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post #151 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 10:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
It was just another example. You can do the same in principal with amplifiers or any other piece of gear, but cables make for an easy to wrap your brain around example. Amps would have to either be very similar power level or have some other way to prohibit simply identifying the volume at which distortion skyrockets. Other devices like DACs would be simpler, much like cables.

I wouldn't call those serious issues though. All easily addressed. - conjecture

But I have to ask... why choose two cables that are as 'sonically different' as possible? Well obviously to increase the chances of a positive test. But why should that be a "serious issue"? Do magazines and consumers alike not rave about night and day or at least easily and repeatably identifiable differences between two top of the line cables? Or between two high end cables in one companies lineup? Or even the same cable before and after break-in?? Reliable enough differences to describe them in exquisite and precise detail, to which other reviewers and consumers across the world agree that in different systems on different days, yes, that is absolutely the sonic signature of that cable???

So the test I described should be a dang cakewalk for true audiophiles, regardless of the two cables chosen. Who wouldn't want to breeze through such a simple task of labeling the lamp cord and the Shunyata to put the issue to rest once and for all?

But now you're telling me the cables need to be carefully chosen to be as different as possible. Because... those obvious differences dissapear when one is disguised?

Well, is the lamp cord and Shunyata sufficiently different? How many reviewers do you think would volunteer to put themselves to the test?
Clearly you haven't read the publications that I referenced (or you have and have chosen to be intellectually dishonest). They don't uphold your position in the universal goodness of DB ABX tests, nor your position on the absence of audible differences. They evidence the problems, and the presence of audible differences, they don't strike down their existence.

You have just merely posted more conjecture, in an attempt to prove that you're correct about something that imperially has been proven to be other wise.

Perhaps you will start posting citations, which uphold your assertions for myself and others to review?

Your personal opinion hold no special weight in here (regardless of how many times your post it), in that it's no greater or lessor in value than anyone else's.

There is yet another option, we can simply agree to disagree and move on, the choice is yours.

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post #152 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 10:59 PM
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I don't know. I have a good handle on what a lot of lamp cord sounds like but I have not listened to Shunyata. Are you saying it's different or the same?
This is the third time you have taken an example literally. Obviously intentional at this point. If you don't want to have the discussion, fine.
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post #153 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 11:04 PM
 
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This is the third time you have taken an example literally. Obviously intentional at this point. If you don't want to have the discussion, fine.
It's not obvious to this on looker.

What is, is that he simply disagrees with you, and you won’t let it go.

Sonic differences exist. You don’t think so, that’s fine by me.

Why do you care so much about discrediting those that believe that they do. It’s not like you can prove that they cannot!

(So what’s the answer: do they sound different or the same?)

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post #154 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 11:04 PM
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Clearly you haven't read the publications that I referenced (or you have and have chosen to be intellectually dishonest).
Jady was upset at getting caught being intellectually dishonest.

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They don't uphold your position in the universal goodness of DB ABX tests, nor your position on the absence of audible differences. They evidence the problems, and the presence of audible differences, they don't strike down their existence.
My position is clear enough for people to read for themselves. No need for you to incorrectly restate it. Not everything sounds the same. Controlled testing is just a tool. ABX is just one form of that.

I know... strawmen are a lot easier to knock down.
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post #155 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 11:09 PM
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This is the third time you have taken an example literally...
Of course I believed what you said. Am I not supposed to do that? If it was a metaphor I totally missed it?
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post #156 of 182 Old 04-04-2017, 11:11 PM
 
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[quote=Bigus;52023209]

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Jady was upset at getting caught being intellectually dishonest
We aren’t talking about Jady, we’re talking about you!

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My position is clear enough for people to read for themselves. No need for you to incorrectly restate it. Not everything sounds the same. Controlled testing is just a tool. ABX is just one form of that.

I know... strawmen are a lot easier to knock down.
Yes, and I have been blowing your argument over for days.

This last posting is nothing more than more conjecture.

Really Bigus, where's the beef man?

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post #157 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AMO BRO View Post
I think that you should CAREFULLY RE-READ what I actually wrote, as you are not responding to what I have stated or inferred, well, not until the very end.

