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post #1 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Speaker placement in an open room

Help is needed.

My room is an open room (23x10x8) with one open side wall(7x7 and 3x3 openings at the end) and open back wall(3.5x4.5 in the middle).

Other than speaker upgrade, can I do anything to improve it other than blocking the openings (wouldn't get approval from wife without asking)?

Placement of bookshelf speakers with stands. Should they be placed differently than floorstanding? Currently use cardas method.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 03:58 PM
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I don't know of any specific rules but I'd place them pointing the long way and if there is a wall to the side of each speaker that would be preferred.
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MSchott View Post
I don't know of any specific rules but I'd place them pointing the long way and if there is a wall to the side of each speaker that would be preferred.
I'm in the other camp. To get the best imaging, the speakers need to be away from the front wall, sometimes that is 3 feet, or 6 feet, or even 10 feet and then again sometimes 2 feet is enough but that is rare. Also shooting the long way into a room is bad for the bass response so long wall placement is preferred but you can't always do that in a living space. Having no back wall or having no side walls is not a problem at all. Getting the speakers well into the room is the key.
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
Help is needed.

My room is an open room (23x10x8) with one open side wall(7x7 and 3x3 openings at the end) and open back wall(3.5x4.5 in the middle).

Other than speaker upgrade, can I do anything to improve it other than blocking the openings (wouldn't get approval from wife without asking)?

Placement of bookshelf speakers with stands. Should they be placed differently than floorstanding? Currently use cardas method.

Thanks.
What type of speaker are we talking about?? Some benefit having a lot of room some need to be closer to a wall.
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
I'm in the other camp. To get the best imaging, the speakers need to be away from the front wall, sometimes that is 3 feet, or 6 feet, or even 10 feet and then again sometimes 2 feet is enough but that is rare. Also shooting the long way into a room is bad for the bass response so long wall placement is preferred but you can't always do that in a living space. Having no back wall or having no side walls is not a problem at all. Getting the speakers well into the room is the key.

Yep, yep, yep. I also do wide wall when I can as I do here.
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

The bookshelf speakers are Axiom M22s (Single 1" Tweeter and Dual 5.25"Woofer) with stands. I have a powered subwoofer as well. Currently the speakers are placed 4 feet away from the front wall pointing to the back wall.

I don't think that I can place the speakers along the long wall since the short wall is not long enough. Maybe I should give it a try?
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Yep, yep, yep. I also do wide wall when I can as I do here.
If you place the speakers against the long wall, then how far away from the long wall would you place the speakers?
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
Help is needed.

My room is an open room (23x10x8) with one open side wall(7x7 and 3x3 openings at the end) and open back wall(3.5x4.5 in the middle).

Other than speaker upgrade, can I do anything to improve it other than blocking the openings (wouldn't get approval from wife without asking)?

Placement of bookshelf speakers with stands. Should they be placed differently than floorstanding? Currently use cardas method.

Thanks.

"Currently use cardas method"

I'm out into the room even further than the Cardas, but that's where I start.

<-------

That did work though, but tweaked yet beyond that.
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
If you place the speakers against the long wall, then how far away from the long wall would you place the speakers?

You're in a tougher spot with 23x10 so it may not be practical or possible. If your room was something like 23x16 or so that might be a different story. I'm in 18.8 x 16.2' and wide wall did much more for imaging, but then I've had nightmares with the bass with a null at 50-70 hz and peaks on both sides.


Pics or a diagram of the room might help. I'm not sure I understand where the openings are
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
...The bookshelf speakers are Axiom M22s (Single 1" Tweeter and Dual 5.25"Woofer) with stands. I have a powered subwoofer as well. Currently the speakers are placed 4 feet away from the front wall pointing to the back wall...
Is that working? Don't be afraid of pulling them out more.

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post #11 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 07:24 PM
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I'm in the other camp. To get the best imaging, the speakers need to be away from the front wall, sometimes that is 3 feet, or 6 feet, or even 10 feet and then again sometimes 2 feet is enough but that is rare. Also shooting the long way into a room is bad for the bass response so long wall placement is preferred but you can't always do that in a living space. Having no back wall or having no side walls is not a problem at all. Getting the speakers well into the room is the key.
He has only 10' of depth. How far into the room can the speakers be when that's all you have? Maybe I'm not clear on your recommendation. His problem is the narrowness of the room.

My listening room is 20' x 12' with an 8' doorwall in the middle of one of the 20' walls. The ceiling is pitched. But I have a sofa bisecting the room and is where I sit for optimal listening. The rear of my tower speakers are 18" from the front wall and the front of the speakers are 34" from that wall. They each sit at the center of the tweeter 28.5" from the side walls and are toed in slightly. Terrific imaging. Bass is ok but the speakers are only rated to 38Hz and I use a tube integrated amp.
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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It's hard to tell what is workable without knowing everything but optimizing what is workable is the idea. It sounds like you have your system under control and I can't argue with that.

