High end audio has become obsolete...... - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 02:42 AM
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post #302 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 02:44 AM
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Qualcomm aptX
Aptx been around since 80's it was originally developed for radio broadcasting. Qualcomm is just it's latest owner.

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post #303 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
... or the 60's with a AM transistor radio and perhaps an earphone.
up, my first audio system circa 1962
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #304 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
well it isnt as bad as it was in the 90's when kids sat in their cars to listen to music or 80's when sat on the curb
you mean in the 70 when kids sat in their cars to listen to music or 60's when sat on the curb.....

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #305 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
up, my first audio system circa 1962

Those definitely were the days. I can still remember the days of one of my earlier road trips flying across the Trans Canadian Highway at more than double the speed limit with my (mad man) Muntz 4 track under dash unit on as loud as it could get in my 1962 Thunderchicken. (My 66 was the first I had with a factory installed 8 track IIRC). Running on V rated Michelin XVRs and Cibie low beam with aircraft landing lights as high beams, I was ready for speed and speed I did with the speedo in the 5:30 position. (a slide scanned to file so not very clear)


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post #306 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Those definitely were the days. I can still remember the days of one of my earlier road trips flying across the Trans Canadian Highway at more than double the speed limit with my (mad man) Muntz 4 track under dash unit on as loud as it could get in my 1962 Thunderchicken. (My 66 was the first I had with a factory installed 8 track IIRC). Running on V rated Michelin XVRs and Cibie low beam with aircraft landing lights as high beams, I was ready for speed and speed I did with the speedo in the 5:30 position. (a slide scanned to file so not very clear)


understand

The reason I know I had that transistor in 1962 is because I recall listening to my favorite song on it while walking to school, The Monster Mash.
What do you expect an 8 year old to listen to on his way to school?

Speaking of school, I walked a good half mile to school each day. Today, do any kids walk to school?

In my oldest daughter's neighborhood, all the parent meet on the corner to put their kid on the bus. No joke, ALL drive to the corner. Some live literally two houses away. Maybe 100 feet.
You just can't make this stuff up.

Yeah, certainly in 1962 no one was suggesting that my transistor sounded as good as dad's audio system.

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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #307 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Murderousone View Post
No articles posted, now or in the future are going to change my view point of what's appealing sonically to my ear.
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Been saying this since the thread started, my ears are the most important factor when it comes to what sounds good to me.
Hi,

I have been reading this thread intermittently since it started. Sometimes I have just skimmed parts of it, so I may have missed someone else making the point I am about to make.

I don't believe that anyone should try to convince you that what you hear is not valid, or that you don't have a perfect right to prefer what you prefer. You are not only entitled to your opinion and preferences, but they are inherently unassailable as far as I am concerned, because no one else hears exactly as you do physiologically, neurologically, or experientially. So, to a large extent, this thread has constituted a pointless debate if the purpose of it was for you to offer and defend your opinion, while others challenged that opinion.

But, don't you think it's fair to extend that same prerogative of preference and opinion to others as well? There is good evidence that we don't all hear (and interpret what we hear) in exactly the same way, just as we don't all see and enjoy colors in the same way. Why would we all expect to have exactly the same experiences or preferences with respect to speakers? If you say that your speakers and subs in conjunction sound as good to you as any speakers you have ever heard, I accept that. If someone else says that he hears differences or nuances with some speakers that you may not be hearing, will you not also accept that?

This debate about speakers and speaker quality has raged for many years, over many threads and forums, and it's just as meaningful (and pointless) as a debate about art---what each of us sees, and what each of us likes or dislikes in what he sees. You expressed an opinion. As such, it is neither true nor false and should not be addressed as if it is. It is simply a personal opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to have and to express. But, it's no more than that either.

Regards,
Mike
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post #308 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 10:35 AM
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Actually, the overwhelming evidence shows that most people prefer the same qualities in a speaker. And apparently most of those that fall outside that have consistently inconsistent impressions.
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post #309 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
... that have consistently inconsistent impressions.

I find that redundantly redundant.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist. )



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #310 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 11:12 AM
 
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Agree.

But then don't post that your speakers are the best if you can't quantify and qualify.




well, that's telling me.



and the objective, science based reason for this proclamation?

a second question, where is it you audition all the available speakers in the marketplace?

Thanks!

Really objective science based reason???? Come on there isn't any when you are evaluating speakers since no two individuals even identical twins will hear the same sounds from these speakers etc. Listening to music is a psycho acoustic experience for lack of a better. Your own hearing, your room, your pre amp, amp and source will all have an effect on how the speakers sound to you. Also there should only be one set of speakers in the listening room. Basically it comes down to is what makes your tap your foot and get involved with the music. You can't measure this. Thats why Harry Pearson started TAS! If I spent the day at the range with hearing protection I am not going to critically evaluate speakers on the way home. I drive 3hours to listen to speakers each way.

