AVS Forum banner

New to the forum with a question

673 views 19 replies 11 participants last post by  dannylightning 
#1 ·
Hi. I've been fascinated with the idea of high-end audio/video equipment for years but haven't been in the position financially (until recently) to really consider becoming serious. I've read a bunch of material, ogled the specs of nice equipment and planned out purchases. However, I've held back because I'm concerned that I simply won't truly be able to hear much (any?) difference between my entry level(+) components and better components. My hearing is somewhat damaged from loud music abuse when young as well as 30 years of motorcycle riding, the first 3rd of which involved riding with no hearing protection beyond wearing a helmet. I'm certainly not to the point where I require a hearing aid but frequently do not hear things which my S.O. can detect.

Are my concerns warranted?

Current audio equipment (ignoring video for the moment), such as it is:
Yamaha HTR-5640 receiver purchased 10 years or so ago
Pioneer PD-M423 CD changer purchased 20+ years ago
Polk Audio Monitor60 Series II Floorstanding speakers purchased about 1 year ago
MartinLogan Dynamo 300 Subwoofer puchased several months ago

I realize that I've asked an impossible question. However, I'm guessing that other folks have gone through the same soul searching that I am. I would love to go out and buy a Marantz AV8801 and MM8077, for example, but I'm afraid I would end up feeling empty when I couldn't detect any sonic difference between the output from those and that from my Yamaha receiver.

Thanks in advance for any insights!
Uncle Lumpy
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Holy smokes, the only reason to buy that $4,000 11.2 Processor and Amp pair would be if you were going to go ass over tea kettle into surround sound IMHO.

Your current amp delivers 75 watts to all of its channels but is obsolete in the sense that it does not have HDMI inputs/outputs and Digital Surround Sound processing.

If you're sticking to stereo I'm not sure you'd really notice a huge difference between 150 watts vs. your current 75 watts per channel.

And you can certainly buy a quality 150 watt amp/processor combo, or AVR, for much less money.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the welcome and replies! See my responses below...



Good point about the Marantz gear...it was more an example than something I was actually considering. At this point I can't see a full-blown surround setup, but I won't rule it out either.

OP, IMO your should consider spending your money on a good quality AVR (with pre-outs if you feel you might want to add a power amp later on) and upgrading your speakers and sub.

For the speakers, you need to audition as many different brands & models as possible in order to know what you like and what you feel is an improvement over your current speakers.

For the sub(s), you might want to indicate:
- the size of the space your set-up is in (l x w x h; sealed or open to other spaces);
- what your budget for sub(s) is; and,
- what limitations (# of subs, box size, etc.), if any, you have.
I like the idea of an AVR with pre-outs. I certainly plan to "walk" before I try to "run" since I'm still not sure if I'd hear benefits to any upgrades made. I'm not unhappy with what I hear now from my system, but I really don't know if advances in technology are such that something like an upgrade to my 20+ year old CD changer would lead to audible benefits, for example.

As far as my space...I've been granted permission to use my computer room by SWMBO. The room is 16 x 10 x 8 and is sealed other than for one doorway, so you can see I don't have much to work with and do not need massive speakers and such to saturate the room with sound. And I'll say that my musical tastes are pretty much all over the place, from classical to jazz to Metallica. I have Pat Benatar "hitting me with her best shot" at the moment.

Welcome! Uncle Lumpy-

prior to buying anything, go out to your local dealer/retailer and listen, listen, and listen to the various gear. If you do not have a local dealer/retailer, find one in the next closest place! :)
Always a good idea! I've been lurking here for awhile and have seen that advice repeated more times than I can count...:) I certainly don't plan to fall into the "more money than brains" category (unless my posts here have already demonstrated my membership in that club). :D

Again, thanks for the comments!

Lumpy
 
#3 ·
OP, IMO your should consider spending your money on a good quality AVR (with pre-outs if you feel you might want to add a power amp later on) and upgrading your speakers and sub.

