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post #1 of 55 Old 09-04-2017, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Which stereo amplifier??

Hi im looking for best budget stereo amplifier to match with a jamo c93. Ill buy it on amazon europe (uk or de). I dont want to spend to much, i ll prefer a one who has for a subwoofer out and optical in. Already i have a yamaha 479 so the stereo has to better that the yamaha offers.
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post #2 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 07:18 AM
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The Onkyo TX-8270 fits the bill.

Probably the only budget stereo receiver around with digital bass management, not just a sub out jack. (The distinction is important.)

Also packs a host of digital connectivity options.
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post #3 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
The Onkyo TX-8270 fits the bill.

Probably the only budget stereo receiver around with digital bass management, not just a sub out jack. (The distinction is important.)

Also packs a host of digital connectivity options.
And if i want a simple cheap integrated amplifier what will be the best choice???
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post #4 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Trunksleo View Post
And if i want a simple cheap integrated amplifier what will be the best choice???
Define CHEAP? Give us a working budget?

If you are in the UK/EU, you probably won't find a better full featured stereo amp that this -

SuperFi - Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver, 80w/ch, Bluetooth, Network Streaming, DAC, Phono In, Sub Out, .... £380 -

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-17403-yam...-receiver.aspx

This is certainly available in the UK/EU, but I'm not sure if the EU can match UK prices which are pleasantly low. But it is a common product and you should have no problem finding it near you.

Yamaha does have other Network Receivers, but they do not have Phono Inputs, and only ONE Optical and ONE Coaxial input.

Yamaha RN402 Network Receiver - £350 -

https://www.richersounds.com/yamaha-rn402d-blk.html

For the small difference in price, the Yamaha RN602 is probably the best choice.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #5 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Trunksleo View Post
And if i want a simple cheap integrated amplifier what will be the best choice???
Probably best to stick with what you have now then. Any "simple cheap" integrated will lack bass management capability (LPF/HPF) and would be a backwards step.

I don't buy into the self-serving consumer audio myth that "dedicated" electronics are mandatory for better 2-channel performance.
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post #6 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Probably best to stick with what you have now then. Any "simple cheap" integrated will lack bass management capability (LPF/HPF) and would be a backwards step.

I don't buy into the self-serving consumer audio myth that "dedicated" electronics are mandatory for better 2-channel performance.
Thanks. I get it. My gear now its a yamaha 479, klipsch rc62II, klipsch rb15, klipsch rw10d. My idea its find a way to improve stereo music so i bought the jamo c93 to replace the front klipsch. Now i want to improve the stereo music on the receiver.
So im lost what to do. I want to keep the multichannel klipsch gear and have a decent 2ch gear with the jamo. Any ideas???
Btw im only use Spotify or tidal and a few flacs

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post #7 of 55 Old 09-06-2017, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Trunksleo View Post
Thanks. I get it. My gear now its a yamaha 479, klipsch rc62II, klipsch rb15, klipsch rw10d. My idea its find a way to improve stereo music so i bought the jamo c93 to replace the front klipsch. Now i want to improve the stereo music on the receiver.
So im lost what to do. I want to keep the multichannel klipsch gear and have a decent 2ch gear with the jamo. Any ideas???
Btw im only use Spotify or tidal and a few flacs
Make sure all your 2-channel content is at least Redbook CD quality (16 bit/44.1kHz PCM). Don't go mad though... there's little benefit paying more for higher resolution than that.

The biggest improvements can be made by paying some attention to your setup and room. Make sure your speakers and furniture is positioned correctly (plenty of tips here) and bone up on room acoustics. This is an excellent place to start: Audioholics | Room reflections & human adaptation for small room acoustics; as is anything by Dr. Floyd Toole.

Get some measuring gear and (free) software and identify what you're working with. This is a good place to start: Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs. If warranted, look at installing some targeted acoustic treatments.

