Beware of Chinese Ripoffs !! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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While there is plenty of well made audio gear coming in from the Orient, there is still allot of 'phonny' junk being brought in as well.

I'm not sure if this has made the rounds here yet or not, but this is not the kind of "eye candy" we like to see !
LL
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post #2 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 08:13 AM
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While there is plenty of well made audio gear coming in from the Orient

Orient.............ROFLMAO....I don't know about all that. What the heck is "da Orient?" If it's from Japan, I'm down with that. Fine. BUT................a lot of those old school "Made In USA" names ain't no longer made in the USA............see those "AR" cables............well, those babys ain't made in Cambridge. Mass, like my AR2AX were.......it's a sin my man, a disgrace.

Here's my bottom line: If it's Made in China it's not in my system. And hopefully it's not in my house either.
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post #3 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 08:29 AM
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AFAIK Rubycon capacitors are good quality. (Is there another cap inside the Rubycon? )

According the cap housings, their values are completely different. Somewhat confusing...

Where did you get this picture - and what product was this cap found in?

Maybe putting a Rubycon inside a Black Gate cap would make more sense, scam-wise, especially for after-market mods.

- Steve O.
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post #4 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoney99 View Post

see those "AR" cables............well, those babys ain't made in Cambridge. Mass, like my AR2AX were.......it's a sin my man, a disgrace.

Was any AR cables ever made in MA?

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post #5 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoney99 View Post

Here's my bottom line: If it's Made in China it's not in my system. And hopefully it's not in my house either.

What is your system?

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #6 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 02:13 PM
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I wonder what happens when you open the Rubycons up?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #7 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorch123 View Post

AFAIK Rubycon capacitors are good quality. (Is there another cap inside the Rubycon? )

Where did you get this picture - and what product was this cap found in?


It came from here http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=14949
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post #8 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 04:49 PM
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Looks like urban legend to me.

I suspect it would cost more to manufacture the "cap within a cap" than it would cost to manufacture the real thing.
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post #9 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zoney99 View Post

[b]Here's my bottom line: If it's Made in China it's not in my system. And hopefully it's not in my house either.

What kind of old tube gear are you running?

If it's solid state and built in the last 25 years, I can pretty much guarantee that some of it came from China.
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post #10 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 04:55 PM
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Soon you'll be dancing to the chinese tunes my man...it ain't pretty but it just like the 33% failure of m$ box2 and their rrds...
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post #11 of 65 Old 12-14-2007, 09:27 PM
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If it's solid state and built in the last 25 years, I can pretty much guarantee that some of it came from China.

No to that...........

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post #12 of 65 Old 12-15-2007, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoney99 View Post

If it's solid state and built in the last 25 years, I can pretty much guarantee that some of it came from China.

No to that...........

MMF-5


Ahhhhh....yes to that !!! Your mmf-5 has Chinese made parts within, so I am told motor and hardware !

And while you knock Chinese, as do I to a certain extent, remember the early mmf TT's were poorly made and packaged. FACT of the matter is, China is what it is because of Western Ideology, and while I love to wave the Red, White and Blue, Big business is just that...Big Business !!
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post #13 of 65 Old 12-15-2007, 09:31 AM
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Was any AR cables ever made in MA?

No, and that was the AR I knew and loved: AR2ax, AR3a, LSTs, ARxA/B 'tables.

Motor made in China, Twitch...no doubt. Is it inescapable, maybe. Maybe I'll go back to one of those AR tables in the near future.

I think I've made my point...as pointless as it may seem.

BTW my speakers are Totems. I forgot to put that in.

Well, enjoy the music and have fun. No more ranting from me!
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post #14 of 65 Old 12-15-2007, 06:54 PM
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I have seen research that claims %60 percent of the worlds counterfeit goods come out of china..........its really pathetic............golf clubs to gucci bags........and its all over ebay............careful out there.............
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post #15 of 65 Old 12-16-2007, 07:43 AM
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we can all rant and rave in this forum. But the fact is that the big and small audio companies are flocking to China to build their "high end" equipment. They will probably say "Assembled in the USA" to keep us happy, but the fact of the matter is, most of the components are made in China. We don't have a choice here anymore.
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post #16 of 65 Old 12-16-2007, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

And while you knock Chinese, as do I to a certain extent, remember the early mmf TT's were poorly made and packaged. FACT of the matter is, China is what it is because of Western Ideology, and while I love to wave the Red, White and Blue, Big business is just that...Big Business !!

The Chinese have been around for far longer, and are just now catching up both socially and economically. Simply the fact that the West managed to show the people what they've been missing due to internal suppression/oppression is far from something to be embarrassed about.

The Chinese have billions of people to support in a rapidly-expanding economy. Rest assured the Western consumer is not on their list of people to care about.

