Pro-Ject Turntables (HUM) AND CAN IT BE FIXED - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 6 Old 09-05-2014, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Pro-Ject Turntables (HUM) AND CAN IT BE FIXED

Like some other good meaning folks on here, I want to step up and try and make everything crystal clear. Once you read my post, you won't need to even consider an inexpensive Pro-ject turntable, especially the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. I received my Debut Carbon today, 9/4/2014, and as I expected the hum was terrible. Like many people, I simply refused to believe a company like Sumiko/Pro/Ject could continue to sell a turntable with such audible hum, it's beyond reason. To be extremely clear, this is motor induced hum, it's not ground loop 60 cycle hum, it is mechanical AC motor noise making it back to the arm and cartridge, and you will CLEARLY hear this annoying hum the second the stylus hits the record, between songs, during quiet passages, and at the end of the record, as the stylus tracks out, it's terrible. The fixes referenced in this thread and others DO NOT WORK, at least not for me, and certainly not 100%, and who in the heck wants to hear ANY HUM? Today I spoke directly to Sumiko in Berkeley California, and you can be sure, they know all about this problem, but don't want to make a big deal over it, and I believe that is because many people who purchase a $399.00 turntable don't really realize IT'S NOT SUPPOSE TO HUM, and after all, you only hear it during soft musical passages, also when you first place the stylus on the record, and when the recording is over! Before I get into the real meat of this situation, let me tell you who I have spoken to. My first contact was Bill Rudolph, the Analog Manager from Sumiko in Berkeley. Bill's fix, send it back to the company you bought it from, he really does not want to address the design flaw with the AC motors at all, the less said about this by him, the better. You have to remember, this would affect many thousands of turntables, not just the Debut Carbon, as you will see in the information below. To recall or offer to repair these tables would cost a fortune and they have kept this problem under wraps for several years, why change courses now, right? The second person I spoke to was just very nice, however, he can't say too much either, Paul Greene, the Manager of Sumiko's service department. Paul instructed me to totally remove the two screws on either side of the motor, where the Sorbothane grommets are, which I did and it made the hum about 30% worse, so, with or without the screws there, the hum is terrible at best and horrible at worst. If you don't know, Pro-Ject has "quietly" redesigned this entire Debut Carbon turntable, and it's about to make it's way to the United States, and all of this was brought about by the hum in the present AC tables. The company will be incorporating a brand new DC motor, so I simply asked both Paul and Bill to please send me that one, and I will send you my AC motor model, which they would not do. They simply wanted me to return the product to the vendor and be done with me, which was my only option. I'm going to bet literally thousands of analog users are stuck with tables that hum, and probably many of them just don't realize what they have or just think it's suppose to hum!

Ok, here is where the rubber meets the road. Forget all the fixes you have read, and go to this link and you will be completely educated on how this hum can be fixed, why it is happening, everything you have wanted to know about why this discount table hums. This is by far the most comprehensive article I have read on the Pro-Ject Humming problems, it's excellent. Simply copy and paste the below link in your browser.

http://www.theapplechap.webspace.vir...ng_rumble.html

Once you have read the article and know that Henley Designs Ltd, the UK distributor for Project in Oxfordshire DID design a fix for this problem, you will then find out the fix is not for the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. You have to go to their website to find this out, so we are still in the dark, with no way to the light, other than enjoy the loud hum or hope they have fixed the hum with the new model, just now making it to the United States, the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon (DC) model, which they absolutely would not send to me as a swap.

Speaking directly to the people that know, the Manager of Service for Sumiko, Paul Greene and the Manager of Analog Products, Bill Rudolph, THERE IS NO FIX FOR THE STANDARD AC VERSION OF THE DEBUT CARBON $399.00 TURNTABLE, NONE, IT'S GOING TO HUM, PERIOD, AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO GET INVOLVED, other than tell the customer to send it back as this is a VERY HOT POTATO, to say the very least, a great deal of money at stake here!

When you read the long, informative article, you will clearly see what is happening, but when you go as far as I did, you will see, there is NO kit made to reduce or eliminate hum on the AC version of the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon turntable, and that came directly from the Henley Designs Ltd website!

I know the Debut carbon is a cool looking little turntable, but unless you can live with hum, something I don't even have on a $40.00 Stanton turntable, I advise you very strongly to stay away from the Pro-ject carbon turntable, and hey, it's not the only Pro-Ject model that is plagued with motor generated hum, there are several. I would not touch a Pro-ject turntable under $2,000.00 for anything, as they are just not engineered correctly, and I have seen and heard this first hand. I trust this will help people make an informed decision, it's a great deal of trouble to receive a turntable, unpack it, level everything, set it up, and then have it sound like a fan motor is running in the background.

Happy listening!

Litejazz

Last edited by Litejazz; 09-05-2014 at 09:57 AM.
Litejazz is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 6 Old 09-06-2014, 11:55 AM
Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Well the new ProJect DC versions of the Project Carbon and others are now out so presumably they are improved in that area and don't suffer from the AC related motor noise to which your refer.

But as in my thread on the subject I worked out a 50 cent solution that works perfectly for me and others who have had hum issues with old AC motor versions.

The funny thing is I have yet to read a single professional review that mentions hum at all so it would seem that the older AC design are inconsistent; some have no hum from the factory, some with mild hum from the factory that can be fixed with simple dampers under the motor screws and/or RCA plug swaps and some that have such severe hum no "cure" seems to work.

Sorry to hear you got one that fell into the latter category.