There's no electronic miracle pill for this; it requires an investment in brainpower and a bit of elbow grease to make actual, worthwhile improvements.
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post #8 of 55 Old 09-12-2017, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Which is the best choice?? Yamaha 383 (for movies)+ yamaha as301 (for music) (two groups of speakers) or yamaha 683 or similar for music and movies (one group of speakers) ??
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post #9 of 55 Old 09-12-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Trunksleo View Post
Which is the best choice?? Yamaha 383 (for movies)+ yamaha as301 (for music) (two groups of speakers) or yamaha 683 or similar for music and movies (one group of speakers) ??
It looks like you don't listen (read) much and no detail was given about your budget, so I'll try to keep it simple.

In my experience a stereo amplifier sounds better than an AVR when it comes to music, specially in low budget rigs. That said, if you got your Jamo C93 yet I'd keep your old Yamaha and pair it with a nice stereo amplifier, if you didn't buy anything yet then forget the stereo amplifier and invest all your budget in better speakers, if possible try to audition them before to buy.

If we are in the first scenario, I never had the chance to audition the Jamo C93 but from what I got online they should have some emphasis on the low frequencies so I'd go for a balanced sounding amplifier like the Yamaha A-S501, just a bit on the bright side, Marantz PM6006, very good sound and price (I have the PM6005) and of course you should use the speaker level input on your subwoofer, or the Onkyo A-9050/A-9150; for something smaller look at Denon PMA50 and NAD D3020.

About the other amplifiers suggested, despite I am a Yamaha fan myself I don't really like the R-N series, those are the lower A-S models dressed in a fancy suit and sold at 50-100% more, IMHO not really a good deal. Same goes for that Onkyo, I admit I never auditioned it but I see too many red flags in the specs sheet, starting from the power rated at 1kHz, 1% THD and 6Ohm, sounds like an amplifier with a good pre section filled with digital finess but poor output stage.

Last edited by Kha-Jinn; Today at 04:00 AM.
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post #10 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kha-Jinn View Post
In my experience a stereo amplifier sounds better than an AVR when it comes to music, specially in low budget rigs.
In my experience, stereo amplifiers sounded different from AVR when listened casually with levels unmatched and sight seen. Then when the levels are matched and sight blocked (double blind), the sound was indistinguishable.
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post #11 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 12:43 PM
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In my experience, stereo amplifiers sounded different from AVR when listened casually with levels unmatched and sight seen. Then when the levels are matched and sight blocked (double blind), the sound was indistinguishable.
So all amplifiers in the world sound the same? Mmhh... I beg to differ.
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post #12 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 12:48 PM
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In my experience, stereo amplifiers sounded different from AVR when listened casually with levels unmatched and sight seen. Then when the levels are matched and sight blocked (double blind), the sound was indistinguishable.
You have never made any such comparisons, either "casually" or "double blind." As you have been asked repeatedly without any response, which specific brands and models did you compare via both methods?
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post #13 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 01:21 PM
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Here we go again!

If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #14 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 01:24 PM
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well most get an amp to add more channels or increase power...so it really doesnt matter if they sound the same in most cases. what matters is you get the extra channels or increase in power

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post #15 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 03:32 PM
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Here we go again!
It's what we call a tape loop.
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post #16 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 03:47 PM
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Or... Chrono-Synclastic Infundibulum
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If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #17 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 03:54 PM
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well do all amps measure the same if they sound the same? ya know after you get done double "expletive" all of the gear and ....yea after all that, will they measure the same too?

so in the end all amps sound and measure the same so now we just buy on price or looks...I feel like a whore.
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post #18 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LFEer View Post
To confirm that, I would have to test all amplifiers in the world but I haven't. For you to contradict, you would have to confirm what I've said first but you haven't.
According to what you said it should work like this:
  • I choose a random stereo amplifier, let's say a McIntosh MA9000 because I have a thing for cyan VU meters;
  • I choose a random AVR, a shiny 7.1 Pyle PT980AUH will do the trick;
  • I connect them both to a switch connected to an easy load like a pair of Apogee Scintilla;
  • I match the volume on both amplifier;
  • I cover the electronics for a blind test;
  • ...
  • profit.
I'm sure I'll hear the same thing on both sides, the sirens of the Fire Department coming to the rescue.

