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The "need" to spend lots of money

11K views 251 replies 68 participants last post by  markrubin 
#1 ·
So the system-on-a-budget thread that's near the top of this forum got me thinking -- well actually I've been thinking about such a topic for years myself, but nonetheless it inspired me to create this post.

Over the years, since I got into audio when I was 18 -- and I'm 31 now -- I've noticed a certain type of "need" by audio enthusiasts (not a fan of the "other" term) to spend money (and thereby feeding the Machine) in order to create the most hi-fi system that could possibly afford. On the surface, it seems like a noble cause. I mean, if you can afford it, why not purchase gear that would lead to a better sound. But it's obviously not that simple. Let's face it, most of the "audiophile" (and there it is, dammit I couldn't help it) industry is built upon snake oil, misinformation, biased ears, and gullible folks. This post is not get into the specifics -- it appears the majority of people on this forum already have both feet squarely set on either side of the fence. This post is more or less about the psychology of such a "need" and why it exists.

It's kind of sobering in a way to think that people with such a disposable income are basically brainwashed by the Machine to believe adding a $2,000 amp will make their sound better than a $350 HTR. Or even worse, external DACs. It all just seems malicious to me, on the part of the Machine. As much as I love audio, I equally hate how the Machine ups the ante on everyone that "buys into" their plan. So much gear is ridiculously overpriced, yet folks believe it is a "very fair" price, or a good value. I mean, you can take a 2 week trip to Europe and spend real money over there for the price of a "decent" set of speakers.

So to all the newcomers, newbies, and folks that are wondering if you have to spend a fortune to get good sound: you don't. You can actually build a hell of a system for under a grand if you can dig on Craigslist for the speakers. Everything else is more or less the same, provided you're buying name-brand stuff (Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, etc.).
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I tend to agree, but if you know what to listen for in certain songs, you might change your mind. OFC if you dont, then you wont know what your missing. One example is a song by the fugees where the 2 front speakers throw the voices over your left shoulder like they are behind you. many speakers I demoed could not do that. another example are background musical instruments which revel depth of the soundstage...it all is relative, but if you dont know you just dont know.
 
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#9 ·
Excellent article I had not seen before.

Yeah, same thing happens with cars, motorcycles, bicycles, TV's, watches, beds, you name it.

The point of diminishing returns happens quite quickly in this world where a truly awful product(s) in any category is harder and harder to find and where 90 percentile products are within reach of most people.

My home theater system, (if you back out the ridiculously over the top DD15 subwoofer....Velodyne offered me a "deal I couldn't refuse), cost new about $3,000 and sounds great, (Usher speakers, Denon AVR). A more powerful system for that medium sized room would be silly.

The one in my secondary room, including the "lowly" Yamaha sub, maybe $1,200.

Both sound excellent for their respective tasks at hand.
 
#7 ·
And possibly, reading too much on the internet/forums (and assuming it's accurate) can at times be confusing and/or misleading. Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of good info, help and direction, but oftentimes, one needs to be able separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
#8 ·
Did you ever want or buy a 'better' house, car, shoes, whiskey, beer, glasses, coffee, chair, carpet, tires, pencil, computer, oil, bath towels, steak, anything, other than audio gear during your life?

Were you diseased?

Desiring to improve your lot in life shouldn't be classified as a nameable disease or affliction (Re: audiophilia), until it gets out of control, even then, it's a judgement call.
 
#10 ·
The thing is, a better house is usually something that can be objectively measured. And people buy nice cars like BMWs for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact it's a status symbol. No one outside of audiophiles gives a damn that you have a $3k amp. In fact, for their sake and your sake, they're better off not knowing.

It is my belief that the audiophile industry is primarily composed of snake oil. Every industry has some snake oil, but not nearly as much as this one. Comparing audiophilia to parts of everyday life is quite the stretch.
 
#11 ·
If you or a loved is consumed with purchasing audio gear which affects your job, life or family, contact the Audiophilia hotline at 1-866-TOO-LOUD or www.audiophilia.anon (NOTE: This is not an ordinary 12 step program. I was also an addict)

Also, if you think you have a viable lawsuit, contact the law offices of Greasem, Fleesum and Bolt.
 
#12 ·
RayDunzl said:
You don't have to spend much for good sound.