BTW, hum was ALWAYS worse with the dust cover in the open position.
gajCA is offline  
post #3 of 6 Old 09-06-2014, 12:26 PM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,844
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked: 710
Can it be fixed. Sure. Just dupe you records to digital files and put the thing in a closet. I have no idea why vinyl records are a fad currently. We old timers gave them up happily years ago. I have three turntables in my closet.
FMW is offline  
post #4 of 6 Old 09-06-2014, 12:39 PM
Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Can it be fixed. Sure. Just dupe you records to digital files and put the thing in a closet. I have no idea why vinyl records are a fad currently. We old timers gave them up happily years ago. I have three turntables in my closet.
My daughter has $5,000 in her record collection.

Her and her b/f never listened critically to music before I gave them one of my Turntables.

The kids just like it and I can't fault them for that even though they were raised on CD's and MP3's.

For me, like you, I use the TT to digitize my old record collection.

I've even used the system I bought for digitizing, (DAK 2800-PC), to transfer my collection of DVD Concert Videos to WAV so I can listen in my iTunes rotation and in the car.

So for you and I it's mostly "been there done that" but for kids it's huge fun...especially if they are using "legacy" equipment like my old Concept CM1's and Velodyne SPL1000r, my old Denon receiver and my dad's old Revox 795TT.

I offered her my dad's old McIntosh C28 preamp and MC2125 amp but, and you're going to find this funny, they don't want them because they are quite large but mostly because it doesn't come with a remote control!!

I find that hilarious considering the lack of convenience Vinyl offers.
gajCA is offline  
post #5 of 6 Old 09-08-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Lots of humming to go around

I would like to follow up on the post made by gajCA. I read the fixes outlined, including the .50 cent fixes, and I tried them, as I did not want to send my carbon back to the vendor, that is the last thing I wanted to do. That fix did not work for me, can't give a reason, it just didn't, which is why I investigated more closely. If that .50 cent fix worked, what does that say for Pro-Ject and Sumiko, that they would not incorporate your fix into their turntables, not to mention they have the expertise and tooling to incorporate a much more professional fix, but HAVE ELECTED DO TO NOTHING. If you will look at the Helnley Design fix, it's much more comprehensive, especially using the rounded belt with less surface area and additional Sorbothane grommets to absorb more motor rumble, even requiring longer screws, which they furnish with their kit, however they said that kit is not applicable to the Debut Carbon.

You made an excellent point in mentioning the fact that this turntable gets all of these reviews and no one mentions the hum, which only a deaf man would not hear. The hum/buzz on mine was so outstanding, I heard it the second the stylus touched the lead in groove of the record, and I looked the motor over carefully, it looked perfect, it did not appear to be defective in any way. There is no possible way these reviewers are not hearing this hum. I have seen at least one article that said for "casual" listening this is a good turntable, but he did mention the hum, but for most part, you are 100% correct, they simply turn a blind ear to the hum/buzz. THE KEY TO REALLY GETTING RID OF THE HUM IS COMPLETE MOTOR ISOLATION, AND IT APPEARS PRO-JECT IS SIMPLY UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO INVEST IN GETTING THIS DONE, AT LEAST ON THE AC VERSION.

In regard to the dust cover, my dust cover was never even placed on the turntable and the hum/buzz was terrible. As I mentioned, the head service manager instructed me to take the mounting screws out and try that, and the hum was about 30% louder. I have an old 20 year old Stanton T.60 turntable I found in the basement, in a plastic container. I cleaned all the funk off of it and bought a nice digital stylus gauge, installed my old Shure V15 V MR cartridge, and there is no audible hum, absolutely none, and that is turning the volume up to ear shattering levels during "quiet passages" and no hum and this turntable is worth about $30.00!

Sumiko could have easily let me forward my new turntable to them for evaluation if they were interested in WHY a brand new Debut Carbon turntable bought in September 2014 is still humming and simply swapped me for the new DC version. That would be taking care of the customer, but they DID NOTHING, because they know these things hum, they know mine is not an isolated problem. It's much easier and much more cost effective for them to tell me, just send it back to the vendor, which is the only option I had. To think someone has to mess around with installing washers from a hardware store to salvage their turntable is beyond ridiculous. I would bet the new DC version of the Debut Carbon will cost more than $399.00, anyone want to bet on that??

I do believe many of these $399.00 tables are being sold to young people that possibly don't have very good equipment or speakers and they just don't know any better, they think the hum is part of the package. They are not aware that a properly designed turntable will not have a motor that introduces any hum, buzz or rumble into the audible mix, that is turntable 101, but as I have said, there is a great deal of money out in the field, with all these humming turntables, and Pro-ject has chosen to turn a blind eye to the problem in hopes that most of their customers are able to turn a blind ear to the problem, or just don't know any better, but I'm not one of those customers. One thing these turntables are good for and that would be the new (Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Humming Meditation) found on the Internet, just Google Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Humming Meditation and off you go!

Last edited by Litejazz; 09-08-2014 at 09:25 AM.
Litejazz is offline  
post #6 of 6 Old 09-08-2014, 01:18 PM
Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litejazz View Post
In regard to the dust cover, my dust cover was never even placed on the turntable and the hum/buzz was terrible.
Humor me, put the dust cover on and close it while listening to the hum

On my TT the hum is worse with the dust cover up or not in place at all.

With the dust cover in the down position, with the needle at the end of the record in silence, you can hear faint hum only at a volume level where the music is so loud it can't be tolerated.

Also, try swapping out your RCA cables.

Let us know if either of those things make a difference.

If they don't, and the addition of the urethane washers don't, then, sadly, unlike most of us, you got a complete lemon.
gajCA is offline  
Reply 2 Channel Audio

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off