(There's nothing wrong with being an "audiophile" - especially if you have more money than brains - and buying high end components (amps, DACs, transports, etc.) and cables (speaker wire, interconnects, power cables, etc.), but you're likely to realize a considerably poorer return on investment.)

For the speakers, you need to audition as many different brands & models as possible in order to know what you like and what you feel is an improvement over your current speakers.

For the sub(s), you might want to indicate:
- the size of the space your set-up is in (l x w x h; sealed or open to other spaces);
- what your budget for sub(s) is; and,
- what limitations (# of subs, box size, etc.), if any, you have.
 
#6 ·
Lumpy:

Upgrading your amplification and CD player will probably* not result in better sound, no matter how good your hearing is. The major determinants of sound quality are your speakers, the room you put them in, and the recordings you listen to. That's where you need to put your attention.

*Assuming your equipment is still in good working order, of course.
 
#8 ·
+1. That Yamaha receiver probably sounds just fine and has plenty of power. The only advantages to a new one would be features - HDMI inputs, room correction/EQ, things like that. If you want to upgrade for features and convenience, it makes sense. But I wouldn't expect much difference in sound quality, except possibly in the room correction/EQ/subwoofer intregration areas.
 
#7 · (Edited)
I suggest the following, for starters:

A NAD T758 receiver ($999)- an excellent receiver that will sound much better than what you have, with plenty of power to drive almost any speakers (at least twice the power of your old receiver, which will only deliver about 30W per channel running 5 channels, or 75W for two channels only). This receiver is IMO a bargain at this price, because you could spend more money for a Yama/Onk/Pio receiver and get a lot less performance and sound quality. People who have owned the other stuff and then bought one of these RAVE about how much better it sounds. The people who say one receiver sounds the same as all the others are the ones that REALLY have a hearing problem.

An OPPO BDP-103 player, which is an excellent-sounding CD/SACD player, plus BluRay too, with an excellent DAC (only $499). The sound quality of that old player with its primitive DAC chips is really poor compared to the latest very powerful DAC chips.

A pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BX-6 speakers, for $800 (these will sound WAYYYY better than the speakers you have); plus possibly a MA Bronze Center speaker (around $400).

With the above system you will have some very high-quality sound, which is NEVER going to happen with any of that old equipment, which is unfortunately all rather poor.

Before you would get the most out of the expensive pre/pro and amp you were talking about, you would need to spend at least $3000-4000 on a set of speakers and around $1200 for a top-quality player.

Do not concern yourself too much about the hearing loss; most hearing loss is above 5 Khz, while less than 1% of all musical content is above 5 Khz. The very highest note a violin can play, for example, is well below 5 Khz.
 
#14 ·
I suggest the following, for starters:

A NAD T758 receiver ($999)- an excellent receiver that will sound much better than what you have, with plenty of power to drive almost any speakers (at least twice the power of your old receiver, which will only deliver about 30W per channel running 5 channels, or 75W for two channels only). This receiver is IMO a bargain at this price, because you could spend more money for a Yama/Onk/Pio receiver and get a lot less performance and sound quality. People who have owned the other stuff and then bought one of these RAVE about how much better it sounds. The people who say one receiver sounds the same as all the others are the ones that REALLY have a hearing problem.
Funny you say that, I've owned NAD components for absolute decades, amps, 2 channel receivers and my last one was a 5.1 AVR, the highly regarded NAD T773 which cost a fortune but then all the digital audio inputs failed and finally the analog inputs failed.

Nevertheless I always thought they sounded great and in fact right now I'm listening to my secondary system with my ancient NAD 7250PE which operates perfectly.

That being said, I replaced the NAD AVR with a new Denon HDMI 1912 AVR.

When I bought that NAD AVR I think I paid $1,700 or so, almost $3,000 in today's money, the Denon was like $500 a couple of years ago.

Without question the Denon sounds at least as good if not better than the NAD ever did playing in bypass stereo over my Usher speakers at similar volume levels.

I was shocked, frankly.
 
