Do I need a new, better, DAC? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 129 Old 08-31-2014, 06:18 PM
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Question

To the O.P.

I am currently using my Sony Blue Ray player (about 5 years old), and its built in DAC (RCA outs). Its hooked up to an old (1987) Adcom-555 solid state amp, feeding a pair of B741-scan speak speakers I have just finished building.

I am finishing building a new head unit (DAC & volume attenuator) to replace the blue ray players DAC. I felt the Blue ray player was being out-matched from a component quality standpoint, when compared to my amp and speakers.

I will only use the optical output (digital source) from the blue ray to the new DAC.

The new components that are going into my new head unit are-

Passive attenuator- http://www.khozmo.com/products_dale_shunt.html
And this DAC (white)- http://blacklionaudio.com/product/sparrow-dac/

These components are quite a step up (both in physical size and expense) from the cheap, one size fits all, dac that is stuffed in my blue ray player
(this is not to say that it will sound better).

I enjoy listening to a lot of the same content, so it wont be difficult for me to notice (or not notice) a difference.
I will report back and let you know my experience .

Regards !
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post #92 of 129 Old 08-31-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
What sort of payment do you require to do that?
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Originally Posted by MSchu18 View Post
perfect post... thank you. PM'ed you

FYI, I am looking to add a Bel Canto DAC.
What Amir neglected to say that he participated in a DBT to determine his abilities to hear jitter, and he started guessing randomly when the jitter was many orders of magnitude greater than any of the plots shown above.

Amir will say that the test covered only a narrow kind of jitter and that iS true, but he has had a standing offer of other tests involving other kinds of jitter FOR MONTHS to which he has not been able to response affirmitively for some reason.

So when you see these elaborate discussions of jitter, they relate to something that has no adequately demonstrated audibility at the levels shown.
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post #93 of 129 Old 08-31-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Is that what I said or the distorted version of what I said?
Hmm..., I thought I was expressing my own thoughts... Oh, that's right, you distort what people post here.

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Come back when you understand the difference between professional research and what I have quoted in red.
You mean you can hear the difference between expensive DACs you sell and much cheaper DACs found in AV receivers in level matched double blind test?
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post #94 of 129 Old 08-31-2014, 10:14 PM
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I think you should upgrade your Klipsch SW-115. There's a place you can get some good sound improvement

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post #95 of 129 Old 08-31-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
What Amir neglected to say that he participated in a DBT to determine his abilities to hear jitter, and he started guessing randomly when the jitter was many orders of magnitude greater than any of the plots shown above.

Amir will say that the test covered only a narrow kind of jitter and that iS true, but he has had a standing offer of other tests involving other kinds of jitter FOR MONTHS to which he has not been able to response affirmitively for some reason.

So when you see these elaborate discussions of jitter, they relate to something that has no adequately demonstrated audibility at the levels shown.
And the disjointed moral of the story is, don't bother posting any graphs when they show measurable differences, the collective will just claim it's not audible. Since they've been proven wrong that everything measures the same, they've done the grand old goal post movement and claim that it may indeed measure different, but it can't be heard. Meanwhile, those of us in the know enjoy excellent audio from better brand names with superior parts and techniques sometimes using cabling that is superior to lamp cord. For months, eh, Arny? Why don't you go listen to some Dianna Krall confident in your theory that Von Braun was just misunderstood. Your contributions have been very instructive.
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post #96 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post


Is that what I said or is it the distorted version of what I said?



“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant” ― Alan Greenspan

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post #97 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
And the disjointed moral of the story is, don't bother posting any graphs when they show measurable differences, the collective will just claim it's not audible.
That makes it sounds like a brainless knee-jerk.

Reality is that there are psychoacoustic limits to audibility and there are a lot of claims in audio from people who apparently didn't get the memo.

Quote:
Since they've been proven wrong that everything measures the same,
That claim has never ever been made. But thanks for making up a false claim to support the viewpoint that everything sounds different.

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they've done the grand old goal post movement and claim that it may indeed measure different, but it can't be heard.
Ignores the fact that some of the things that people claim to hear are pretty ludicrous if you understand the underlying science.

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Meanwhile, those of us in the know enjoy excellent audio from better brand names with superior parts and techniques sometimes using cabling that is superior to lamp cord.
Yet another made up claim.

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For months, eh, Arny? Why don't you go listen to some Dianna Krall
Been there done that.

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confident in your theory that Von Braun was just misunderstood.
?????

