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Vinyl is a deep, dark, scary rabbit hole...

11K views 246 replies 83 participants last post by  Dustin James99 
#1 ·
...but, I'm considering getting into it anyway.


After pointing out that my birthday is coming up, I have secured a $400 WAF budget to purchase a turntable and phono preamp.


Although the Marantz TT42P with it's built in preamp looks like an attractive package at ~$350, I foresee it's lack of adjustability not playing well with my need to constantly tweak and twiddle with my system. Besides, I read that it also has a cheap pair of RCA leads soldered to the main board. Again, attractive features....but something about it just screams "don't do it."


My other option is to pick up a higher quality used turntable, and a higher quality used phono preamp. I have absolutely no experience with turntables, so I don't really know what I'm looking for. However, I would be willing to give the Parasound Zphono unit a go since I love my Halo amp and believe Parasound makes quality products across the board.


Am I approaching this correctly?
 
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#3 ·
I'm brand new to vinyl.


I've seen a few of the Parasound Zphonos go on Ebay and Audiogon for $100-$200 or so, so it could still work for me I think, especially if I can find one on the lower end of that range.


I'm fully aware that $400 is not a lot to allocate to getting into vinyl for the first time. My main goal is to either buy something I'll be satisfied with for a couple years (yeah right), or at least buy something I can easily sell at not much of a loss when its time to upgrade. That's why I lean towards buying used, but I'm quite serious when I say that I know very little about turntables.
 
#9 ·
Some people can listen to something and enjoy it without worrying about where the sound originates. A few clicks and pops aren't the end of the World, although if the noise is bad enough, it's not enjoyable. However, a decent setup and albums that are in very good condition can sound better than many would think.

Digital isn't universally better. It's more quiet, it's certainly more convenient but as far as the sound, it has deficiencies and negatives. Vinyl has its own limitations and problems, but it can sound excellent.

Mis-information? Show some.
 
#7 ·
"Hearing bias" aka youre enjoying the wrong thing, stop it!!
If you are looking for separate amp and tt, id say start with a cheaper standalone phono pre that you can upgrade later. My real suggestion though would be to get an all in one TT like a Pro-Ject and sell it on craigslist when you have the funds for the setup you really want
 
#10 · (Edited)
I have an Audio Technica LP1240-USB with an AT95E cartridge, mainly for listening to vinyl that my parents left me. I just don't think it's worth it to buy new vinyl or super expensive carts and turntables. Something like the LP120 or LP1240 are perfectly decent tables. At $20-30 a pop, I could go buy a good CD and have the same sound every time with no surface noise. I hear people go on and on about how vinyl sounds better than a CD, but I just don't hear it. If I have to spend thousands of dollars to get a good vinyl setup, then forget it, it ain't worth it to me. So it's more than a rabbit hole, it's a giant money pit imo. Far cheaper and easier to build a good digital setup.
 
#14 ·
You ought to listen to a good phono setup and compare a decently clean LP with the same CD- the differences can be pretty strong. CDs can't go much higher than 20KHz, where LPs can. There's also a fullness that LPs can have, which makes it sound a bit more real and I write this knowing that some of this is from RIAA equalization, resonances in the turntable/arm combination and other sources, as well as having played bass for decades. Also, CDs are mixed to max out just below 0VU and LPs can have much better dynamics.

I worked for one of the first 50 Sony CD player dealers and I was as eager as anyone for them to come out and I was also one of those who were disappointed by the early CDs, due to the fact that the version on CD was mixed for vinyl. Once they started to mix for CD, it was better. Then, they started to mix for portable players and sound quality slid backward. The realization that MP3 and other digital files sound like crap made people start to dig their vinyl out and start playing it again. Another thing is the fact that their kids are older and they don't have to worry about it as much. Also, kids are asking their parents what it was all about- I have a customer whose kids wanted to use his old turntable, so I'll be checking that out soon.

Having recently gotten back into vinyl, I won't gush about how life-affirming it is, but I have been very pleasantly surprised by the sound quality of some LPs that aren't import copies, special re-masters or audiophile versions. With the current state of the art audio mastering gear/facilities and fresh ears, I think it will be interesting to see how far they can go in improving the sound of LPs. There's a lot of bad vinyl out there- produced for druggies, by druggies, with druggies in mind, at studios where drugs of all kinds were rampant and record budgets were smoked/snorted up in record time (no pun intended). They slapped the records together, took previous versions and edited the good parts out, added a couple of crap songs, shot a few cover photos and called it a day. Happened to some friends of mine and the original non-major label version was much better.