#9 · (Edited)
In all honesty, I think the weakest link in your system is the Polk Monitor 60. Not much at their original price, but they went on deep discounts somewhat recently and at the new much lower price were something of a bargain.

Also, you can hear you system now can't you? Do you like what you hear?


As someone else said, really no need to go as far as the Marantz Pre-Amp/Processor and Power Amps. It is your money, but that is considerable overkill unless you have a dedicated Home Cinema room.

The Marantz SR7008 is a pretty fine highly rated amp at about $1600 -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642SR7008/Marantz-SR7008.html?tp=179

The newer Marantz SR7009 ($2000) is currently out of stock at Crutchfields but will certainly be returning soon, and should be available from countless other places.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642SR7009/Marantz-SR7009.html?tp=179

And there are many other amps in the roughly $1500 to $2500 range from a variety of brands.

The Marantz AV8801 Pre-Amp/Processor alone is $2000 plus the necessary amps.

The matching 7-channel Marantz Power Amp is $2400.

Though that is very much your choice. Myself, I would consider Emotiva or Parasound Power amps, use a 2-channel stereo power amp on the Front channels and a 5-channel power amp to fill out a total of 7 channels.

Still, your money.

Myself I think a more modest amp, like the SR7009 and some good speakers would be a better choice. If you listen to music and want crystal clear speakers, there are several options to choose from. We would need more money on your budget and size limitations.

A system based around the Martin Logan Motion 60XT speakers or possibly the Motion 40 speakers might work for you -

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/martinl...wood/8341019.p?id=1219325221363&skuId=8341019

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/martinl...each/5922256.p?id=1218705946671&skuId=5922256

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/martinl...wood/8343017.p?id=1219325225858&skuId=8343017

All price as EACH.

One assumes you have lost high frequency response in your hearing, in that case, perhaps Klipsch with Horn Mid/Tweeters. These really cut through the clutter and are very crisp present speakers -

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...1312008135.p?id=mp1312008135&skuId=1312008135

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/klipsch...1311692519.p?id=mp1311692519&skuId=1311692519

These are just to give you some sense of the possibilities. There are countless other speakers to consider. But like I said, this should give you some sense of the possibilities.

A lot of it hinges on the space you have available and the size of the room. Smaller room generally call for smaller speakers. And of course, your available budget.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the input everyone! I have a lot of reading, learning and thinking to do still. I'm not really unhappy with the sound from my present system, but then I really don't know if I'm missing something.

With regard to the Oppo BDP-103 vs my current 25+ year old Pioneer CD changer...is it that the Oppo will be able to extract more info that is present on a CD, information that my Pioneer is unable to extract? Or is it that the Oppo does a better job converting the 1's and 0's into something audible than does my Pioneer? Just part of the learning process...

Thanks again!
Lumpy
 
#11 ·
With regard to the Oppo BDP-103 vs my current 25+ year old Pioneer CD changer...is it that the Oppo will be able to extract more info that is present on a CD, information that my Pioneer is unable to extract? Or is it that the Oppo does a better job converting the 1's and 0's into something audible than does my Pioneer? Just part of the learning process...
Take a look at this post. Also, not all posters are knowledgeable on the subject they post about. As internet is full of misinformation, it's important to filter them out.
 
#12 ·
With regard to the Oppo BDP-103 vs my current 25+ year old Pioneer CD changer...is it that the Oppo will be able to extract more info that is present on a CD, information that my Pioneer is unable to extract?
No.

Or is it that the Oppo does a better job converting the 1's and 0's into something audible than does my Pioneer?
Also no.

The advantage of the Oppo is that it plays other kinds of media than just CDs, including greater-than-16-bit media. But if you're playing CDs, you get the same 16 bits whatever machine you use. Reading and converting 16 bits was pretty much optimized by the time your old CD player was made.
 
#13 ·
OK, thanks mcnarus and spkr...unless I start buying greater-than-16-bit media there really isn't much point in updating my 25+ year old warhorse. Good to know! Having said that, I have thought about getting into Classical concerts on Blu-ray at which point I'd need to buy a Blu-ray player...

