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post #1 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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2 channel receiver setting!

Im running two front floor speakers with a subwoofer. My receiver is set to the small speaker setting for the fronts. My question is on my receiver it gives and option to run bass out front,both or subwoofer. My manual says to run this set up on the both setting. But I have a feeling it should be on sub only settings. Please correct me if I am wrong. Or does it matter considering Im running a small speaker setting for the floor speakers? I hope that made sense.
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post #2 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 07:21 PM
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I'm curious what this magical 2-channel receiver is that has built-in bass management?

How about tell us specifically what Amp you have, what speakers you have, and what Sub you have?

Generally, though I can't know in your specific case, you let each speaker do what it does best. Consequently, you let the Sub do low-bass, and the Front do everything else.

The idea from this approach it to create one continuous evenly balanced speaker from the lowest bass to the highest high.

The Alternate approach is to augment the existing bass by running the Front and the Sub in parallel. That will give you intense bass, but will not give you a seamless balanced system.

So the question is not - What should you do?

The correct question is - What are you hoping to achieve?

So, what are you hoping to achieve? Each setting will give you something different. Choose the setting that best suits your personal taste.

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post #3 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 07:21 PM
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You are correct. Set the front's to SMALL. Ideally, the crossover should be set at 80hz, but you can go lower depending on what speakers you're using.
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post #4 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 07:48 PM
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Most avr's have this option, it's called "extra bass". Run it both ways and pick what sounds best to you. General opinion is to run fronts "small", and cross the sub somewhere around 80hz.
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post #5 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I'm curious what this magical 2-channel receiver is that has built-in bass management?

How about tell us specifically what Amp you have, what speakers you have, and what Sub you have?

Generally, though I can't know in your specific case, you let each speaker do what it does best. Consequently, you let the Sub do low-bass, and the Front do everything else.

The idea from this approach it to create one continuous evenly balanced speaker from the lowest bass to the highest high.

The Alternate approach is to augment the existing bass by running the Front and the Sub in parallel. That will give you intense bass, but will not give you a seamless balanced system.

So the question is not - What should you do?

The correct question is - What are you hoping to achieve?

So, what are you hoping to achieve? Each setting will give you something different. Choose the setting that best suits your personal taste.

Steve/bluewizard

Yamaha 5890 receiver,tsi500 front floor speakers and bic pl200 sub. Question: run both for bass or subwoofer only?
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post #6 of 21 Old 08-04-2015, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by crn3371 View Post
Most avr's have this option, it's called "extra bass". Run it both ways and pick what sounds best to you. General opinion is to run fronts "small", and cross the sub somewhere around 80hz.
Yeah I did this. Im running tsi500 floor speakers and pl200 sub. But wasnt clear about the receiver setting on the bass for "both" or "subwoofer only" . It feels like running subwoofer only takes some of the mids out of the floor speakers and feels a little weak. The setting for this is when your telling the receiver manually what speakers your running. When you get to the subwoofer it gives the three options. front...subwoofer... or both. AS for everything else I am running smalls and 80hz. Just wanted to make sure these were options and not some how screwing something up. Im fairly new at this.

Last edited by James McCarty; 08-04-2015 at 09:04 PM.
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post #7 of 21 Old 08-05-2015, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James McCarty View Post
Yamaha 5890 receiver,tsi500 front floor speakers and bic pl200 sub. Question: run both for bass or subwoofer only?
So, you DON'T have a 2-channel receiver. Can we assume you are simply using a AVR for 2-channel playback, or do you use Surround Sound, and at this point are only interested in the 2-channel aspect.

http://www.overstock.com/Electronics...6/product.html

http://www.4electronicwarehouse.com/...htr-5890-p1420

These small details matter, but better we understand the system, but better we understand the problem.

I would say there is no right answer, only personal preferences.

I would say for music, you want to leave the front as Small, and let the Sub handle the low-bass while the Front handle everything else. That is going to give you the most seamless blend of the two, but also allow you to balance the speakers to suit your personal taste.

The idea is that by removing deep bass from the Front speaker, you make its life easier. They can handle more power, and deal with less complex signal. Typically, removing the low bass will clean up the Front speakers and give you more detail and clarity.

Few set up their systems for music or for movies with the Front speaker set to Large, which means the Front and Sub run in parallel. But the option is there if you prefer it.