BTW TAS in their March 2017 has a whole list of best speakers that aren't quantified or qualified in your opinion. AI dont believe I ever said my Maggie 3.7s or Vienna Acoustics were the best.

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post #311 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 11:38 AM
 
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MQA For an interesting counter point on MQA being the best thing to happen to digital since CD check out the Lin website.
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post #312 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 11:44 AM
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I have the Revel M16s to pair with my F206s; I thought they are excellent speakers under $1k and I bought an open box for $650 that were never used. A true bargain for a change
Yes Revel has a great Concerta2 line better than many speakers costing five times as much! Wish they offered more colors!


I can see high end with exotic drivers like beryllium, diamond coated and exotic wood finish but to be honest the KEFLS50, Revel Concerta2, and the ELAC unifi are 98% of the sound unless you have a massive room and listen at ear bleeding levels!! The just go pro with JBL they supply concert and theaters

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post #313 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 12:11 PM
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Agree WSE; Revel is 97-98% as good as many higher end speakers. And I love the Piano Black finish on my M16s and F206s; timeless look & look awesome with no grille covers on

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parsound P5 Preamp & A21 amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polks LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #314 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Going back to the OP's original query;
the high-end is not obsolete, it has always been a niche' market, Hi-Fi is certainly obsolete. It died when the iPod/mp3 came into existence.

Today's population no longer [I]heads to their stereo systems upon coming home from work,[/I] play etc., like generations past. Sad.
This is exactly what I do, with a martini or a single malt The kids have the TV, watching Youtube videos of people playing video games
I have enjoyed reading this long thread, and we come back to the basic conclusion that high end audio will always have a market, but not everyone wants or needs it to be happy. I have a modest 2.1 system for music because my room acoustics do not lend themselves to what improvements I MAY hear with a better system, and I can't justify the expense at this point in my life. Would I like to try? Sure I would! Am I happy with my Cambridge Audio and KEF setup? Sure I am!

I think the OP made a statement that reflected his personal opinion and perceptions, and titled it as an absolute statement rather than a question for debate. As has been stated several times, price does not always equate with quality, and enjoyment is highly subjective. I don't think anyone would argue that getting speakers that one enjoys at a good price is value for money and a good decision. Telling others that they should not buy something they enjoy or that they cannot enjoy it is unfounded and unreasonable (not to mention rude).
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post #315 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 01:01 PM
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I find that redundantly redundant.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist. )
I'm positively positive you are correct .
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post #316 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 01:25 PM
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Actually, the overwhelming evidence shows that most people prefer the same qualities in a speaker. And apparently most of those that fall outside that have consistently inconsistent impressions.
Harman is one of the only companies that did proper research and bothered to publish their figures. Dr. Toole did all the research (I believe he's posted here) and this was the conclusion. There are plenty of blogs and published papers with more data than you could possibly need all proving this. They used to build speakers after rigorous blind testing, as a result had some real gems like the Infiniti P363 (discontinued, god knows why ) which supposedly beat out much higher priced speakers.

There's a reason there hasn't been a single blind test or GtG in recorded human history where a higher priced speaker/receiver/xxx was conclusively better than its much cheaper 'mass market' alternatives.

Audio is scientific. Human preferences are to a very high degree scientific. All of this has been studied and nothing will change the facts but companies still spend $$$ on marketing to fool consumers and people still post on AVS
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post #317 of 515 Old 07-28-2017, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Zcars View Post
This is exactly what I do, with a martini or a single malt The kids have the TV, watching Youtube videos of people playing video games
I have enjoyed reading this long thread, and we come back to the basic conclusion that high end audio will always have a market, but not everyone wants or needs it to be happy. I have a modest 2.1 system for music because my room acoustics do not lend themselves to what improvements I MAY hear with a better system, and I can't justify the expense at this point in my life. Would I like to try? Sure I would! Am I happy with my Cambridge Audio and KEF setup? Sure I am!

I think the OP made a statement that reflected his personal opinion and perceptions, and titled it as an absolute statement rather than a question for debate. As has been stated several times, price does not always equate with quality, and enjoyment is highly subjective. I don't think anyone would argue that getting speakers that one enjoys at a good price is value for money and a good decision. Telling others that they should not buy something they enjoy or that they cannot enjoy it is unfounded and unreasonable (not to mention rude).
Very nice! Zcars
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post #318 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 05:48 AM
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but companies still spend $$$ on marketing to fool consumers and people still post on AVS

you mean like sneaker companies, clothing companies, car companies, food companies.....