If you are talking about the horrific truth about the slave labor that was used to power many of Germany's high tech programs during WW2 - that was criminal, horrific, tragic, stupid and a waste.
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post #98 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
What Amir neglected to say that he participated in a DBT to determine his abilities to hear jitter, and he started guessing randomly when the jitter was many orders of magnitude greater than any of the plots shown above.
Good morning Arny. It is always a pleasure to wake up to one of your thoughtful posts that trigger further discussions. Alas, this is not one of those occasions as a) we have been through this watering hole before and b) your facts are not correct in any way.

Here is your request for me to run such a "jitter" test:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Fact, were Amir really interested in doing such a thing, he need only download a few files from:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0ov07gu5a...o9G4MUCm_6kMPa

and run Foobar2000 and listen for a few minutes, more or less.

I guarantee positive results for the training files, but as the jitter is reduced to levels closer to actual levels in audio gear, it may just disappear from perceptibility. It is this possiblity and I might add even just the possibility that raises paralyzing fear in the hearts of many. It is easy to predict that I will remain the only person who has auditioned them
.
The post was dated June 17th of this year. I have highlighted your challenge in red that no one but you would run the test.

Here is my response on June 18th, just one day after you wrote the above post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Sure, would be my pleasure. Here you go:

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:39:16

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz Severe Jitter 0.05.flac

16:39:16 : Test started.
16:39:52 : 01/01 50.0%
16:40:26 : 02/02 25.0%
16:40:38 : 03/03 12.5%
16:40:48 : 04/04 6.3%
16:40:58 : 05/05 3.1%
16:41:07 : 06/06 1.6%
16:41:24 : 07/07 0.8%
16:41:32 : 08/08 0.4%
16:41:51 : 09/09 0.2%
16:42:04 : 10/10 0.1%
16:42:12 : 11/11 0.0%
16:42:21 : 12/12 0.0%
16:42:43 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=============
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:33:19

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz max jitter 0.1.flac
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav

16:33:19 : Test started.
16:34:25 : 01/01 50.0%
16:34:38 : 02/02 25.0%
16:34:58 : 03/03 12.5%
16:35:16 : 04/04 6.3%
16:35:26 : 05/05 3.1%
16:35:41 : 06/06 1.6%
16:35:54 : 07/07 0.8%
16:36:34 : 08/08 0.4%
16:36:44 : 09/09 0.2%
16:36:54 : 10/10 0.1%
16:37:03 : 11/11 0.0%
16:37:13 : 12/12 0.0%
16:38:05 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

============

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 16:44:39

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz jitter strong level .025.flac

16:44:39 : Test started.
16:45:05 : 01/01 50.0%
16:45:15 : 02/02 25.0%
16:45:28 : 03/03 12.5%
16:45:36 : 04/04 6.3%
16:45:54 : 05/05 3.1%
16:46:17 : 06/06 1.6%
16:46:29 : 07/07 0.8%
16:46:45 : 08/08 0.4%
16:46:55 : 09/09 0.2%
16:47:05 : 10/10 0.1%
16:47:19 : 11/11 0.0%
16:47:33 : 12/12 0.0%
16:47:36 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

=====

foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2014/06/18 19:04:40

File A: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\no jitter.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Music\Arny's 30 Hz Jitter File\Arny's new files\30 Hz noticable jitter 0.0125.flac

19:04:40 : Test started.
19:05:27 : 01/01 50.0%
19:05:54 : 02/02 25.0%
19:06:19 : 03/03 12.5%
19:06:35 : 04/04 6.3%
19:06:57 : 05/05 3.1%
19:07:16 : 06/06 1.6%
19:07:43 : 07/07 0.8%
19:08:15 : 08/08 0.4%
19:08:37 : 09/09 0.2%
19:09:05 : 10/10 0.1%
19:09:30 : 11/11 0.0%
19:10:05 : 12/12 0.0%
19:10:09 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

BTW, Foobar ABX tool is fairly lousy when it comes to testing for smaller differences. It has a bunch of usability issues that make it harder than it should be to find the critical segments.

Good job on the last one Arny . It took fair bit of concentration to get that one.
There is no random guessing here Arny. I was right 12/12 times in all of them with zero, let me repeat, zero probability of chance.

When I repeatedly asked you to post your results, you kept making excuses ultimately saying your hearing is not as good as mine. That you damaged your hearing in 1960 (what you are doing 40 years later creating listening tests is beyond me), etc.

Your challenge then was demonstrated to be wrong there as you were not the only person who auditioned the files. And here, there is nothing random about my listening abilities.