Again, there is no danger in any of those settings, so it is simply a matter of picking the one you like.

"...option to run bass out Front, Both or Subwoofer."


Those seem like unconventional settings.

If you run bass out the Front, does that mean Front Only?

If you run the bass out the Sub, does that simply invoke the Crossover setting, and the Front take everything above the Crossover, and the Sub takes everything below?

Can we assume that Both means Front and Sub running in parallel at the lower frequencies?

These settings seem like they would be the equivalent of None, meaning No Sub, Both would equal LARGE, and the Sub setting would equal SMALL.

I'll leave it to others with more experience to clear that up.


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post #8 of 21 Old 08-05-2015, 06:45 PM
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I don't think you need bass management. You can send the entire signal to the subwoofer via the integrated amp's pre-outs and then set the subwoofer's crossover on the subwoofer. The question I have is ok, but now what about the main speakers, shouldn't I be setting a crossover on them so they aren't playing things below 80hz and covering the same frequencies as the subwoofer?

Bass management is really bass-redirect. It takes the bass from other channels and directs it to just a subwoofer frequency summed re-direct pre-out. You don't need a subwoofer pre-out though for stereo, because all the bass is only on two channels. My subwoofer for example has a summed left and right channel input. If yours didn't I would think you could just buy a y-connector. The key would be to having pre-outs on the pre-amp or integrated amp.

The problem as I said is what about the main speakers playing the overlap below 80hz? Is that good, or bad and how is this normally overcome? I think the subwoofer is going to be more articulate at the notes below there so you don't want them both doing that and making it more muddy.

Last edited by applewine; 08-05-2015 at 06:48 PM.
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post #9 of 21 Old 08-10-2015, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applewine View Post
I don't think you need bass management. You can send the entire signal to the subwoofer via the integrated amp's pre-outs and then set the subwoofer's crossover on the subwoofer. The question I have is ok, but now what about the main speakers, shouldn't I be setting a crossover on them so they aren't playing things below 80hz and covering the same frequencies as the subwoofer?

Bass management is really bass-redirect. It takes the bass from other channels and directs it to just a subwoofer frequency summed re-direct pre-out. You don't need a subwoofer pre-out though for stereo, because all the bass is only on two channels. My subwoofer for example has a summed left and right channel input. If yours didn't I would think you could just buy a y-connector. The key would be to having pre-outs on the pre-amp or integrated amp.

The problem as I said is what about the main speakers playing the overlap below 80hz? Is that good, or bad and how is this normally overcome? I think the subwoofer is going to be more articulate at the notes below there so you don't want them both doing that and making it more muddy.
So I have the sub taking all the lower end base and it sounds pretty good. Im set at 80hz. Im running two channel by the way. My next question is what level is typical for these speakers. Ive been told -6 to -9 db for the sub. Not even sure if thats correct. Just what I read. What level for the floor speakers? Ive seen between -3 and +3 but not sur about that. Im playing only music on this system.
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post #10 of 21 Old 08-11-2015, 01:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James McCarty View Post
So I have the sub taking all the lower end base and it sounds pretty good. Im set at 80hz. Im running two channel by the way. My next question is what level is typical for these speakers. Ive been told -6 to -9 db for the sub. Not even sure if thats correct. Just what I read. What level for the floor speakers? Ive seen between -3 and +3 but not sur about that. Im playing only music on this system.
You aren't using the avr's YPAO to set levels? You might want to aim at setting the gain on the subwoofer so that resulting level setting by YPAO is in the negative range to give you some leeway to boost as needed, so say -6 to 0 range works well. The speakers setting will depend on their sensitivity and distance from your seat.
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post #11 of 21 Old 08-11-2015, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You aren't using the avr's YPAO to set levels? You might want to aim at setting the gain on the subwoofer so that resulting level setting by YPAO is in the negative range to give you some leeway to boost as needed, so say -6 to 0 range works well. The speakers setting will depend on their sensitivity and distance from your seat.
I did use a ypao and these figures are pretty close to what it set. I just seen some manual settings at around those figures I gave and just want an opinion.
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post #12 of 21 Old 08-11-2015, 05:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by James McCarty View Post
I did use a ypao and these figures are pretty close to what it set. I just seen some manual settings at around those figures I gave and just want an opinion.
Unless you know if the manual settings are for an identical setup don't use them....your YPAO settings should be better than a stranger's room/setup.
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post #13 of 21 Old 08-11-2015, 05:57 PM
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If you want the speakers to be high-passed at 80Hz and the subwoofer to be low-passed at 80Hz, then you should use the SWFR setting. If you want the speakers to receive a full-range signal and not be high-passed at 80Hz, then you should use the BOTH setting. The FRNT setting is for when you have no subwoofer.