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

ELJR's "listening" blog.
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post #319 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
Harman is one of the only companies that did proper research and bothered to publish their figures. Dr. Toole did all the research (I believe he's posted here) and this was the conclusion. There are plenty of blogs and published papers with more data than you could possibly need all proving this. They used to build speakers after rigorous blind testing, as a result had some real gems like the Infiniti P363 (discontinued, god knows why ) which supposedly beat out much higher priced speakers.

There's a reason there hasn't been a single blind test or GtG in recorded human history where a higher priced speaker/receiver/xxx was conclusively better than its much cheaper 'mass market' alternatives.

Audio is scientific. Human preferences are to a very high degree scientific. All of this has been studied and nothing will change the facts but companies still spend $$$ on marketing to fool consumers and people still post on AVS

"There's a reason there hasn't been a single blind test or GtG in recorded human history where a higher priced speaker/receiver/xxx was conclusively better than its much cheaper 'mass market' alternatives"

Just laughable.
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post #320 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 07:45 AM
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PSB, Paradigm and other Canadian speaker makers use the government run NRC Department of Acoustics. One of the most advanced facilities in the world.
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post #321 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
you mean like sneaker companies, clothing companies, car companies, food companies.....
Yes, all are selling illusion to one extent or another, which many of us don't know or always consciously acknowledge. And too many audiophiles seem to think they are excluded from this type of manipulation; many insist that all of their purchasing choices are sonic ones at the heart of it all.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. ~ Richard P. Feynman
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post #322 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 10:44 AM
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PSB, Paradigm and other Canadian speaker makers use the government run NRC Department of Acoustics. One of the most advanced facilities in the world.
I am philosophically speaking, pretty much an "empiricist" and so highly value the scientific method. Though I love some high end audio, I find nonsense to be everywhere in the hobby. I'm all for blind/double blind tests as well (I find lots of the excuses audiophiles make for not passing blind tests to be quite weak). In fact I cured myself of spending extra money on high end cables (speaker, AC) through some blind testing. That said, it's not necessarily convenient to turn everything into a controlled experiment, so I don't mind also indulging in purchases that are perhaps on the borders of audible or not. I just wouldn't go making any strong objective claims on behalf of such gear.

That out of the way, I find it interesting that the speaker products from very reputable NRC-oriented companies, like Paradigm, PSB (and some Harmon products that are designed with blind testing)....leave me pretty much cold. Whenever I hear their products (and I lived with a nice pair of PSB speakers for a while, given to me by my work), they don't do it for me - I find them sort of tonally boring (and real life sound is anything but boring). And that's not to say that I have a love for colored sound specifically, as I like any number of speakers that measure quite nice and flat - e.g. I have Thiel 3.7 speakers at the moment, Waveform which measure amazingly well, and have had numerous other speakers that do well in the measurements category. Yet none of them truly sound exactly alike.

I don't think audio engineering is sorcery, nor do I think that the subjective aspect of listening is unmeasurable or unquantifiable - subjectivity is measured in many fields of science. So I'm not taking a position that when we listen we are hearing stuff that can't be measured, so measurements or systematic investigation will never predict listener response. Harmon Kardon already has a lot of data in that direction.

Which is, again, one reason why I find it somewhat surprising that I don't immediately take to the sound of speakers designed by HK, Paradigm, PSB etc. (The new Paradigm Persona line sound like a breakthrough for that company and I wonder if they would appeal to me...though I couldn't afford them).
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post #323 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Every speaker, to me, sounds better in a room full of windows rather than an acoustically perfect dedicated listening space in a basement.
I agree, though I tried for both

For me aesthetics are important to..well...aesthetic experiences, listening to music being one of them. I'm frankly put off by the look of a great many audiophile set ups, where it seems they want to make sure they are looking at every inch of technology they paid for, so every speaker driver is bare, every cable, amp, power conditioner etc is on display around the speakers, and often enough in a bunker-like room. I personally find it a distraction and a turn off. And though some of those rooms can feature equipment that has been neatly dressed, a lot of audiophile set ups look like rooms only a young bachelor could get away with - aesthetics be damned.

For me, my high end audio listening was always most pleasurable in my front living room, which is bright with nice bay windows and a nice view on to our street. When I had to re-design the room to also accommodate a projector and screen, I had to switch the room seating arrangement 180 degrees, which meant the listening/viewing sofa was moved near the bay windows, but and the speakers in front of the long wall in the room.
To my chagrin, what had been a room that sounded great with every speaker large or small, now sounded fairly awful. It was just about enough to make me think I'd have to abandon the joy of 2 channel listening.

