recordings; fwiw not all digital recordings are compressed/dynamic range squeezed to death, altho some genres of music I generally don't listen to do seem to have this issue these days but I'm an old guy too and am happy without the latest pop stuff. 9' speakers don't sound too fun to move....and my ceiling isn't tall enough either. I did have 5' high ribbon speakers once, they were a pain to move and place!
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post #157 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 05:31 PM
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I bought a Monster brand penny for only $139.99.
So, it is a Monster penny. It may be too heavy though for the task.
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post #158 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko85 View Post
That's funny...my 5.1 system has no problem playing 2-channel music in stereo, using only 2 speakers. I must be special.
And my speakers are optimally spaced, regardless of medium.
No problem playing back 2 channel music? That's a meaningless statement. My iphone has no problem playing back two channel music- does that mean it's better?
Like I said before, if you have crap quality components, don't bother with vinyl, you won't hear the vinyl superiority over a cd. If you are listening to cones in boxes, you won't hear what you are missing, you need to move up to stats or, even better, plasma drivers.
The fact is that the most distortion introduced in the music chain is in the speakers. Cones and domes can't reproduce the all the transients of music very accuarately; the inertia in them prevents them from doing so. Until you hear them, you have no idea,

Last edited by dclark; 09-10-2014 at 06:54 PM.
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post #159 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
Like I said before, if you have crap quality components, don't bother with vinyl, you won't hear the vinyl superiority over a cd.
You won't because there isn't any. Feel free to point out any metric where it's better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
If you are listening to cones in boxes, you won't hear what you are missing, you need to move up to stats or, even better, plasma drivers.
The fact is that the most distortion introduced in the music chain is in the speakers. Cones and domes can't reproduce the all the transients of music very accuarately; the inertia in them prevents them from doing so. Until you hear them, you have no idea,
Absolute rubbish.
I've had stats and sold them. I recently had the opportunity to hear the TOTL Martin Logans and whilst nice, were nowhere near what I have now.
Stats have two very great difficulties to overcome: first they have poor bass because of cancellation from the rear wave, a common problem with all OB designs. Second, as the wavefront being regenerated is happening at the entire large panel at once, there are large time of flight differences from the sound generated at the ends of the panel versus the middle, they by nature create combing. The best plasmas are barely useable as tweeters let alone anything else. As there is no material above 22kHz, there is no need to reproduce it. Vinyl doesn't have any more bandwidth either.
Stats make great headphones, which is why I've used STAX since the 80's but would never bother with them for speakers.

When you have to drag out the old canard of 'you can't hear it because you don't have equipment/ears as good as mine' you have nothing to offer but your own imagined sense of superiority.
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post #160 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
Like I said before, if you have crap quality components, don't bother with vinyl, you won't hear the vinyl superiority over a cd.




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post #161 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Feel free to point out any metric where it's better.
That really is the point.

I don't know too much at all, but I never heard of a metric in which vinyl actually is better than digital.

I get that some people like it better, but when they claim vinyl is objectively better than CD, I feel I'm OK to stop listening to them altogether. They can never just leave it at "I like it better." It always must be "superior," even though the facts say otherwise.
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post #162 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 08:18 PM
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Really I like this debate although it has been discussed ad nausea (sick). In the end it's objective 'better' or the subjective 'better'. Objectively vinyl is inferior to CD, subjectively LPs are championed for the same reasons that make them inferior. The warmth that's described is actually bass being inaccurate, bass needs to be processed to meet the medium and as an added bonus - distortion introduced by the TT. If you prefer those then fine - but agree it's a matter of taste than being the better medium.

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post #163 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post
I don't know too much at all, but I never heard of a metric in which vinyl actually is better than digital.
I have no illusion that vinyl is a better medium than digital but have mentioned that the better mastering for me is the deciding factor (if I have both to choose from.) There were some crap CDs produced early on and 'Aqualung' is the poster child where the first vinyl pressing were far superior to the CD.