When you set it to FRNT or BOTH does it not then set your front speaker size to LARGE even if you previously set them to SMALL?

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post #14 of 21 Old 08-13-2015, 04:59 PM
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I'm using a Marantz AVR. The setup determined my crossover should be 40hz. The listed -6 db is 45hz. You can only select 40 or 60 on the digital crossover on the receiver.

But, now I'm listening with Pure Direct mode. I hooked up by subwoofer to the left and right pre-outs and set the crossover knob on the subwoofer to 50hz. It sounds good.
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post #15 of 21 Old 08-13-2015, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applewine View Post
I'm using a Marantz AVR. The setup determined my crossover should be 40hz. The listed -6 db is 45hz. You can only select 40 or 60 on the digital crossover on the receiver.

But, now I'm listening with Pure Direct mode. I hooked up by subwoofer to the left and right pre-outs and set the crossover knob on the subwoofer to 50hz. It sounds good.
If you got the Marantz 1606 then your not
Using it correctly or to the best of its ability.

According to the owners manual you can set the
Crossover on the AVR from 40hz all the way up to
250hz! 80Hz is the default. (Page 204). You are still
Running your speakers full range the way you have
It configured now.

Your speakers -6db point is 45hz. The AVR determined
The xover as 40 HZ is most likely do to room and or
Boundary gain. This is probably not ideal. You should
Probably set the speakers to 'small' and an 80Hz xover.

Using the pre-outs to run the sub is not ideal either.
You should be using the subwoofer pre-out. Of course
You can't select the correct xover and set the speakers
To 'small' if you don't use the sub pre-out.

Pure Direct and Direct modes disable Audyssey and
Any bass mgmt if so engaged. (Which it isn't)

But, if you like the way it sounds then great!

(Why did you get an AVR? Remind me if you
Want)

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post #16 of 21 Old 08-14-2015, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
If you got the Marantz 1606 then your not
Using it correctly or to the best of its ability.

According to the owners manual you can set the
Crossover on the AVR from 40hz all the way up to
250hz! 80Hz is the default. (Page 204). You are still
Running your speakers full range the way you have
It configured now.

Your speakers -6db point is 45hz. The AVR determined
The xover as 40 HZ is most likely do to room and or
Boundary gain. This is probably not ideal. You should
Probably set the speakers to 'small' and an 80Hz xover.

Using the pre-outs to run the sub is not ideal either.
You should be using the subwoofer pre-out. Of course
You can't select the correct xover and set the speakers
To 'small' if you don't use the sub pre-out.

Pure Direct and Direct modes disable Audyssey and
Any bass mgmt if so engaged. (Which it isn't)

But, if you like the way it sounds then great!

(Why did you get an AVR? Remind me if you
Want)
I got an AVR because I want to be able to do video too and also dedicated power-amps with subwoofer support seemed expensive.

I don't see why there is a problem in using pure direct mode which will run the speakers in full mode because the speakers will just not use any extra frequency. Also, the pre-outs are the same as the subwoofer pre-out, just not bass managed. So I just used both left and right and plugged them into the stereo inputs on my subwoofer which combined them and then set the knob to 50hz so that takes care of it. I think a subwoofer is a good idea, though I guess a lot of music people don't use them. The power amp I saw that had pre-outs and crossover was thousands of dollars, though I guess I only need the pre-outs.

What benefit do you think I'd get with a non AVR unit and what would you suggest?
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post #17 of 21 Old 08-14-2015, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applewine View Post
I got an AVR because I want to be able to do video too and also dedicated power-amps with subwoofer support seemed expensive.