Thanks!
Lumpy
 
#15 · (Edited)
A good amp will make a difference but I am not sure exactly how much, I have never owned a really high end amp. I have a 2 channel denon that cost me around 300 bucks from what I remember, and I have A Cambridge amp that was around 700 bucks or something like that, they both sound very good, the denon is a little bit more harsh, when I adjust the bass and treble controls on the denon I can hear a pretty drastic difference going from max to minimum, on my Cambridge the tone controls do not do much at all bu its over all a bit smoother sounding and a little more clean, so that is the one I am using right now.

I have also had these brands of amps, harmon kardon, pioneer, Yamaha ( did not like at all ) onkyo (a older and newer model, the old one sounded good, the new one did not )

Amps do make a difference. when it comes to analog audio, audio cables make a little difference ( allot of people will say they do not ) but I do not think they make a giant difference, but i can hear a slight differnce when switching between different cables, I cant really say a high end set of cables is that much better, I do feel you might get a little bit more base/warmth with a good set of cables over a cheap set and not all expensive cable are good. like monster cables are not anythin special but hey cost allot, audio quest cables are OK if you get the lowest priced ones ( evergreen ) the next step ( golden gate ) sounds bright to me and I do not like that and they are expensive. I just ordered a set of bluejeans LC-1 RCA cables to try out. allot of people seem to like those.

what ever you have plaing the music will probably not make much of a difference unless you talking a really high quality unit vs a bottom of the barrel unit. if you are streaming audio that may be a different story but playing a CD vs streaming a flac file on my sonos connect, I cant hear any difference in sound quality if i pump up the bass and treble sliders on the sonos 2 marks past center. when I do that they sound identical. both are using the same set of RCA cables, I do not have the highest quality CD player but it probably does not matter it sounds fine.


speakers will make a huge difference compared to anything else..

I have always liked polk audio speakers, even the lower end polk's sound quite good for music IMO. my favorite speakers are mirage bipolar speakers but those are very hard to find these days, their omni polar speakers are still around some places but I think the treble is a bit harsh on those but they still sound great if you can get over that, there a very smooth and warm speaker but cymbal hits can be kind of piercing. I also really like energy speakers as well you get a loot of speaker for the money. I have heard some NHT speakers that sounded great. B&W speakers are quite good if you like darker sounding speaker but they are very dark soudning compard to most other speakers I have heard.

I have a set of definateve speakers that i really tried to like but do not. just listened to some really expensive definatives 2 weeks ago at the audio store and they sounded allot like mine,, i do not like them at all compare to some other speakrs.

I am using a set of polk TSX 330T right now, i prefer them over my other speakers, your monitor 60's are probably slightly better than the polk speakers I am using.

there are alot of other brands out there that I have not heard, If I could get my hands on a nice set of mirage 595is speakers again i would be in heaven. the foam was starting to come off the drivers after many years and if mine and one of the crossovers decided to burn up in one of them so I got rid of them.


Everything makes a difference, speakers will make the biggest difference, next biggest difference will be your amp IMO which will probably not make a huge difference but I think it will make a descent amount of difference. you may prefer the sound of one over the other but I am not sure the overall sound quality is going to be that much better, each amp will just sound a little different but they all seem to sound pretty good over all unless you have a really lousy amp. next will be your analog cables IMO, I do feel a good cable can make the sound a little smoother or can make your stereo sound slightly Warmer or brighter, and add a bit more bass IMO ( digital cables probably dont make any difference ) but analog cables seem to make a little differnce, I would never spend more than 50 or 60 bucks on a cable. some people say cables do not do anything, but I have actually bought expensive cables in the past, and some of them actually sounded worse than a cheap set, some of them sounded slightly better than a cheap set.

I also just ordered some 10 gauge speaker wire which I have not got yet. it was like 30 bucks for 30 feet. thicker wire is said to carry more bass so i wanted to try out some fat speakers wires and see if it does any thing, I am not really expecting to hear a difference but I hope I do.
 