As for your last part, you haven't described a proper ABX test, single or double blind. Just as I suspected you wouldn't. This is why I asked you to detail what you were talking about.

I can see now, how you have come to the opinion that you have, as your test is what has limited you, from being able to learn of the differences that millions of us constantly refer to.

1. Limiting output to the weakest amp – Fail
2. Arbitrarily setting reference SPL – Fail
3. Limiting Track Test Times to 2-minutes – Fail
4. Improper Gear to set SPL levels, between amps - Fail

I'll pause here...
Answer me this one question ..Do you know who Dr Floyd Toole is? BTW, I havent seen you lay down any ground rules considering DBT . Lets have them
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post #158 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 08:48 AM
 
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Answer me this one question ..Do you know who Dr Floyd Toole is? BTW, I havent seen you lay down any ground rules considering DBT . Lets have them
I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but I’m happy to answer this one questions, as you have plead, me to.
I know who he is, and have shared the same air as him.

Now for your false assertions that I haven’t laid down any ground rules, relating to DBT’s, and your further request to have them.

I have clearly stated and evidenced that there is no such things as a universal ABX DBT, and that one members detailing / outlines pertaining to what one is, are rarely the same as another, but always fraught with short-comings. I have further provided AES reference papers, which have become the must read on the subject matter. In reading them, it becomes abundantly clear that most members, have been falsely representing the results of these papers.

These papers, do not hold ABX BDT’s up, as an end all, be all, means to ending the ’Great Debate’, nor do they strike down the existence of sonic differences.

Rather, they point out many foibles, ranging from intrinsic retention of human bias, statically errors, statically dogma, test hardware short comings, etc, and point to the fact while many can be greatly mitigated that there’s a need for the development of JUST ONE metric, and many strive to outline what they believe would be helpful in this regard (Yes, there is more than one, and each with their own or shared short-comings, when compared to that of another. This makes it imperative for one to cite which metric that they’re referring to).

When gents such as yourself flippantly, strive to support your assertions, by loosely suggesting or outright claim that ABX DBT’s have sorted all of this out, or can, and go on referring to such without outlining what variant of the metric they are referring to etc, they are producing nothing but conjecture.

When some members take it a step further, and attempt to belittle other members, for claiming that they can and have heard differences, during such tests and outside of them, doing so by referencing ABX DBT’s without citation, and using such a reference (tag line) to infer or outright state that another member is: stupid, a fool, off their rocker, etc., it then becomes a purely derogatory personal attack, and not merely, conjecture.

It isn’t my place or yours or that of any AVS member to outline what a proper ABX DBT should be (but it is our responsibility properly ascertain (learn) what one is, and is not, for the purpose of more accurate, and filtered debate, within these forums), as such efforts are for those with appropriate credentials, career experience, and who’s works will be vetted by peers of equal and or greater qualifications.

As I have already stated: ABX testing is highly complex. Making up one’s own test metrics for home testing is just fine; however, if one desires their results to be accepted as meaningful to others, there are documented metrics that have much favor in this setting.

Here's are links to some. If you are merely interested in forum opinion on the subject matter, you need not click the links below.

Pure direct vs 2.1

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15022
The above link brings you to a paper, which covers off statistical challenges, and offers up an easy to apply to ABX test version of signal detection theory.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5189
This is a link to a much read classic. Type 1 & Type 2 Errors. This is rudimentary reading.

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=7077
Are we measuring the right things, another classic.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3899
The Great Debate: Subjective Evaluation

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5538
A user friendly methodology for subjective listing tests... a practical low level read...

So, if you or others wish to keep appealing to this particular stone, citation is required, or a full detailing of your personal, made up metric. Without it, your claims cannot be seriously considered.

Returning to your detailing's, I have pointed out many shortcomings, pausing with the intention of continuing on, should you desire a further review. But it would simply be best for you and others to download and read the references that I provided. Then you will see and understand the 'rub' as I do.

Outside of revealing the errors in your made-up metric, I have pointed to references which outline what ABX DBT’s should and should not be, and can and cannot do. Therefore, I have constructively laid things out, in the regard that you have claimed, I have not.

Thank you for your questions.