But then I did a careful renovation, enlisting the aid of an acoustician, with room treatment incorporated and hidden, and including curtains that can alter and control room reflectivity, and have ended up with a beautiful room both aesthetically and sonically. Music has never sounded better. I have a bunch of controlled room lighting schemes, including colored lights on the projection screen between the 2 channel speakers which do subtle color combinations, which really set a cool mood for listening.

The downside is that it took some money to do, but I did end up with exactly what I wanted: a room on the main floor with nice big windows (not bunkered in a basement), easily accessible and used all the time, along with streamlined aesthetics (no source gear, almost no cables in view), super comfortable, with great acoustics! It's been a total joy to use the room for the last 7 years since it was renoed.
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post #324 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Yes, all are selling illusion to one extent or another, which many of us don't know or always consciously acknowledge. And too many audiophiles seem to think they are excluded from this type of manipulation; many insist that all of their purchasing choices are sonic ones at the heart of it all.
Good post.

We all feel we are immune to manipulation. Of all kinds.

Truth is, none of us are. Depends on our tribe, our wants and what we have been told over and over.

If I told you the cost of a Nike sneaker, before all corporate expenses, just the actual cost of the goods, you would not believe me.

Wire companies have nothing on Nike.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

ELJR's "listening" blog.
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post #325 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I agree, though I tried for both

For me aesthetics are important to..well...aesthetic experiences, listening to music being one of them. I'm frankly put off by the look of a great many audiophile set ups, where it seems they want to make sure they are looking at every inch of technology they paid for, so every speaker driver is bare, every cable, amp, power conditioner etc is on display around the speakers, and often enough in a bunker-like room. I personally find it a distraction and a turn off. And though some of those rooms can feature equipment that has been neatly dressed, a lot of audiophile set ups look like rooms only a young bachelor could get away with - aesthetics be damned.

For me, my high end audio listening was always most pleasurable in my front living room, which is bright with nice bay windows and a nice view on to our street. When I had to re-design the room to also accommodate a projector and screen, I had to switch the room seating arrangement 180 degrees, which meant the listening/viewing sofa was moved near the bay windows, but and the speakers in front of the long wall in the room.
To my chagrin, what had been a room that sounded great with every speaker large or small, now sounded fairly awful. It was just about enough to make me think I'd have to abandon the joy of 2 channel listening.

But then I did a careful renovation, enlisting the aid of an acoustician, with room treatment incorporated and hidden, and including curtains that can alter and control room reflectivity, and have ended up with a beautiful room both aesthetically and sonically. Music has never sounded better. I have a bunch of controlled room lighting schemes, including colored lights on the projection screen between the 2 channel speakers which do subtle color combinations, which really set a cool mood for listening.

The downside is that it took some money to do, but I did end up with exactly what I wanted: a room on the main floor with nice big windows (not bunkered in a basement), easily accessible and used all the time, along with streamlined aesthetics (no source gear, almost no cables in view), super comfortable, with great acoustics! It's been a total joy to use the room for the last 7 years since it was renoed.
Great post, enjoy!

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

ELJR's "listening" blog.
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post #326 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 01:08 PM
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If I told you the cost of a Nike sneaker, before all corporate expenses, just the actual cost of the goods, you would not believe me.
Only Nike sneakers? C'mon........ it's everything. Believe me.



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post #327 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 01:12 PM
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Only Nike sneakers? C'mon........ it's everything. Believe me.
LOL

no kidding, but Nike is worse than most, not because they have longer markup but because their advertising is so expensive and extensive

Plus, I don't like Apple and Nike so I dump on them, honestly, when ever I can.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #328 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 01:50 PM
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Personal choice. I still wear Keds.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #329 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 03:12 PM
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Plus, I don't like Apple and Nike so I dump on them, honestly, when ever I can.
Good thing that you're an objectivist, right?
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post #330 of 515 Old 07-29-2017, 03:35 PM
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It is not just audio.
It is all aspects of life.
The middle class has less and less to spend.

Take a look at your local Home Depot or Lowes... and the quality of anything they offer is not good at all.
Look at windows... Companies making garbage vinyl windows for sub $250 are better off than the Alpen and Zola type window makers.

People are cutting costs all over. There is not much pride left in the US.

People would rather buy a Hyundai with a 10 year warranty and at the dealer constantly than a Toyota with 3 year warranty that almost never HAS to go to the dealer.
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