I don't see why there is a problem in using pure direct mode which will run the speakers in full mode because the speakers will just not use any extra frequency. Also, the pre-outs are the same as the subwoofer pre-out, just not bass managed. So I just used both left and right and plugged them into the stereo inputs on my subwoofer which combined them and then set the knob to 50hz so that takes care of it. I think a subwoofer is a good idea, though I guess a lot of music people don't use them. The power amp I saw that had pre-outs and crossover was thousands of dollars, though I guess I only need the pre-outs.

What benefit do you think I'd get with a non AVR unit and what would you suggest?
My suggestion won't do video. this is what I use...
Lots of power and has analog bass mgmt (which I use)
Cost about the same as what you paid for the Marantz
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

The speakers you have are very nice. But, they are 6db
Down at 45Hz. So around 60hz their output starts dropping
And/or distorting. The way you are using your Marantz
(IMHO-incorrectly) you are still sending them a full range
Signal. They would play cleaner and with less possible distortion
If you used bass mgmt correctly.

I guess I don't understand why you would
Set up your Marantz they way you did.
Makes no sense to me.

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post #18 of 21 Old 08-15-2015, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
My suggestion won't do video. this is what I use...
Lots of power and has analog bass mgmt (which I use)
Cost about the same as what you paid for the Marantz
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

The speakers you have are very nice. But, they are 6db
Down at 45Hz. So around 60hz their output starts dropping
And/or distorting. The way you are using your Marantz
(IMHO-incorrectly) you are still sending them a full range
Signal. They would play cleaner and with less possible distortion
If you used bass mgmt correctly.

I guess I don't understand why you would
Set up your Marantz they way you did.
Makes no sense to me.

I saw that outlaw unit during my search. Actually that is about the cheapest I think that has bass management or crossover or something from a list I saw. What sort of quality benefit could I get
from using that though, or whatever benefit.

I was using bass management first, but now I'm trying pure direct, which is designed for music. What is the problem sending the full signal to the primary loud speakers? It is just going to not use it anyway. I guess you mean I should crossover at 60z instead and can't do that this way. I could switch it back. I wanted to try it. I've never use stereo pre-outs to the subwoofer so I wanted to try that.
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post #19 of 21 Old 08-15-2015, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by applewine View Post
I saw that outlaw unit during my search. Actually that is about the cheapest I think that has bass management or crossover or something from a list I saw. What sort of quality benefit could I get
from using that though, or whatever benefit.

I was using bass management first, but now I'm trying pure direct, which is designed for music. What is the problem sending the full signal to the primary loud speakers? It is just going to not use it anyway. I guess you mean I should crossover at 60z instead and can't do that this way. I could switch it back. I wanted to try it. I've never use stereo pre-outs to the subwoofer so I wanted to try that.
i just wanted to point out to you that IMHO your
Speakers ARE NOT full range. I think that below
60 or 80 HZ their output is dropping and/or distorting.
After all we are talking about a 5.5 inch driver handling
The bass. Your sub will do much better handling everything
Below 80hz with no distortion. By crossing over your speakers
At 80hz they will play cleaner above 80hz as that 5.5" driver
Won't be struggling to play those bass notes.

I don't think I can make it much clearer...do as you
Wish.

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post #20 of 21 Old 08-16-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post
i just wanted to point out to you that IMHO your
Speakers ARE NOT full range. I think that below
60 or 80 HZ their output is dropping and/or distorting.
After all we are talking about a 5.5 inch driver handling
The bass. Your sub will do much better handling everything
Below 80hz with no distortion. By crossing over your speakers
At 80hz they will play cleaner above 80hz as that 5.5" driver
Won't be struggling to play those bass notes.

I don't think I can make it much clearer...do as you
Wish.
Ah, thank you. I was just wondering this minute if i should set them at 80hz because of no stereo below that, or the 60 hz near the guesstimated -3db area or what I read somewhere it suggested the -6db rating which is 40hz. Some people here earlier said something about not setting it to 80hz like THX says because no stereo. I think I'll give that a try. It was fun to try running the speakers in pure direct mode and using the stereo pre-outs for my subwoofer. I think I'll set it back to bass managed and manually set the crossover to 80hz. I may not be able to detect a difference, but it seems like a good idea.
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post #21 of 21 Old 08-19-2015, 07:52 AM
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My preference is for the "both" option. Almost every speaker made will benefit from the use of the subwoofer for 2 channel reproduction.
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