And yes, hard limiting is the bane of the CD industry. As pointed out by another above that doesn't apply to what (very) little new music I buy because it's generally a different genre than those affected.

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post #164 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
No problem playing back 2 channel music? That's a meaningless statement.
I didn't realize trolls had such short memories.

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post
A digital system (HT system) has 5.1 reproductive capabilities- five channels, plus a sub. A dedicated stereo system reproduces stereo vinyl in... stereo!
The rest of your retort is meaningless rubbish.

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post #165 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post
I get that some people like it better, but when they claim vinyl is objectively better than CD
I do too, and even like it myself. I grew up before CD was released and still have far more LPs than CDs. Mainly because most music in the last decade or so is crap. My TT is also excellent and has 3 SME and Townshend arms all with good carts and the bedroom has a Gyro with a pair of SAEC arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post
They can never just leave it at "I like it better." It always must be "superior," even though the facts say otherwise.
I don't get this either and it seems to be a very audiophile thing. If this was about cars and someone said a 68 Mustang performs better than a 2014 model, they'd be laughed at. No one would laugh though if they said 'I have more fun driving my 68 than my 14'.
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post #166 of 187 Old 09-10-2014, 09:42 PM
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I'll be back later...


System links::: 1.5RQ > digits from all sources > 1177a > OpenDRC-DI with AcourateDRC > DEQ2496 > DAC2 > KCT > FPB 350mcx > reQuest + Cheezewoofer Wattless Deluxe > Sweetspot

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post #167 of 187 Old 09-11-2014, 08:42 AM
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Engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another, the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do, behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel.
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post #168 of 187 Old 09-11-2014, 11:04 AM
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I think my views were covered nicely in Page #2 - Post #58 .

If we look at the raw format and capabilities of Vinyl vs CD, then I think CD wins.

However, that's not the real question. In my experience, though not exclusively, if we look at the content on Vinyl vs the content on CD, then Vinyl wins.

Without a doubt vinyl has clear indisputable drawbacks. But CD also has drawback, though they are very different drawbacks originating from very different sources.

CD's are dying because they did not live up to their potential, and of course because the market is becoming more diluted. You have many more options as to how, what, and where you purchase and/or consume music.

Instead of refining CDs to maximize the potential that was there, the makers of CDs have fallen more and more, deeper and deeper into a Good Enough attitude.

For those listening to historically transient music, far more important than the quality of the music and the quality of the sound is whether or not the singer is cute. They are selling image over content.

However, for those of use with more historically durable tastes, Good Enough is not remotely good enough. We didn't spend thousands to simply have our music be good enough.

Yes, the marketing executives are concentrating on the largest buy demographic, but in doing so, they are make more serious listener less and less and less and less willing to buy music, the quality of which, they simply can't trust.

I think those leaning more toward Classical and Jazz/Blues are probably in the best position to be assured that the music they buy is going to be as good as the marketing executives will allow it to be. Certainly better than good enough.

For me, the real war is being fought for quality of content, not format.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #169 of 187 Old 09-11-2014, 04:30 PM
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I have heard some vinyl rips that sound amazing but after getting my own TT setup I am not hearing any greatness. SL-1800mk2 with AT440MLa cartridge/needle. I have the best versions of Michael Jackson on cd and bought 2 vinyl MJ albums in near mint and one brand new also known to be the favored vinyl versions. Using Sennheiser HD 558 headphones to do comparisons I find the vinyl has a lot of problems compared to the accurate cd's. Now it could be my alignment or possibly something wrong with my equipment but I dont think so, cartridge could be a little off. I hear things on my cd's that are not there in the vinyl and find myself listening for the problems with vinyl instead of simply enjoying the music. Is it worth getting into if you have never had it or become familiar with it before? NO
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post #170 of 187 Old 09-11-2014, 09:19 PM
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Im trying to find a GOOD replacement needle!!

I have had THE WRONG NEEDLE for sometime and it just doesnt sound good.... (I think its too short,etc) -- The 78 tip IS NOT A TRUE 78 NEEDLE (It plays 33/45s fine) and the 33 side sounds crappy!!