It's when, after a while, you think you want 'better' sound, maybe that's where the trouble starts.
IMO, the trouble starts not when you think you want better sound, but when you've convinced yourself that you have to squander money on over-priced "audiophile" gear in order to realize better sound.
 
#14 ·
There is definitely a psychology to this that goes beyond audio -- nobody wants to buy the least-expensive bottle of wine on the list, either (a fact that savvy restaurants have long taken advantage of).

In another thread someone was concerned that they could not get an Energy 5.1 speaker set due to supply constraints; I recommended the Monoprice knock-off which is a very close match; the response was that the price was too low for comfort.

People who don't know better often fall back on "you get what you pay for" (another thought process that sellers routinely take advantage of), but there may be few places where that saying is less true than in A/V equipment.

Idealized audio and HT has no real interest to me; it's always possible to throw more money at diminishing returns. Optimized (within a given budget, be it $100 or $10000) is a lot more fun.
 
#15 ·
I like that last bit the best -- idealized audio vs optimized. And yes I am the same way, with one caveat: everything based on science and objective facts.

With a 10K budget, for instance, I'd spend 9 grand of it on speakers. And the rest for the amp and media player. The only thing that sounds different are, of course, transducers, and that is where the money should be spent.

But if I was going to spend 10 grand on audio, I'd better be making AT LEAST $150K a year... there's too many places to see, people to meet, cuisines to enjoy, and natural wonders to behold to spend exorbitant amount of money on speakers... But that's just me.
 
#17 ·
As I see it, being an audiophile is a hobby. As with all hobbies, people want to do the most for THEIR enjoyment. If it means spending $10k on speakers...have fun. Myself, I need decent playback, on decent equipment that produces decent sound so I can enjoy my CD collection I have been working on since 1983. I am in it to collect CD's from artist I enjoy listening to. I do not need to have the best gear but some folks do. That is what is fun for them in the hobby. I will not fault them. My only issue comes from audiophiles who have an elitist and snobbish attitude because you haven't spent the cost of a new car on speakers. I am currently researching and pricing out what my new 2-channel system will be but it will stay in the $800-$1000 range. This will include a receiver, cd player, speakers and cabeling and about 50% of this budget will be going towards the speakers. To me this will be sufficient for my needs and I have lots of options to consider at this price point. Research is the key though. When you are working with a budget like I have, you want every dollar to count and to get the best YOUR money can buy at that price range.
 
#20 ·
There are people who pay 900$/meter for this kind of things: Tellurium Q Black Diamond USB Cable

And "reviewers" who says things like this:
There is a definite and easily noticeable difference in performance when using the Black Diamond from Tellurium Q, the equipment just relaxes and the music becomes more effortless. Like Hussain Bolt running the 100m dash and just taking it in his stride, the construction of the USB cleverly controls timing and phase distortion without the need for other gizmos and gadget add ons to produce a fast energetic performance or delicate and sweet details with ease
 
#24 ·
I buy discs. Generally used.

The only thing I have on my hardware want list would be 'better' subs.

I'm evaluating that now, and coming up with 'not much need' when I compare the unequalized signal from the source to whats in the air.

More important at this point might be to address standing waves. Deadening the back wall a bit is on my mind. Chunks of 7x24x48 rockwool are on my shopping list. About 12 of them.
 
#167 ·
I subscribed back about 3 months ago just to see what it was all about. I live in a rural area and nobody carried it locally so I said what the hell and ordered it. After three months, I can already safely say I will not renew the subscription. It is nice to read about $30 k speakers but I will never be able to afford them. I scanned the last couple issues and it is certainly for the elitist audiophile mentality for sure. Instead of Stereophile magazine they should call it Gearhead magazine. Until they come down from the clouds and start including articles about gear the AVERAGE person can afford it's out of my league. I guess that is why so many follow AVS since it caters to all.
 
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#25 ·
I used to listen to klipsch speakers and then i got focal speakers, nothing bad happened except the smile/happiness inside of me got too addicting. now i just listen to music all day long.

yea, yea, Im sure you can do lots of stuff on a budget...enjoy.
 
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#26 ·
Apologize in advance if the following seems like philosophizing :)

In my native language the word 'Shauq' loosely translates to passion/interest/taste or an amalgam of those. An old saying goes that you can't really put a price on Shauq...it will hold a different value for different people for different reasons.