#16 ·
Everything makes a difference, speakers will make the biggest difference, next biggest difference will be your amp IMO which will probably not make a huge difference but I think it will make a descent amount of difference. you may prefer the sound of one over the other but I am not sure the overall sound quality is going to be that much better, each amp will just sound a little different but they all seem to sound pretty good over all unless you have a really lousy amp. next will be your analog cables IMO, I do feel a good cable can make the sound a little smoother or can make your stereo sound slightly Warmer or brighter, and add a bit more bass IMO ( digital cables probably dont make any difference ) but analog cables seem to make a little differnce, I would never spend more than 50 or 60 bucks on a cable.
What about room acoustics?
 
#18 · (Edited)
If we get into cables we are going to get into endless circular ranting that serve no purpose and completely distracts from the Central Topic.

Yes, get nice cable (& wire), but equally do not get too carried away. It is your budget, and your life, but while you need not be compelled to go with the cheapest option, neither should you remotely go with the most expensive option. Despite the ranting and raving of the contrarians, you are not forced to buy the absolute cheapest wire and cable you can find. Find something reasonable and suitable that is not excessively price, and you will be fine.

If you want to discuss Wire and Cable, let us know. This can be a very low cost proposition, but if you want nicer looking cable and wire, especially in Front, as long as you are restrained, get what you like.

It seem we are heading toward a Surround System that also does an excellent job with music.

For me, that mean big speakers in front. If Surround Sound, they it means a higher end AV Receiver, meaning $1500 and above. If you really want to go full Marantz Pre-Amp/Processor, that would certainly be a first rate system, if you don't mind spending the money. Myself, I would rather have a Stereo Power Amp on the Front Left/Right speakers, and a mutli-channel covering the rest, but that's just me.

The AV Receivers I suggested are highly reviewed and do an excellent job for movies, and their music performance is also highly rated, though there certainly are other amp to consider.

Depending on your final budget, the speaker I suggested would do a great job. Though, again, if you can give us a budget, there are others to consider - Bower-Wilkins CM, Monitor Audio Silver, Monitor Audio Gold, Focal, Dali, and many others. I just gets down to the specifics of what you are trying to accomplish and what you are willing to spend.

If you have high frequency hearing loss, as most people with hearing loss do, then it might be wise to find a place to audition the Klipsch RF series. I think a full 5.1 system would be about $5000 plus the $2000 Marantz AV Receiver would make an excellent system.

Though, my preference might be for Martin Logan Motion 60XT, which are expensive, but not crazy expensive. I'm not finding any Martin Logan 5.1 Bundles, so you will just have to put together a package yourself.

The Front Left/Right Motion 60XT with tiwn 8" bass drivers each run between $1500 and $1600 each depending on the finish. The Center, is a hefty $900. Then we look at rear speakers with tend to not be that expensive, and at Subwoofer with can run in the $500 to $1500 range. The size and cost of the Sub would depend on the size of your room.

The Motion 40 still sound very good, though a bit smaller, and priced at about $1000 each.

Given the price range you are implying, I don't think you have to worry, anything you choose is going to do a excellent job for movies or music. Even if you choose some of the lower cost options I suggested, you are still up high enough to insure good sound.

On the issue of Acoustics, you are spending considerable money on equipment hear. It does no good to spend that money only to compromise the sound quality with bad acoustics.

To some extent it depends on the room. If this is a dedicated Home Cinema, that absolutely add some acoustic panels. We can advices you on that, and while not free basic acoustic treatments need not cost a fortune. They can be very reasonable, especially if you shop around, and even cheaper if you are willing to do it yourself.

In a lounge or living room, while acoustic treatments can be placed discretely, they are a little harder to hide, and might seem a bit more out of place. Though may living rooms, with general clutter, carpets, curtains, etc... are not acoustically all that bad. But bare reflective walls and ceilings will compromise sound.

Steve/bluewizard
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top