I ordered a needle last week from a place who emailed me and said "We have the right needle for your magnavox" -- What they sent me was a piece of crap just about THE SAME as what I had! (#2619)

I did have a #28 needle (slightly longer) and it did sound better but I accidently messed that up and Now I wish I was more careful... (I was trying to put in another needle for testing and the shaft came off of the #28 )

ARE THERE ANY GOOD NEEDLE SUPPLIERS AROUND ANYMORE? (With TRUE 78 tips also)
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post #171 of 187 Old 09-11-2014, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
Im trying to find a GOOD replacement needle!!

I have had THE WRONG NEEDLE for sometime and it just doesnt sound good.... (I think its too short,etc) -- The 78 tip IS NOT A TRUE 78 NEEDLE (It plays 33/45s fine) and the 33 side sounds crappy!!

I ordered a needle last week from a place who emailed me and said "We have the right needle for your magnavox" -- What they sent me was a piece of crap just about THE SAME as what I had! (#2619)

I did have a #28 needle (slightly longer) and it did sound better but I accidently messed that up and Now I wish I was more careful... (I was trying to put in another needle for testing and the shaft came off of the #28 )

ARE THERE ANY GOOD NEEDLE SUPPLIERS AROUND ANYMORE? (With TRUE 78 tips also)
Yeah needledoctor.com, LPgear.com, and you can try searching the JICO web site they make good quality replacement needles I hear. Heres the JICO link http://stylus.export-japan.com/index...pnephmotucve72
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post #172 of 187 Old 09-12-2014, 01:10 AM
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Gracious JB82,i do appreaciate it muchly
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post #173 of 187 Old 09-12-2014, 01:55 AM
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Since this thing is still going...I'll add my .03!

I've read a couple of pages of this, skimmed the 3rd and then jumped here.

I'd say that you'd have to do it right or not at all. If you want to go cheap, you'll a) have to do a lot of research and waiting for the right used TT (Remembering that they're old, maybe not set up right with parts hard to obtain) and try out cartridges or b) spend a decent amount of money.

I recently had an opportunity to listen to someone's cheap but new TT through an OK system and frankly, it was painful. That actually surprised me, when she put on the first album, I was expecting not the greatest but something smooth and listenable. It was harsh and grating. Yuck.

You can't just get anything and expect it to sound good or better.
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post #174 of 187 Old 09-12-2014, 02:01 AM
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Just a reminder as this was posted already in the wiki post:

http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
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post #175 of 187 Old 05-17-2015, 06:23 PM
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My 2 Cents

Is vinyl worth getting into? It depends on what aspect of this hobby drives your interest. I am an avid audiophile, but my abiding interest is listening to music that is emotionally engaging. Better sound quality increases my enjoyment, but it is not what floats my boat. I would rather listen to an outstanding musical performance, compromised by a poor audio system and questionable software vs. hear the ultimate reproduction of an incompetent musician. For this reason I listen to engaging music on all media. I also listen to live music whenever possible.
I recently upgraded my turntable, arm and cartridge. The cost was greater than my digital source, or for that matter, my likely next digital source, but I view it as a relative bargain, since my average vinyl cost is far lower than my average digital media cost (I discount pirating as a fair comparison). I have been given hundreds of albums in the past few years, by friends and associates who no longer want them around the house. Garage sales have been a constant source of bargains. Just yesterday I picked up 33 mint condition albums for $20. Several of them are out of print and hard to acquire. For me, the chance to find great music, at a bargain price, is a marvelous boon. It also gives me the chance to explore the musical landscape, at little risk. I realize that used CDs are available at low cost, but I find them relatively scarce and more expensive. In addition, I will happily purchase a garage sale album for $0.50-$$1.00, without knowing if I will enjoy the performance. The same is not true at $15+ a pop. Not to mention that a tremendous amount of music will never make it to digital media.
As to the relative sound quality, great sound can be had from vinyl, analog tape or digital media; so can poor sound. It all depends on the engineering process, from performance to final product.
So is it worth getting into; for me yes.
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post #176 of 187 Old 05-17-2015, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post

So the question is, is vinyl really worth all that effort and expense? Or would the better route be to seek the best digital version out there?