It seems madness to me that someone would actually spend their health & money and use years of their lives to train for, and then scale for a brief moment, a very dangerous mountain peak in the Himalayas. But what personal value they put on that feat, and what joy they extract from it, is known only to them.

Who are you really? Are you comfortable in your skin? Do you truly know where your shauq lies?

The misfortune of an increasingly material world is that a lot of people spend money thinking they're indulging their 'interests' when in actuality they're trying to find the answers to those questions. The trick is spending money and time after you know those answers.

Snake oil ceases to be a factor then because there is no objective measurement for what makes someone else happy.

IMVHO, ofcourse.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Just yesterday ...really by random chance... I was watching so Rocky Mountain Audio Fest Videos from 2013, and discovered several bit of interesting information.

First, in the '70's that average Home Stereo was $250, today that is about $1350. Myself back in the 1970's, I had a system worth about $700, and that we really just a bit above the bottom.

Price is a tricky thing. If my family knew how much I have in my audio system, they would have me locked up. Even after seeing it and shaking their heads, I haven't actually told them the price.

So ... how much is too much? From where my family stands, I've spend way too much, ridiculously too much. But the fact is, much like in the 1970's, my system at about $3500 is just a bit above average. Though I confess I have a new amp that is substantially out of proportion to the rest of my equipment. My previous system was about $2500, and really was enough.

One lecturer who spent his life in the audio business in one form or another said, the mistake most people make is they don't optimize the system they have before the decide to purchase new equipments. Putting newer better equipment into the same old bad flawed circumstance, it not the path to audio satisfaction.

You do own it to yourself to make sure the room your system is in, is not itself compromising the sound you hear. Optimizing a room is not free, but neither is it crazy expensive.

Further as you advance in years, you are likely to become more successful and more financially stable. When I was younger I drove a collection of really crappy used cares. Like $100 to $500 each cars. When I got older, I moved up to a $5000 car. Today I drive a slightly used $15,000 car.

Why should audio equipment be any different? If I can afford a better system now, and I want it, and I think I will used it, and I think I will get value out of it, why not have it.

So, there is an element of perspective hear. To most of the working class people I know, I have spent an unfathomable amount on my system. To upper middle class people with some knowledge of audio, I have an OK run of the mill system. To a rich guy who can really afford good equipment, my considerable system is low end.

But, as others have pointed out, that can apply to any aspect of life. When you are young and poor - TIMEX; when you are rich and successful - ROLEX. When you are young and poor - Ford, when you are rich and successful - BMW.

In another thread someone was trying to put together a good system for about $500/$600. You can see the equipment being discussed in this thread -

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-channel-audio/1912185-500-600-stereo.html

Sample systems tended to run between $600 for bargains and slight compromises up to about $2200 for fairly routine systems.

But, in today's market, you have to seek out the absolute best bargains, even if those are not the ideal speakers and amps, and you have to make some compromises of features, power, and other aspects of the system.

Finding the asbolute best prices, the following system is nice, but really nothing special. Though it should sound very good and is a very modern amp with Streaming and a decent amount of power.

$380/ea = Yamaha RN500 Network Receiver
$230/ea = Yamaha CDS300 CD Player
$240/pr = JBL ES80BK speakers
--------------------------------------------------
$850 = Total


However, hear is a near identical system, more reflective of what a good middle of the road system is going to cost -

$550/ea = Yamaha RN500 Network Receiver 80w/ch
$300/ea = CD Player, or $600/ea for a Universal Player (BluRay, DVD, CD, SACD)
$800/pr = Typical floorstanding speakers (on-sale) (Diamond 10.7 Towers)
--------------------------
$1650 = Total


The world has gotten more expensive, there is no denying that.

Now certainly there are Snake Oils aspects, but "Let the Buyer Beware". It is up to you to educate yourself, and to spend your money wisely. If you have a $500 amp, then spending $500 on wire and cable is probably not a good investment. If you have a $5000 amp, then perhaps you could justify $500 on wire and cable. You probably don't need it, but you could justify it. Just as you can justify an expensive watch or a fancy car.

You don't need to spend a lot of money, but you do need to spend a reasonable amount to get a good system. Today, that means over $1000, probably closer to $2000 if you want a turntable.

How much is too much depends on who you are and how much money you have.

Plus ...a good system... varies with circumstances. Perhaps if you are student, in essence, living in a bedroom or dorm room, then a large bulky system is not likely to cut it. A pair of fair Studio Monitors or a small amp with bookshelf speakers is probably the most you can handle for size and budget.