I don't think you would have to spend thousands to get a decent turntable/cartridge. You certainly can and high end stores are perfectly willing to charge tens of thousands for the whole package but it's not necessary.

I would recommend that anyone who has doubts how good vinyl can sound go to a high end shop and listen, at least a couple of times.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I grew up with vinyl, fully embraced the switch to digital in '85... but now, back to vinyl. Like cars, there's something magical and beautiful with the old analog tech, in spite of cost, maintenance, and finickiness of setup.

To the OP - as this thread is pointing out, AVS isn't a very vinyl-friendly messageboard. If you would like to be around more analog love, check out AudioKarma.
 
#47 ·
I grew up with vinyl, fully embraced the switch to digital in '85... but now, back to vinyl. Like cars, there's something magical and beautiful with the old analog tech, in spite of cost, maintenance, and finickiness of setup.

To the OP - as this thread is pointing out, AVS isn't a very vinyl-friendly messageboard. If you would like to be around more analog love, check out AudioKarma.
We might be getting back into vinyl (truthfully, I never owned vinyl). Why? Our kids (middle school) are into vinyl, because "as everyone knows, vinyl sounds better".) Seriously, they are collecting vinyl even though we have yet to get a turntable. Hopefully I won' t have to get a leisure suit someday.

For GenZ's (born after 2000 and whose first phone could outgun the space shuttle) vinyl is simply more fun. The coolest kids in metro Boston are turning off the 8000 inch jumbo-tron in the rec room and spinning up a disk with their friends. Back to the future, deja-vue all over again.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I have been into audio since 1970 and listened to the changes in sound quality from stereo vinyl to quadrophonic vinyl back to stereo on virgin vinyl from boutique recording studios like Sheffield Labs; then the introduction of digital through CD which initially sounded harsh/terrible; then the effort to improve CD with SACD and DVDA which never really took off; then the move to mobile digital with MP3 which sounded compressed and flat; then the effort to improve the sound of mobile digital with Hi-Res digital downloads which are now finally approaching the resolution, ambiance and detail of the better recordings from vinyl between 1975-1985.

Iv'e been lucky enough to have systems (electrostatic speakers, Audio Research, etc) with enough capability to resolve these differences as they occurred. I used to have a Lynn LP12 with a Koetsu cartridge. Then I got out of vinyl briefly and sold all my gear/LP's because I decided it was a dead format (bad mistake). Now I'm using a Denon DP60L with an Ortofon Black until I can rebuild my vinyl collection and afford another Lynn LP12 used on Audiogon.

I can understand how people who have never really heard vinyl on a really good system could think CD is comparable. But to my ears, it's only now in 2015 that I'm hearing the same magic in the music with high resolution audio that I've gotten since 1985 from well pressed vinyl.
 

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#18 · (Edited)
It's like putting a lawnmower engine in a sportscar, it might get you to the corner store but you won't reach 200 on it.
I think bias-ply tires is a better analogy. Or a carburetor. Or contact points. Or drum brakes. Outdated crap that once served us well -- and has a certain charm -- but now has no place in a modern high-performance system.


By the way, to the original poster, if that's what you wanna do, have at it, have fun. It's just a hobby. Just keep your sense of perspective and don't be sucked into the lunacy that can be "audiophilia."
 
#21 ·
I grew up on reel to reel and then moved to vinyl back in the 70's.
Have had this rebranded Technics turntable since 82. Its always worked flawlessly and sounds excellent with Shure cartridge I put in it.
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/modular-component-systems/mcs-6720.shtml

You can still find some of these good vintage quality tables around. Whe you go out shopping for one the first thing to look at is weight. If its heavy its a good chance its one of the better ones. Then look at the specs.

Still love vinyl. Digital is convenient and the higher resolution flac files sound pretty good. But it still does not give the depth that vinyl seems to give. yes its a little scratchy sometimes and once a record has a bad spot your done with it but if you can ever afford to get your hands on some of the old first cut albums there's nothing like it. DarkSide of the Wall in a master cut sounds awesome on vinyl.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Vinyl does have some value, but it has more value if you already have a collection of 500 albums.

Generally I say, spend about $1 per album you anticipate having on the turntable. So, more or less, if you anticipate having 500 albums, then spend in the range of $500 to $1000 on a turntable.