If you're talking about starting from scratch with all new equipment I ask why not? Despite some saying that you have to spend thousands to get a decent vinyl setup, it can be relatively low cost or at least the same cost as getting into a decent digital rig. But my question is why not have both? I do.


I have a Music Hall MMF-5 turntable and a Sony SACD player and will soon have a Pioneer (maybe...doing research) music server. SACD and CD are soon (if not already) going to be the next thrift store music boon. The days of easily finding mint vinyl copies of DSOTM or Blue Note classics by the dozen are over, but I still get plenty of super cheap LPs at thrifts and garage sales. And I do get the occasional score, but most often I get good solid music that's fun to listen to for peanuts.


I just picked up a Denon fully automatic turntable in perfect working condition with a Stanton cart on it for $20. It sounds great. I moved it into the HT just in case I want to spin some of that cheap thrift store vinyl in there. They are out there. There's no rule that says you can't experiment with thrift store finds. Part of the fun putting together your system should be the hunt for the perfect combination of components.

Truck? What truck?
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post #177 of 187 Old 05-19-2015, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Well back in January I came across a Technics SL-1200 turntable in excellent condition on Craigslist for $300, the bit of research I'd done informed me how much of a steel that was, so I pulled the trigger. Since then I'm up to a little over 100 albums lol. Between a few local vinyl shops, flea markets and Discogs there is plenty of clean vinyl out there. So far I've compared some Metallica, Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath records to their digital counterparts and have found the digital versions wanting across the board. I don't think it's that vinyl is inherently better than digital, I get the sense that more care and effort goes into creating the vinyl mix. Case in point, the new Nine Inch Nails album Hesitation Marks actually sounds better on vinyl than the CD copy it came with! Reznor's voice comes through clearer, and the music has a bit more depth.

Plus I do find I enjoy the ritual, made me realize how rare it was that I'd listen to a whole album.. it's a nice thing to do.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Snake Plissken

 

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post #178 of 187 Old 05-19-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by plissken99 View Post
80% of what I like is pre 1990.
The "Best format" has go nothing to do with your decision.
A lot of that older stuff only came out on vinyl.
If your happy with a single "Best of" Cd then I wouldn't bother.
If you want every album done by a group you'll need a
turn table
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post #179 of 187 Old 05-19-2015, 10:02 PM
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Ahhh, nostalgia.....da dayz of my yoot'....

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Originally Posted by Section 107 View Post
Spent a weekend at Morro Bay, California. The Bay Theater -- an old, family-owned single-screen moviehouse from days long gone. Closed for years, but with the indulgence of some audio vendors and a few other kindred, nostalgic spirits, there it was back in business. Not great, but respectable. Couldn't help rekindle feelings about my childhood wonders: walking down to the old Lamar Theater, a block from the ocean, to see a "radioactive" triple bill: Attack Of The Crab Monsters, The Cyclops, and The Amazing Colossal Man.

Imagine that, fellow moviegoers: three films for one admission!

It all got me so warm and fuzzy, bringing back those old memories, that I decided to stop by my youthful haunts and maybe get an emotional jolt at the sight of the old Lamar. If Morro Bay could do it, I figured, surely an affluent South Bay town near LA could pull it off.

The building that used to be the Lamar was still there, all right. But it's now the low-key, post-modernized headquarters for Skechers.

Oh well.

Nostalgia, indeed, is not what it used to be. And neither is vinyl.

Last edited by PrimeTime; 05-19-2015 at 10:14 PM.
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post #180 of 187 Old 05-19-2015, 10:16 PM
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Sorry, but no. The highest quality vinyl ever produced is being produced right now. The vinyl is much thicker and higher quality than anything produced 15+ years ago.
You are wrong of course.
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