My friend, I'm sure on the high side of the market some AVRs and stereo amplifiers matched to very easy loads don't sound that different at all, but when the load becomes an issue and/or we are talking about low end products the differences are more than noticeable.
Just remember, Watts are NOT related to quality.
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post #19 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 08:39 PM
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i cant explain why my speakers want 2.xx ohms and I cant explain why my avr at 1xx watts just doesnt sound the same as my aftermarket 1xx watt amp....must be magic or i am just stupid....

but it all measures the same...ok, buy the stuff that measures/works...nobody is harping at ya

i just say that if you have speakers with very low impedance demands(mine get below 3)....at decent volume, amps can be an issue....double blind...i only can compare old adcom and old sae and old macintosh vs my new avr's of onkyo, yamaha, marantz....and newer nad amps...yes big difference.

maybe its just the hum...
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post #20 of 55 Old 09-14-2017, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunksleo View Post
Which is the best choice?? Yamaha 383 (for movies)+ yamaha as301 (for music) (two groups of speakers) or yamaha 683 or similar for music and movies (one group of speakers) ??
Toss a coin mate! You're not going to make any actual improvement in your music listening by swapping out one perfectly good, non-clipping piece of solid state electronics for another perfectly good, non-clipping piece of solid state electronics that costs more.

Of course, your expectations, pump priming by the dealer, the thrill of new ownership and your resulting heightened mood, along with the transient nature of echoic (true audio) memory will almost certainly mean you perceive a difference (and interpret it as an improvement) when you hook it all up and let 'er rip. If that's perfectly fine with you, have at it! Go and buy an "amp for music" and have fun doing it.

On the other hand, if you want actual, worthwhile improvements to your music listening, save up for better speakers &/or get cracking on some of the suggestions in post 7.

Good luck with it all!
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post #21 of 55 Old 09-14-2017, 02:07 AM
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Or... Chrono-Synclastic Infundibulum
Off topic, cool term. Looked it up, was in Sirens of Titan. Was also a 'head' shop in the 70s in Charlotte NC.
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post #22 of 55 Old 09-14-2017, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha-Jinn View Post
According to what you said it should work like this:
  • I choose a random stereo amplifier, let's say a McIntosh MA9000 because I have a thing for cyan VU meters;
  • I choose a random AVR, a shiny 7.1 Pyle PT980AUH will do the trick;
  • I connect them both to a switch connected to an easy load like a pair of Apogee Scintilla;
  • I match the volume on both amplifier;
  • I cover the electronics for a blind test;
  • ...
  • profit.
I'm sure I'll hear the same thing on both sides, the sirens of the Fire Department coming to the rescue.

My friend, I'm sure on the high side of the market some AVRs and stereo amplifiers matched to very easy loads don't sound that different at all, but when the load becomes an issue and/or we are talking about low end products the differences are more than noticeable.
Just remember, Watts are NOT related to quality.

Exactly, but my suggestion is not to waste your time getting trolled by a certain individual. We've been over and over and over this in this forum.
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post #23 of 55 Old 09-14-2017, 01:38 PM
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There is one addition amp that has just hit the UK/EU market -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/new...0w-ch.2120953/

Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, DAB/DAB+, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, DAC, Bluetooth, - £700 -

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...03d/index.html

https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/...r-w-musiccast/

https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/...r-w-musiccast/

- 100 W + 100 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.019% THD)
- SABRE 9006AS 192 kHz / 24-bit DAC
- 2xOptical, 2xCoaxial, 1xUSB-Media
- DLNA and Apple Airplay Network Streaming
- Wire and Wireless Networking
- Bluetooth
- Room EQ
- DAB and DAB+ Tuner