Since you and many others could not get this far in this test, clearly your claims that psychoacoustics determines what we all hear and don't hear is falsified. Any listening test must have trained/expert listeners in it for validity. And this is the reason why. If we took 10 people like you and ran a listening tests, the results would be total garbage. I can find thousands of people who can't tell the difference between 128 kbps and CD on countless music tracks. That doesn't in any way prove transparency of MP3 to the source at 128 kbps.

Remember, this is a test that you created Arny. There is a single file and that is it. You have no evidence that this one single piece of music is most revealing of such artifacts. You threw it at us, claimed no one would run it, but we did and post positive outcomes. As we all know, your motivation is to show negative outcome. Since you selected the file, we can fully expect experimenter bias. That must have been the motivation behind claiming no one would even try to listen to these files let alone post the outcome as I have. Surely that confidence came from cooking the test such that you thought the outcome would be negative.

More on this in the next post.
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post #99 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 09:21 AM
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Amir will say that the test covered only a narrow kind of jitter and that iS true...
You don't say Arny. You simulated a single 30 Hz jitter tone. You have shown no data that this is representative of any product in the market. I asked you in the debate thread to show us measurements of your Denon AVR so that we can see you having picked this one frequency as the one of interest. You did not produce such despite multiple requests.

Quote:
, but he has had a standing offer of other tests involving other kinds of jitter FOR MONTHS to which he has not been able to response affirmitively for some reason.
Your memory is as bad as mine Arny . I absolutely asked you to create jitter tests that match measured profiles of real products. Here is the post, just a week after you post your jitter test files:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I thought we covered this already Arny. 30Hz only showed up in one of my measurements. Here is the graph again:



See, only the Pioneer has a sideband at 30 Hz. You can't run off with that one frequency and say it is "showed up repeatedly." You have other measurements that you are drawing this conclusion from?

The key learning about all of these measurements is that every device is different. What bleeds into the DAC is completely system specific as the above shows.

If we zoom into those measurement with narrower band FFT in Paul Miller's data we see more problems:



Not only is there no 30 Hz component but we have a *ton of jitter* components. The graph you post is at 1 Khz tone, at a specific level of 80 db and a single modulation frequency. That is not at all a model of what is going on here.

Here is another set:



For pete's sake, how can you guys with a straight face defend the graph on the right??? I mean the question is not what jitter it has, but what it doesn't! It has a ton of specific jitter components. Then it has that widening of the skirt due to narrow-band random jitter. Then it has those ripples in there. Everything other than a single spike is distortion (you can see the single spike on the S/PDIF measurements on the left).

Here is yet another profile:


Now we have a series of spikes going pretty high level of -75 dbfs. Their sum total is not -75 dbfs. Energy is additive.

Now, I am not saying the audio experience is this ugly. I am saying we can't trivialize this topic by creating one example "jitter" which only I and one other person ran and say, "oh, here are the results of jitter audibility." Or throw around snippets from a book that are not representative of the measurements we are discussing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arny
Furthermore I have offered to provide similar test files based on other jitter frequencies if people would agree to ABX them using any reasonable ABX comparator.
Thank you for the kind offer. I have provided the above examples. Please create the files with the completely profile of any of the above AVRs. Not just one frequency but the full profile.
You see the highlighted part of my post? I answered your question directly even though you claim here that I have not for "months." For your part, you did not come back with any other test files that would resemble real life products as I have explained above.

I also asked you for jitter measurements of your own Denon AVR to see if that has a single 30 Hz jitter component and you made an excuse for not being able to do that either.

Quote:
So when you see these elaborate discussions of jitter, they relate to something that has no adequately demonstrated audibility at the levels shown.
That is just a claim, just like someone saying one DAC sounds better than other. It is a dime a dozen. The facts we have is that you created an artificial test meant to create a negative outcome that you were sure I could not pass, but I did. You say that I did not give you a scenario to create and I did. I asked you for real life measurements of your own equipment and you did not supply. Last but not least, you said your hearing is so damaged as to not be able to participate in such tests.
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post #100 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 10:40 AM
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Hmm..., I thought I was expressing my own thoughts... Oh, that's right, you distort what people post here.
Quoted for the record.

Quote:
You mean you can hear the difference between expensive DACs you sell and much cheaper DACs found in AV receivers in level matched double blind test?
Is that what I said or is this a distorted version of what I said?

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post #101 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quoted for the record.


Is that what I said or is this a distorted version of what I said?
It's a question, not a distortion.