If you are a successful professional with a stable job and home, then you are in a position for a larger more expensive system.

I've heard speaker costing $5000/pr or a bit more, and they truly do sound fantastic. That is not my imagination. But, despite the fact that those speakers sound fantastic, my $1000/pr speaker sound pretty damned good. I'm not complaining. But trust me, should I have a wind-fall of cash, I will not be settling for $1000/pr speakers.

More than a fixed amount of money, what constitutes a Good System is about perspective.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#36 ·
Finding the asbolute best prices, the following system is nice, but really nothing special. Though it should sound very good and is a very modern amp with Streaming and a decent amount of power.

$380/ea = Yamaha RN500 Network Receiver
$230/ea = Yamaha CDS300 CD Player
$240/pr = JBL ES80BK speakers
--------------------------------------------------
$850 = Total


However, hear is a near identical system, more reflective of what a good middle of the road system is going to cost -

$550/ea = Yamaha RN500 Network Receiver 80w/ch
$300/ea = CD Player, or $600/ea for a Universal Player (BluRay, DVD, CD, SACD)
$800/pr = Typical floorstanding speakers (on-sale) (Diamond 10.7 Towers)
--------------------------
$1650 = Total


The world has gotten more expensive, there is no denying that.
Funny how the receiver increased in price when it became part of a "better" system.

Even $200 for a disc player is a crazy outlay (let alone $600 for that latter system).

Nitpicking aside, I do think the assertion that the cost of a typical "decent" level system has gone up is off base. Computer aided design and modeling techniques and quality international manufacturing have allowed for better-than-pretty-good sound at startlingly low prices (think: Monoprice "premium" series stuff). It's easily possible to put together an $500 system today that would simply blow away a $1000 system from almost any era in that era's dollars.
 
#29 ·
I fell into the situation where I bought about $1300 worth of stereo equipment while I was in Vietnam in 1972 and then over the years had about $300 or so worth of LP's. A buddy of mine went just the opposite and had a much less expensive stereo system and probably $3000 or more albums. Although I really loved my system (most of which is gone now), I think my buddy had a better way of doing things. I eventually equated my system to music ratio as being like having a brand new Corvette and only buying $500 worth of gasoline for it! LOL

I always wonder when I see people online who own systems worth many, many thousands of dollars, how many of them also have huge libraries of music. For me, it was more 'bragging rights' where my buddy was more into the music. Luckily, he would usually bring over his new albums to listen to on my system within a week of purchasing them. Back in those days, he and I would spend many hours just listening to music, but this was way before the internet, satellite TV and all the other modern distractions.
 
#30 ·
Its very common to approach audio as some weird price tag worshipping -spiritually oriented way. About 98% of so called audiophiles do actually understand about audio buffalos ass hair -much.
That´s possible because audio is invisible, and requires quite a lot of education to comprehend as its bare naked acoustical/electrical i.e. real physical self.
 
#31 ·
If you visit an audio show where there are a hundred rooms or more of audio gear on display, you are more than likely going to hear systems that you like more than others. Speakers that have a clarity that pleases the ear, a certain warmth and depth to them, tight deep bass perhaps. The ability to disappear within the soundstage, non fatiguing. As well, maybe they also have a pleasing design to them and know they will also look good in your home. Others, you might not like at all. Now perhaps comes the fun of scoring them at a good price. Myself, when i'm looking to buy something, I head over to Audiogon and see if I can find it at a good price. In many instances, it is not only what you pay for a thing, but what you can also resell it for down the road. With decent gear bought used, you can often get close to what you paid for it.
There is the machine as you put if, of course, always trying to squeeze the last dollar off of the ignorant consumer. But, there have also been a great many people over the years who have loved good sound and who also had a desire to engineer something better sounding than what they have heard. If you ask someone such as these guys to build the best amplifier for instance they can come up with, more than likely, they will not design and build a $350 dollar AVR. Using the cheapest parts they can find, filling it with circuit boards, plastics and limited power supplies. Nor fill it with a host of functions such as radio tuners, video tuners, bluetooths, etc. all crammed into a single chassis and then give it inflated watt ratings to draw attention. They instead design it to do one thing and do it as well as they can make it, using the best quality parts they can find, and then continue to refine it as their understanding grows over time.
 
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