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post #159 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 09:35 AM
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...Rather, they point out many foibles, ranging from intrinsic retention of human bias, statically errors, statically dogma, test hardware short comings, etc, and point to the fact while many can be greatly mitigated that there’s a need for the development of JUST ONE metric, and many strive to outline what they believe would be helpful in this regard (Yes, there is more than one, and each with their own or shared short-comings, when compared to that of another. This makes it imperative for one to cite which metric that they’re referring to)...
Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn last night?
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I've been away from the forums for a few days and just wanted to say that catching up on this thread was quite entertaining. Pure gold.

Please gentlemen, continue.
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post #161 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 10:58 AM
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I've been away from the forums for a few days and just wanted to say that catching up on this thread was quite entertaining. Pure gold. Please gentlemen, continue.
I've got to stop or I'll be given a time out. M-U-S-T resist giving my opinion without notarized documentation....
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post #162 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 11:10 AM
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Seems certain people may have read papers on specific test methodologies, forms of error and bias and such, and still miss the big picture of what controlled testing is for and what the results mean. There isn't going to be any one single supertest that unambiguously settles all questions and arguments, no more than is the case in medicine or any other field of research. They just produce data. Data that has to be addeded to the collective knowledge in the subject area.

And stupid, fools, etc? Oh my. How personal some people make this. I too hear differences between many amplifiers and other gear sighted. I don't think myself a fool. I just recognize the cause.
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post #163 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 11:26 AM
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I've been away from the forums for a few days and just wanted to say that catching up on this thread was quite entertaining. Pure gold.

Please gentlemen, continue.
Subscribed!

At first I started quoting every case I saw which was FOR pure direct, but then noticed how long the list was getting. Well here's another vote for PURE DIRECT, except where the source material has significant LF content; then I'll want the sub engaged so will use DIRECT instead. In a sighted test, the difference is night and day. I'm fairly certain I could tell the difference between PURE DIRECT and 2.1, but don't call me on it!

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Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn last night?
I must have missed the wake-up call, because I have no idea what this means.
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I'm taking my meds !!
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post #165 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 11:52 AM
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I must have missed the wake-up call, because I have no idea what this means.
It's been a running cultural joke for a while now, originating from a hotel advertising campaign.

EDIT: not sure sure why the video is showing up as double.


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post #166 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 12:16 PM
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It's been a running cultural joke for a while now, originating from a hotel advertising campaign. Not sure if Russ69 employed the joke entirely correct in his context of use though...
I surely did. AMO BRO laid it all out concisely as if he was the expert that slept at the Holiday Inn.
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post #167 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 12:25 PM
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I surely did. AMO BRO laid it all out concisely as if he was the expert that slept at the Holiday Inn.
No expert stayed at the Holiday Inn Express. He just felt like an expert for having stayed there.

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Jady,
That's what popped up in my mind as well. Yet another wall of text to obfuscate the subject matter at hand.
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post #169 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:07 PM
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I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but I’m happy to answer this one questions, as you have plead, me to.
Pleaded? You think too highly of yourself my friend. Please stop the drama, drama-queen.

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When gents such as yourself flippantly, strive to support your assertions, by loosely suggesting or outright claim that ABX DBT’s have sorted all of this out, or can, and go on referring to such without outlining what variant of the metric they are referring to etc, they are producing nothing but conjecture.
What process did you use to arrive at your results in your preference for the Teac? How were your tests conducted? How did you switch gear in and out? Please elaborate on this.

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When some members take it a step further, and attempt to belittle other members, for claiming that they can and have heard differences, during such tests and outside of them, doing so by referencing ABX DBT’s without citation, and using such a reference (tag line) to infer or outright state that another member is: stupid, a fool, off their rocker, etc., it then becomes a purely derogatory personal attack, and not merely, conjecture.
Belittle? I didn't know that disagreeing with your claim of blind listening tests was belittling. Here's an example of belittling... "Your a pompous windbag who thinks too highly of yourself" . See the difference? Probably not.

I'm not interested in reading statistical analysis about DBT or SBT tests nor am I interested in how to test one's system subjectively. The point of DBT tests is to remove the subjective as much as possible.