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post #13 of 26 Old 03-20-2017, 08:22 PM
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It's hard to tell what is workable without knowing everything but optimizing what is workable is the idea. It sounds like you have your system under control and I can't argue with that.
Thanks. I used to have speakers in front of the door wall but that no longer is feasible due to larger speakers and the usage of the room as living and family space. The current setup is great.
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... The current setup is great.
That is all that matters.

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post #15 of 26 Old 03-21-2017, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again for all the help

I attached the layout of my house. I am wondering if I should put the speakers in the long narrow living room or in the family room where I can integrate with home theater.

The family room is quite open on the right side with 2 windows. The speakers would be pulled out a lot and possibly block walking which is not wife-children-friendly

Any suggestions are appreciated.
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No listening chair in the sweet spot?

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post #17 of 26 Old 03-21-2017, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
Thanks again for all the help

I attached the layout of my house. I am wondering if I should put the speakers in the long narrow living room or in the family room where I can integrate with home theater.

The family room is quite open on the right side with 2 windows. The speakers would be pulled out a lot and possibly block walking which is not wife-children-friendly

Any suggestions are appreciated.

If you can easily try along the long wall without ridiculous effort, It might be worth a try. Expect to improve imaging / soundstage, but expect to have more trouble getting the bass right. Just stay away from the 25% and 50% point as those are known nulls.

I do near field with my little stand mounts with the speakers 5' or 6' out from the front wall, but my MLP is no where near the rear wall. Makes imaging easy, but makes the bass hard to get right.


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post #18 of 26 Old 03-21-2017, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Long wall placement might be tough considering the narrow depth

I don't worry about bass too much since it comes from the sub mainly.
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No listening chair in the sweet spot?
Knee down to enjoy
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post #20 of 26 Old 03-21-2017, 02:29 PM
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Long wall placement might be tough considering the narrow depth

I don't worry about bass too much since it comes from the sub mainly.

Yep, it would be tough in this instance. It's too bad that wall behind your sofa is there.
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post #21 of 26 Old 03-21-2017, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep, it would be tough in this instance. It's too bad that wall behind your sofa is there.
How do you think my family room? maybe it is OK for the home theater, not for music system? Thx.
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Originally Posted by Rock1969 View Post
How do you think my family room? maybe it is OK for the home theater, not for music system? Thx.
Experiment until you get the best result. One little known trick often used by audio engineer Bruno Putzeys is to try the speakers toed in 45 degrees but at a listening distance from each speaker roughly the same as the distance between them. You are then off axis about 15 degrees from each. This a) gives a much bigger sweet spot: as you move to the left you are more on axis with the right speaker and more off axis with the left one you are closer to, and vice versa, and b) it can help eliminate early side reflections from walls (and other surfaces if present).
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Experiment until you get the best result. One little known trick often used by audio engineer Bruno Putzeys is to try the speakers toed in 45 degrees but at a listening distance from each speaker roughly the same as the distance between them. You are then off axis about 15 degrees from each. This a) gives a much bigger sweet spot: as you move to the left you are more on axis with the right speaker and more off axis with the left one you are closer to, and vice versa, and b) it can help eliminate early side reflections from walls (and other surfaces if present).

This way you don't have any sweet spot as the imaging becomes a more consistent mess all across the listening area. What this does is dramatically increase crosstalk in that you're getting right channel location information at the left ear milliseconds behind the arrival at the right ear and of course left to the right too. I have to admit that I'd never tried this type of positioning before until I saw this post. Just tried it with three of my systems with conventional 'piston' type drivers, and it just ruins image specificity. I didn't try it with the ESLs because it takes too much time to get them back where they're right again. Plus, they are their own animal with their own set of rules being a dipole line source.

My recommendation is to toe out so that the speakers are aimed at a point well behind the listener's head, thereby greatly reducing the right channel location information arriving at the listeners left ear just milliseconds after the right. You don't want to totally eliminate crosstalk (you can't anyway) as that would sound strange too, but reducing it a bunch isn't a bad idea. Audio designers/engineers go to great effort elsewhere in the audio chain to reduce crosstalk and for a reason.
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
This way you don't have any sweet spot as the imaging becomes a more consistent mess all across the listening area. What this does is dramatically increase crosstalk in that you're getting right channel location information at the left ear milliseconds behind the arrival at the right ear and of course left to the right too. I have to admit that I'd never tried this type of positioning before until I saw this post. Just tried it with three of my systems with conventional 'piston' type drivers, and it just ruins image specificity. I didn't try it with the ESLs because it takes too much time to get them back where they're right again. Plus, they are their own animal with their own set of rules being a dipole line source.