See the "?" at the end?
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post #102 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 11:04 AM
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Don't believe everything you see.
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post #103 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Your memory is as bad as mine Arny . I absolutely asked you to create jitter tests that match measured profiles of real products. Here is the post, just a week after you post your jitter test files:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
Thank you for the kind offer. I have provided the above examples. Please create the files with the completely profile of any of the above AVRs. Not just one frequency but the full profile.
You see the highlighted part of my post? I answered your question directly even though you claim here that I have not for "months." For your part, you did not come back with any other test files that would resemble real life products as I have explained above.
Thank you Amir for asking for something that was totally impossible to provide. you thus released me from complying with your request.

Please respond with a reasonable request if you actually want something from me. Better yet, I told you how to make your own files. If you want exactly what you want, then it should be up to you to provide it.
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Thank you Amir for asking for something that was totally impossible to provide.
Impossible for whom?

Quote:
you thus released me from complying with your request.
I made no request Arny. You asked me what profile of jitter to created and I answered. Despite that, you come and post this here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Amir will say that the test covered only a narrow kind of jitter and that iS true, but he has had a standing offer of other tests involving other kinds of jitter FOR MONTHS to which he has not been able to response affirmitively for some reason.
I did respond affirmatively. And the response was the most useful one: simulate the jitter of the products as measured. What you said here was in error, right?

Quote:
Please respond with a reasonable request if you actually want something from me. Better yet, I told you how to make your own files. If you want exactly what you want, then it should be up to you to provide it.
I asked you to show measurements of your Denon AVR to see how close your "jitter" test is to that. What was unreasonable about that? Do you not know how to measure DAC jitter? Or is than an impossible thing too?

The second thing was the results of yourself running the "jitter" DBT, bad or good. Is that impossible thing to do too?

As I explained, I did not ask you to create any files for me. You said you would and asked what kind: I said the real kind as measured, not some contrived version designed to generate negative outcomes. Now you say that is impossible but proceed to say that you have explained how I can do it?

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post #105 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by koturban View Post
It's a question, not a distortion.
As Arny would say, "this is a false claim, excluded middle and a strawman." He might even add, "it is appeal to authority."

Quote:
See the "?" at the end?
Is that what he wrote or a distorted version of what he wrote?


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post #106 of 129 Old 09-01-2014, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
As Arny would say, "this is a false claim, excluded middle and a strawman." He might even add, "it is appeal to authority."


Is that what he wrote or a distorted version of what he wrote?

Are you calling me a liar?
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Impossible for whom?

I did respond affirmatively. And the response was the most useful one: simulate the jitter of the products as measured.
Actually Amir what you demanded was and I quote: "Please create the files with the complete profile of any of the above AVRs. Not just one frequency but the full profile."

There are thousands of jitter products in those test results, most are zillions of dB below the others.

Obviously the person writing the spec above has no practical experience with simulations.

Please respond with a reasonable request if you actually want something from me. Better yet, I told you how to make your own files. If you want exactly what you want, then it should be up to you to provide it.
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Oh good lord. OP, quietly take your system and slink away while you still can!
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Oh good lord. OP, quietly take your system and slink away while you still can!
+1

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post #110 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Actually Amir what you demanded was and I quote: "Please create the files with the complete profile of any of the above AVRs. Not just one frequency but the full profile."
Good morning Arny. I repent:



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There are thousands of jitter products in those test results, most are zillions of dB below the others. Obviously the person writing the spec above has no practical experience with simulations.
You said it. Oh wait!

As always it goes without saying Arny that your immense technical knowledge in such matters dwarfs all of us combined let alone poor me. With that aside, a simulator's value depends on how close it approximates the real device. Let's refer to that bible of the Internet known as Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.[1] The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors/functions of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.

If there are "thousands" of jitter components yet your current "simulation" has only one 30 Hz component, then we can conclude that your model is not approximating the real system.

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Please respond with a reasonable request if you actually want something from me. Better yet, I told you how to make your own files. If you want exactly what you want, then it should be up to you to provide it.
Thanks for calling it a request now instead of demand. What is a reasonable request Arny and why should I be helping you to make your point in this regard?

Kindly reminding you, you did not answer why the Denon AVR measurements that you own is not forthcoming. Or the double blind tests that I posted earlier. These are both reasonable requests, no?
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post #111 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 07:40 AM
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OP, I suggest you joint and read http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/
Lots of people here are just too dogmatic in their beliefs
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post #112 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post
Let's refer to that bible of the Internet known as Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.[1] The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics or behaviors/functions of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time.