Keeping in mind that roughly $250 is about as low as you can go, and still get an acceptable turntable. Though, more realistically, $400 to $600 is closer to the typical entry level turntable.

Audio Technica LP120 ($249) -

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTATPL120?siid=86605&gclid=CKre5JbulMUCFYI8aQodJ1oA1g

Decent arm, direct drive.

The Project Debut Carbon (DC) with Ortofon 2M Cartridge ($449) is probably the most recommended turntable out there -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_252DBCDCGB/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-DC-Gloss-Black.html?tp=200

The Denon Dp-300F ($330) has its appeal, nice tone arm, though a pretty generic cartridge, and it is an AUTOMATIC. Push a button and the arm moves to the record, sets down, and starts to play. When it gets to the end, the arm lifts, moves back to rest, and shuts the motor off.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DP300F/Denon-DP-300F.html?tp=200

That's an extremely handy feature.

However, the Denon DP-300F with Ortofon 2M Cartridge ($420) is probably the best choice, if this Auto feature appeals to you. It does appeal to me, so in this price range, this turntable ranks pretty high on my list of replacement turntables.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DP300F-with-2M-Red-Package?sc=2&category=348

TEAC TN-300 ($399) is certainly a sweet looking turntable with USB and Phono Pre-Amp -

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_063TN300CH/TEAC-TN-300-Cherry.html?tp=200

The Marantz TT42 ($330) looks fine,. It seems to have a pretty fair tone arm. It does have a Phono Pre-amp, though most Stereos have a Phono Pre-Amp built-in.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642TT42/Marantz-TT42-Turntable-without-phono-preamp.html?tp=200

The TT42 doesn't seem to have the most sophisticated tone arm, but I'm sure it is adequate. One need not be concerned, but if you have a bit more money, there are other choices.

One last decent Turntable is theMusic Hall MMF-2.2 ($449), though it seems it would require an external Pre-Amp. Though again, many Stereo amps already have a Phono Pre-Amp built in.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_823MMF22/Music-Hall-MMF-2-2-Gloss-Black.html?tp=200

The Parasond ZPhono ($199) is not the cheapest Phono Stage, but equally, coming from Parasound, I would expect it to perform first rate.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZPHONO

There is also a USB version of the Zphono ($249)

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZPHOUSB

A good basic Phono stage, if you needs are purely for Moving Magnet (MM) Cartridges, need not cost that much.

Project Phono Box MM ($79) -


http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PRPBMM

The Cambridge Audio Phono Pre-Amps are also very popular (651P MM/MC, $229) (551P MM, $139) -

http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Cambridge-Audio-Phono-Preamps

To help you make an intelligent choice, we would need a complete run down of the equipment you have now - CD, Amps, Speakers - and the approximate prices of these components.

Then we would need some sense of the number of vinyl albums you anticipate having.

If it is in the 100 to 300 range, Then I would suggest turntables in the $250 to $500 range.

If you anticipate 500 or more, then I would say some where in the $500 to $1000 range.

If you anticipate 750 to 1000 or more, then I would say in the $750 to $1500 range for the turntable and cartridge.


Myself, I don't see much need in going over about $1500 for a turntable.

To help you get some sense of perspective, 100 vinyl albums is about 14.5 inches of shelf space. So, 500 albums take up roughly 6 feet of shelf space.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#31 ·
I'm well aware that vinyl is an inferior source. However, I still enjoy listening to my parent's old records (and some of my own and the collection continues to grow albeit more slowly than digital). I think the Zphono is a fine choice. Often, you can get demo or refurb versions at audio advisor. I actually own one and am satisfied with the quality. Regarding turntables, I would look at Pro-Ject, Rega, and Music Hall. I was actually given a Pioneer PL200 for free from an acquaintance at work. I purchased a headshell on Ebay and installed a Shure M97xe cartridge and it sounds pretty darn good. I also have a Rega RP1 in another room and like that table as well (purchased a demo unit and saved some cash). I've read that some users have experienced motor issues with this model but I've had no problems.
 
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#40 ·
For those who just don't understand why some like older formats and old things, in general, it may be due to nostalgia and some people haven't experienced this because they may be too young, don't bother or some other reason. For those who always had CDs, I'm not sure this will happen at all, unless something in your lives actually lasts for more than the blink of an eye. Constantly changing makes nostalgia almost impossible because people don't become so accustomed to things that they might have a hard time letting go. For those who are old enough to have listened to the old radio shows, hearing these for the first time in many years might bring back memories of past times spent listening with friends or family. This can happen with almost anything and sounds or smells are two of the best triggers for this. At the point where this happens, quality isn't the main concern, it's the experience.