In the USA, DAB and DAB+ Tuners are worthless, but very much in demand in the UK where they have switched to Digital Radio Broadcasting.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #24 of 55 Old 09-15-2017, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
There is one addition amp that has just hit the UK/EU market -

https://www.avforums.com/threads/new...0w-ch.2120953/

Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, DAB/DAB+, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, DAC, Bluetooth, - £700 -

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...03d/index.html

https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/...r-w-musiccast/

https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/...r-w-musiccast/

- 100 W + 100 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.019% THD)
- SABRE 9006AS 192 kHz / 24-bit DAC
- 2xOptical, 2xCoaxial, 1xUSB-Media
- DLNA and Apple Airplay Network Streaming
- Wire and Wireless Networking
- Bluetooth
- Room EQ
- DAB and DAB+ Tuner


In the USA, DAB and DAB+ Tuners are worthless, but very much in demand in the UK where they have switched to Digital Radio Broadcasting.

Steve/bluewizard

A very good choice. It also has YPAO room correction, which Yamaha claims is the first 2 channel with room correction. (They are not correct as ARCAM has a stereo AVR with Dirac, Lyngdorf an integrated with Room Perfect, and Anthem has an integrated with ARC). But still it's a good choice. If you have a difficult room or you wife doesn't want things hanging on the wall or bass traps, then go with room correction. If done right, it can be satisfying. I always used audyssey for 2 channel, but recently upgraded to an Anthem MRX-520 with ARC for 2 channel. I'm very happy with the upgrade. Had the yamaha been out and available here, my purchase may have been different.

I also note it is now on the canadian website, still not the us. Also of note it would have been nice for yamaha to include hdmi with the receiver as well, like the Onkyo 8270.
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post #25 of 55 Old 09-15-2017, 09:40 AM
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A very good choice. It also has YPAO room correction, which Yamaha claims is the first 2 channel with room correction. (They are not correct as ARCAM has a stereo AVR with Dirac, ....
I believe the first 2-channel with Room Correction was Harman Kardon HK990. At least that I am aware of.

Quote:
But still it's a good choice. If you have a difficult room or you wife doesn't want things hanging on the wall or bass traps, then go with room correction. If done right, it can be satisfying. ....
Just a reminder that Room Correction can make a good room better, but it can't make a bad room good. There are limits to what it can do, and reasonable efforts should be made to make sure the room has decent acoustics to start with.

Quote:
I also note it is now on the canadian website, still not the us. Also of note it would have been nice for yamaha to include hdmi with the receiver as well, like the Onkyo 8270.
Curious does Canada use DAB/DAB+ Digital Radio Broadcast? The DAB/DAB+ aspect seems to be what is holding it off the USA market. DAB/DAB+ are worthless in the USA, but I'm hoping they will come up with an AM/FM version that would fit the USA market.

Prices, especially on Yamaha, in the UK are very low. Given that the RN602 is roughly $600 in the USA, I would expect the RN803 to run closer to $1000. Still, an amp well worth considering when it does come to the USA. The Yamaha AS801 Integrated Amp (100w/ch, Hi-Res DACs) runs about $900, so again, given all the additional components, I would expect the RN803 to be an easy $1000. Though only time will tell.

If a person in the UK follows the first link I provided previously, I found two placed on a quick search that had the Yamaha RN803 for £699, and a third place that had is listed at the time for £850.

£700 = US$949

£850 = US$1153

Just as a Tangent, Yamaha-Canada also lists a stand alone Network Player - NP-R303 - something not found in the USA or the UK.

https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/au...303/index.html

But in the UK they have the Yamaha CD-NT670D (£399) which is a CD Player that has Network Streaming built in. Also not available in the US or CA.

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...70d/index.html

There is one additional low cost Network Player - CD-N301 (£238) - which is the base CD-S300 with Network Streaming built in -

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...1_g/index.html

Yamaha-Canada -

https://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/au...nts/index.html

Yamaha-UK/IE -


https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/au...nts/index.html

Yamaha-USA -


https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...nts/index.html


Steve/bluewizard

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post #26 of 55 Old 09-15-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha-Jinn View Post
According to what you said it should work like this:
  • I choose a random stereo amplifier, let's say a McIntosh MA9000 because I have a thing for cyan VU meters;
  • I choose a random AVR, a shiny 7.1 Pyle PT980AUH will do the trick;
  • I connect them both to a switch connected to an easy load like a pair of Apogee Scintilla;
  • I match the volume on both amplifier;
  • I cover the electronics for a blind test;
  • ...
  • profit.
I'm sure I'll hear the same thing on both sides, the sirens of the Fire Department coming to the rescue.