If there are "thousands" of jitter components yet your current "simulation" has only one 30 Hz component, then we can conclude that your model is not approximating the real system.
That's just it, there is not just one real system, there are a number of them. The real systems should probably be investigated in order of prevalence in actual consumer installations. The 30 Hz component was chosen because it showed up in your data, and it should be very prevalent since it matches up with a very common video framing frequency (30 Hz).

If one reads and understands the Wikipedia article above one might even realize the need for the development of a simplified model.

Quote:
If there are "thousands" of jitter components yet your current "simulation" has only one 30 Hz component, then we can conclude that your model is not approximating the real system.
Asked and answered. Most of the the numerous components are dozens of dB below just a few far more significant components. This is may even be an obvious path to another simplified model.
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post #113 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 07:48 AM
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OP, I suggest you joint and read http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/
Lots of people here are just too dogmatic in their beliefs
I clicked the link and I saw nothing but a page of brief and content free PR items about allegedly new high end audio gear with questionable performance.

I tore the link apart and found a list of forum threads.

So far, so useless. :-(

Can you provide a link to something useful?
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post #114 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 08:36 AM
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Another thread trashed by know-it-alls!
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post #115 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 09:31 AM
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So far, so useless. :-(

Can you provide a link to something useful?
And the discussion here is now better? This has turned into yet another day of arnyk and amirm locked in mortal combat. It's like watching Norm and Cliff. How the two of you could possibly believe that this serves the needs of the OP who started this thread--instead of being all about your personal enjoyment of arguing with each other--is beyond me
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post #116 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
I clicked the link and I saw nothing but a page of brief and content free PR items about allegedly new high end audio gear with questionable performance.

I tore the link apart and found a list of forum threads.

So far, so useless. :-(

Can you provide a link to something useful?
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you. Let the OP make up his own mind. There is an entire forum discussing a whole range of DACs.

Next time I need a subject matter expert who has evaluated all the different DACs on that forum, I'll be sure to reach out to you

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post #117 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 10:50 AM
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I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you.
What contest? I thought you just screwed up the links. I couldn't find any relevance to the topic at hand in where they led.

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Let the OP make up his own mind. There is an entire forum discussing a whole range of DACs.
There are dozens of forums discussing DACs, mostly one as useless as the next. Two words: Sighted Evaluations.
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post #118 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 11:11 AM
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And the discussion here is now better? This has turned into yet another day of arnyk and amirm locked in mortal combat. It's like watching Norm and Cliff. How the two of you could possibly believe that this serves the needs of the OP who started this thread--instead of being all about your personal enjoyment of arguing with each other--is beyond me
We did serve the needs of the OP. I wrote an answer directed at him, he appreciated that post and followed up with me in private. He sent me PM with the units in question, I researched the information for him and provided the results for him to decide.

If you want to pick on people, I suggest doing so when people say nothing but random nonsense. Lest you think that is not what I really wrote, but the distorted version of what I wrote! And please don't call me a liar.

You want to clean house, you start there. Report those posts and we will take a major leap toward more constructive discussion. Until then, I have to deal with any and all people who get attracted to these topics like flies to you know what. You can't change Arny and I. But you can change what you do. The above post is not it. What I suggested is.
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post #119 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 12:01 PM
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We did serve the needs of the OP. I wrote an answer directed at him, he appreciated that post and followed up with me in private. He sent me PM with the units in question, I researched the information for him and provided the results for him to decide.
Perhaps if the two of you had not coopted the OP's thread for Episode #317 of Arnyk and Amirm Do Battle (I'm surely understimating that number), the OP might have been more comfortable asking you that directly in what was once HIS thread.

Just sayin'.

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post #120 of 129 Old 09-02-2014, 12:46 PM
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Perhaps if the two of you had not coopted the OP's thread for Episode #317 of Arnyk and Amirm Do Battle (I'm surely understimating that number), the OP might have been more comfortable asking you that directly in what was once HIS thread.

Just sayin'.
Well, OP got hit with a 2x4 on his nose in post #7 :
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Ditto for every other kind of audio component including power cables. Just because there are bigger fools does not mean that you have to be one.
I was no where in this thread then. My first post did not come until #41 . OP created the thread on August 23rd and my post was 5 days later, on August 28th. So your prognoses is not correct. The coopting happened because there are a group of people who roam the forum and try to turn every question into one of these argumentative threads. My presence was not needed at all.

If you care about OP's in general getting their questions answered, and no battle created, then you need to do as I mentioned and report posts that get personal, call people fools, etc. Just sayin'....
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