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Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn last night?
I don't get your meaning?
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It's been a running cultural joke for a while now, originating from a hotel advertising campaign.

EDIT: not sure sure why the video is showing up as double.

Now I get it - Thanks!
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That's just intellectually dishonest, friend!
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post #173 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:21 PM
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You can't hear the difference between a midrange consumer level receiver and a set of tubed mono-blocks? As a long time hobbyist I find that hard to believe.
Did I say that is that or is the type of conjecture you AMO BRO like to spin? Again, what speakers are we driving? How loud are playing? ... Need some details.

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I'm guessing you didn't do that to select the equipment you use.
I ask you again... what makes you say that. Man up if you can

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...Belittle? I didn't know that disagreeing with your claim of blind listening tests was belittling. Here's an example of belittling... "Your a pompous windbag who thinks too highly of yourself" . See the difference? Probably not. ...
When you discount the opinion of others, that is belittling. If you have an opinion just state it, there is no need to discredit other opinions.
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[quote=3db;52038057]
Quote:
Pleaded? You think too highly of yourself my friend. Please stop the drama, drama-queen.
The drama is coming all from you. Citations and references are what's coming from me.

Quote:
What process did you use to arrive at your results in your preference for the Teac? How were your tests conducted? How did you switch gear in and out? Please elaborate on this.
False Statement: You got the wrong guy again - as I've already told you, I have not made any such comments - you have me confused for someone else.


Quote:
Belittle? I didn't know that disagreeing with your claim of blind listening tests was belittling. Here's an example of belittling... "Your a pompous windbag who thinks too highly of yourself" . See the difference? Probably not.
YOu are intentionally changing the context of my statements.

Here's what I actually stated:

These papers, do not hold ABX BDT’s up, as an end all, be all, means to ending the ’Great Debate’, nor do they strike down the existence of sonic differences.

Rather, they point out many foibles, ranging from intrinsic retention of human bias, statically errors, statically dogma, test hardware short comings, etc, and point to the fact while many can be greatly mitigated that there’s a need for the development of JUST ONE metric, and many strive to outline what they believe would be helpful in this regard (Yes, there is more than one, and each with their own or shared short-comings, when compared to that of another. This makes it imperative for one to cite which metric that they’re referring to).

When gents such as yourself flippantly, strive to support your assertions, by loosely suggesting or outright claim that ABX DBT’s have sorted all of this out, or can, and go on referring to such without outlining what variant of the metric they are referring to etc, they are producing nothing but conjecture.

When some members take it a step further, and attempt to belittle other members, for claiming that they can and have heard differences, during such tests and outside of them, doing so by referencing ABX DBT’s without citation, and using such a reference (tag line) to infer or outright state that another member is: stupid, a fool, off their rocker, etc., it then becomes a purely derogatory personal attack, and not merely, conjecture.

You have clearly defined yourself, as one that takes it past conjecture into the realm of personal attack!


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I'm not interested in reading statistical analysis about DBT or SBT tests nor am I interested in how to test one's system subjectively. The point of DBT tests is to remove the subjective as much as possible.
You should be interested, because you would quickly learn that these tests are PURELY SUBJECTIVE, and no one is trying to remove that element, not ever. They are attempting to remove bias, and other nullifying occurrences, which I have already noted in previous posts.

It is clear that you don't understand the subject matter at hand, nor that you are capable of properly attributing postings to the correct authors.

No drama, just the facts!

Last edited by AMO BRO; 04-05-2017 at 01:35 PM.
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post #177 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:34 PM
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I'm guessing you didn't do that to select the equipment you use.
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I ask you again... what makes you say that...
Just a guess. Can you share the DBTing methodology and results of your selection of your Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver?
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post #178 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:37 PM
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Did I say that is that or is the type of conjecture you AMO BRO like to spin? Again, what speakers are we driving? How loud are playing? ... Need some details.
Have you ever had any tubed mono blocks inserted into your system?

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post #179 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:40 PM
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I went for a beer and missed something.

What's the score?
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post #180 of 182 Old 04-05-2017, 01:45 PM
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I went for a beer and missed something. What's the score?
I think the subjectivists were on the ropes for a while but they are punching their way out.
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