I didn't write this to seem sappy or to make it seem that I have a death grip on the past but having recently lost friends and family members, doing things we did together and talking about old times has been nice. Like vinyl, don't like vinyl- it's not a matter of right or wrong and it's not a competition, it's a matter of whether someone enjoys it, or not.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Highfigh, I actually appreciate what you're saying. I've read a lot about people who actually enjoy the playing/listening experience versus simply the sound, and I can see what they mean. I, for one, don't want to clean an LP ever again, and I don't enjoy the experience of flipping a record or carefully removing it from its sleeve, but some people do. It can be a social thing.

On the other hand, the packaging and artwork for vinyl are much better, and I've always enjoyed proper liner notes. Plus -- and this is really important, I think -- there are thousands upon thousands of vinyl LPs that were thoughtfully sequenced as two 20-minute sides rather than as one big block of music that, these days, can be open-ended. Consider the Rolling Stones Sticky Fingers, as essential a rock album as ever was. "*****" was clearly picked as the lead-off track for Side 2; it had all the characteristics of a classic opening track, and vinyl gave you two shots at that (sometimes more). On CD, "*****" is reduced to ... Track 6 ... but it's really too "in your face" to be lost in the middle.

So, sure, vinyl has its charms, I suppose, and not everyone who enjoys it is crazy. Your examples are compelling. But when people start arguing the sonic superiority of that kinda ancient technology, it really makes one wonder about their critical-thinking skills. It's very simple and always has been: The purpose of a playback medium is to reproduce the studio master, and digital audio (disc-based or download) is infinitely superior at doing that. Period. It's a technical issue, not a nostalgic one.

Over the decades, "bad digital" has been the result of bad recording and mastering techniques (see Post 30 for some good examples from adrummingdude), but these have nothing to do with digital itself. One would have though that "audiophiles" -- who should have a better-than-average background in this kinda thing -- would have understood this from the outset, but apparently they were too busy trying to "fix" the problem by marking on CDs with colored highlighters.
 
#50 ·
I love the Denon DP series from the mid 1980's (the golden age of turntables). Although the Denon didn't have the isolation of a belt drive like the more expensive LP12, it looked beautiful and was much more affordable. Today when a simple black 1"+ base, arm and a belt drive can set you back $500-$700 for an entry level turntable, the vintage Denon turntables offer a great value and the stunning look of a hardwood finish.


DENON DP 57L $549

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DP-57...768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46388a2ae8
 

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#55 ·
Without trying to hijack this thread, I actually had a question about the Pro-ject Debut Carbon vs. the Debut Carbon (DC). I'm looking at the $50 price difference and not fully understanding the physical differences. Can someone explain why the DC comes more highly recommended and why it's worth the $50 extra?
 
#71 ·
The Original Project Carbon Debut, on occasion, had some issue with noise or hum. There is thread on the forum about this. In the thread it seems the best way to lose the hum was simply to loosen the Motor Mounts to stop motor vibration from being transferred, Though I think some may have added rubber motor mounts. (from memory, check the thread)

In the DC version, the changed the motor drive to DC voltage and fixed the motor mount, resulting in a quieter turntable.

Keep in mind, only a few people experienced a problem with the older non-DC models. Every the older non-DC was still highly recommended.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#65 ·
adrummingdude said:
After pointing out that my birthday is coming up, I have secured a $400 WAF budget to purchase a turntable and phono preamp.
 
Well HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!

I reckon this year you will get something amazing!!! (Turntable)


Good for you!!!!!
 
#66 ·
Well HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!

I reckon this year you will get something amazing!!! (Turntable)


Good for you!!!!!


Thanks!


Ummm, I actually got a second sub. :D
 
#70 ·
And now, for something completely different

I don't listen often to old vinyl, but when I do, its on something different.

An old B&O RXII.

Man, it just looks cool, so it satisfies the coolness factor.
Second, it does have a legit excellent suspension, it served well in college in a frat where the floor was frequently heaving from dancing.

Like anything, you can always spend more, but it does become deminishing returns quickly, no different if we're talking TT or PJ or preamp.

Lots of used B&O on Ebay.
 
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