My friend, I'm sure on the high side of the market some AVRs and stereo amplifiers matched to very easy loads don't sound that different at all, but when the load becomes an issue and/or we are talking about low end products the differences are more than noticeable.
Just remember, Watts are NOT related to quality.
Instead of retyping what I already posted, I'll just refer you to the following thread. Searching for "All amps sound same" claim
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post #27 of 55 Old 09-15-2017, 08:34 PM
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Instead of retyping what I already posted, I'll just refer you to the following thread. Searching for "All amps sound same" claim
This subject is older than the hills.

Here's a 13 year-old oldie-but-goodie, Do All Amps Sound the Same
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post #28 of 55 Old 09-19-2017, 10:04 AM
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...

Just a reminder that Room Correction can make a good room better, but it can't make a bad room good. There are limits to what it can do, and reasonable efforts should be made to make sure the room has decent acoustics to start with. ... I would expect the RN803 to be an easy $1000. Though only time will tell.


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My room is not too bad. Most all the correction Antherm ARC does is in the very low bass regions centered around 50 hz where I get some bass bloat, and an node centered around 150 hz where some bass is added. Overall everything else if fairly flat. ARC does an excellent job. Audyssey did ok too, but I still felt bass was a tad muddy with it. The Anthem does so much better.

On another note, the Yamaha N-803 is now live on the Yamaha US site. I'll always wonder what that would have sounded like, but I'm too happy to change now, even when still in my return window at crutchfield. Amazing the price is 799.95. Like you I was expecting around or a bit more than the 801 integrated price. The DAC in the 801 is better, but that aside, they appear to be nearly identical with the exception of YPAO in the N803. If you look at the internal pictures, they also appear idential with the exception of the network card in the N803. Aside from the DAC there must be some other cheaper part susbtitutions from the 801 to get at the lower price. All in all this could be a nice reciever to have in a two channel system.

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post #29 of 55 Old 09-19-2017, 11:02 AM
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...

On another note, the Yamaha N-803 is now live on the Yamaha US site. I'll always wonder what that would have sounded like, but I'm too happy to change now, even when still in my return window at crutchfield. Amazing the price is 799.95. Like you I was expecting around or a bit more than the 801 integrated price. .....
Indeed it is listed on the USA Yamaha site with a suggested retail of $799, that seems like very good value to me -

Yamaha/USA - RN803 Network Receiver - $799.99 suggested price -

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...803/index.html

They don't mention much about the Radio aspect. I'm wondering if they didn't just disable the DAB/DAB+ aspect, and leave FM remaining.

Regarding the other Yamaha products -

The Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver (80w/ch) is about $599.

The Yamaha RS500 Receiver (75w/ch, no Streaming, no DAC) is about $349.

The Yamaha RS700 Receiver (100w/ch, no Streaming, no DAC) is about $499.

The Yamaha AS501 Integrated (85w/ch, DAC) is about $550.

The Yamaha AS701 Integrated (100w/ch, DAC) is about $799.

The Yamaha AS801 Integrated (100w/ch, Better DAC) is about $899.

Integrated Amps are always more expensive and I suspect better than Receivers.

Closest in price and Amp Specs are the RN602 Network Receiver (80w/ch, $599) and the AS501 Integrated (85w/ch, $549), but clearly the RN602 has massively more features, but I also suspect that the AS501 is a bit better quality.

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post #30 of 55 Old 09-19-2017, 02:22 PM
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Integrated Amps are always more expensive and I suspect better than Receivers.
It's not always more expensive.
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