My recommendation is to toe out so that the speakers are aimed at a point well behind the listener's head, thereby greatly reducing the right channel location information arriving at the listeners left ear just milliseconds after the right. You don't want to totally eliminate crosstalk (you can't anyway) as that would sound strange too, but reducing it a bunch isn't a bad idea. Audio designers/engineers go to great effort elsewhere in the audio chain to reduce crosstalk and for a reason.
Saying you don't get a sweet spot that way is nonsense - if you are sitting an equal distance from each speaker in an isosceles triangle the sound arrives at each ear at the same time. Just because it didn't work in your room doesn't mean it's not worth trying. And it definitely does increase the size of the sweet spot for the reasons I gave.
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Saying you don't get a sweet spot that way is nonsense - if you are sitting an equal distance from each speaker in an isosceles triangle the sound arrives at each ear at the same time. Just because it didn't work in your room doesn't mean it's not worth trying. And it definitely does increase the size of the sweet spot for the reasons I gave.
"isosceles triangle the sound arrives at each ear at the same time"

Which I don't. I listen near field. Still though, the second part of your statement is exactly why I wouldn't want to do this. You don't want location information from the right speaker/channel arriving at the left year, or at least not much of it. Impossible to eliminate all of it nor would you want to.

You do get a very wide 'sweet spot', but the spot isn't very sweet. It's a mess with regards to image specificity. I have four rooms all different sizes and shapes, all with different brands of speakers and associated equipment. Made a mess in all of them, well, the three of the four that I tired. Not going to try the ESLs for the reason I mentioned above.

Might work somewhere with something, but I can't imagine why it would. Sure, it's worth trying as I just did. Didn't work or come close to working for me.

Anyway, much written on the subject, and I'd be happy to argue endlessly (aren't all arguments on AVS) with you, but for now, it's a nice Saturday morning and unseasonably warm so Cars and Coffee beckons.

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Here's a better explanation than I had time to write or find this morning:


"Conventional stereo (and its offshoots 5.1, 7.1, etc.) creates an illusion, akin to an optical illusion, that does a fair job of localizing sound. But it does not do an excellent job. Consider a typical home stereo system with the speakers and the listener forming an equilateral triangle—that is, the speakers are separated by a 60-degree angle as viewed by the listener. This stereo system does several things that prevent lifelike sound localization. More complex systems such as 5.1, 7.1, etc. have the same problems. The problems are acoustic crosstalk, comb filter effects, incorrect pinna cues, incorrect ILD and ITD cues, and inconsistent localization cues.

Acoustic Crosstalk. You are listening to a live violinist playing directly in front of you.Both ears hear the violin. The sound at your left ear is similar to but not exactly the same as the sound at your right ear. There are many reasons for the slight sound differences but they are not important now. What is important is that the live violin has produced two versions, two presentations, of the violin sound – one at your left ear and one at your right ear. This is OK because your ear/brain has spent all its life learning to fuse two sound presentations such as this into one image—so what you perceive now is a single, live violin. Now consider a typical stereo recording of the same violinist. The recording is engineered so that the violinist will appear to be located directly in front of you, halfway between the two speakers. To accomplish this, the two channels of the recording will have similar loudness and will arrive at your ears at about the same time. The problem is that your left ear hears both speakers and your right ear hears both speakers—and the four sound presentations are not exactly alike in level, arrival time, or frequency response. Your ear/brain now has four versions to fuse into a single violin. If your left ear heard only the left speaker and your right ear heard only the right speaker, then your ear/brain would be back in the familiar territory in which it must fuse just two presentations into a single image. The trouble is that your right ear hears the left speaker and your left ear hears the right speaker. This is called acoustic crosstalk, where each ear hears the speaker on the opposite side. Your ear/brain did not evolve to deal with four presentations of the same sound source.

Crosstalk produces incorrect head shadows for center images, reducing the lifelikeness of the image. Head shadow refers to the reduction of mid and high frequencies as sound travels around and over the head to the far ear. When listening to a live instrument directly in front of you, sound travels to the ears with only a small impact from the intervening fleshy part of the face, that is, with only a small head shadow. In contrast, when stereo speakers play similar signals to produce an image directly in front of you—a center image—head shadow is large because sound from a speaker must travel around much of the head to reach the far ear. The result for center images is a tonal balance with less mid and high frequency energy reaching the ears than in real life. One can eliminate side-speaker head shadow by eliminating side-speaker crosstalk (difficult) or by moving the speakers close together (easy). When speakers are close together, side-speaker head shadow cannot occur. Moreover, it is easy to cancel crosstalk when speakers are close together. When this is done, the sonic stage spreads out well beyond the confines of the close speakers—and this wide stage will have lifelike center images.

Music systems using 5.1 and 7.1 formats have even worse crosstalk than conventional stereo because they use three front speakers: left, right, and center. If a recording is mastered so that all three front speakers produce the sound of the same solo violin, your left ear will hear 3 speakers and your right ear will hear three speakers—creating a total of six different presentations of the same violin plus lots of excess bass for the larger instruments. Pity the unfortunate ear/brain that must deal with this chaos. Music systems that use three front speakers are as fundamentally flawed as the original two-speaker stereo triangle. In 5.1 movies, however, the center speaker is usually mono and mostly dialog so that crosstalk does not occur"

http://www.ambiophonics.org/Tutorial...ics_Part1.html


There are many more, and better, more thorough than the above, but I have to cycle first and then I can look later tonight.
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