The First Clarke Law states, 'If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is impossible he is very probably wrong.'
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post #17 of 65 Old 12-16-2007, 09:41 PM
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Most of my system is "Made in USA" or Canada with the exception of my SMS-1 (China) and Sony 9000ES DVD/SACD player (Japan). EVERY component regardless where it is made (assembled) is comprised of global components. It is unavoidable. A 100% made in USA consumer electronic product does not exist. Some American manufacturers are upfront about where they source components, or at least admit that they source globally . I have a McCormack amp and pre-amp both of which state in their literature "handmade in the United States using premium quality parts carefully selected from sources throughout the world". Several decades ago the EPA made it virtually impossible for manufacturers of electronic components to produce anything containing heavy metals. The cost of adhering to their rules regarding emissions and disposal of byproducts forced many companies to build plants in Europe and Asia or simply subcontract their manufacture. The FTC does have guidelines for the use of the "Made In Usa" designation but most companies ignore this and just slap "MADE IN USA" on the product. Here's an interesting FTC article, according to their definition it sounds like any and all consumer electronics should at best be labeled "Assembled In USA with Foreign and Domestic Parts"

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/...s/madeusa.shtm

I interpret this as nothing that uses AC power qualifies for the "MADE IN USA" label.
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post #18 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 04:35 AM
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Steve that was a nice, thoughtful, post. And I don't disagree one bit. I would say this though, with all due respect, having spent my entire 54 years in the USA (except for a 1-year all expense paid vacation to a hot, exotic Southeast Asian land courtesy of my Uncle, Sam) and just about all of that in New York, I appreciate the few things that are still made in good ol' New York state. One of my neighbors is located on 2 Chambers Street, in the city of Binghamton, an old industrial town. The company, McIntosh, has a storied past, along with AR, JBL, Altec-Lansing etc. If you have the opportunity, you can actually visit on certain days, and see the equipment being built. McIntosh, my friend, is Made in USA, I don't care if some aluminum knob, or a resistor, was built in Yunan province or Taipei, Taiwan - that amp, or preamp as the case may be, is made in New York. We can split hairs - or not - but here is my simple plan: I go to 2 Chambers Street and see New Yorkers building "my" amp and I say it's made in America. BTW, my amp is an old school MA-6100 integrated amp in mint condition that I will pass on to my children and hopefully my grandchildren - few people purchasing their "made in China" consumer electronics will have that plan. I respect that - we're all different and as the French would say, "viva la diference!" (They usually apply that saying to females but I stole it for this AVS forums LOL)
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post #19 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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zoney, Good story, but....... the State of NY has driven more business out of its state and out of our country then I / we care to admit !!!

FWIW, were the same age, I was born and raised in Bflo, where do you think the majority of Western NY (Bflo, Roch) business has gone the last twenty years ? It not just cheap labor, NY State, the land of taxation, ahhhhh...... I remember when Kodak was the largest employer in Monroe County and Xerox was Hdq in Rochester.

Oh well, Global economy, compete or fall by the wayside.
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post #20 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 05:51 AM
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Chinese quality control has not been especially inspiring in a variety of areas, audio related matters included.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #21 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 07:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Chinese quality control has not been especially inspiring in a variety of areas, audio related matters included.

You know, that's true, but it seems to me that we make a little too much out of it. Who cooked those hamburgers that killed quite a few people a few years back? Oh yeah, that was Jack in the Box. And how about the home delivery company Schwans that forgot to clean out one of their tanker trucks (oops) that had milk in it before filling it full of ice cream that killed dozens. Both American companies. There are thousands of examples of recalls from everything from toys to consumer goods, to cars, to medications, to, well you get the picture. I mean medicines approved by the FDA have killed tens of thousands over just the last few years. Look at the law suits. Remember that great weight loss product that ate HOLES in peoples hearts? But is anyone crying about the horrible quality control of Americal made goods and foods? Not that I hear. Who makes that new operating system Vista? Yeah that would be MS an American company. Point is that it happens everywhere. Always has always will. Its not country related. Its business related. Follow the money and it doesn't always lead to China. Hey, but this is just my opinion. An educated consumer is the best consumer regardless of where the stuff is made.
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post #22 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Chinese quality control has not been especially inspiring in a variety of areas, audio related matters included.

So when a US company outsources to China, all of the sudden QA is now only Chinese companies problem? Way to exploit bad PR images on the Chinese, instead of coming out and apologize about bad US QA.
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post #23 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
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Rubycon produce great caps...

As far as 60% of counterfeits come from China. That sounds pretty good actually. Considering the fact that EVERYTHING come from China. Exaggerated of course, but you get the picture.
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post #24 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 11:40 AM
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Rubycon produces great caps...

As far as 60% of counterfeits come from China. That sounds pretty good actually. Considering the fact that EVERYTHING come from China. Exaggerated of course, but you get the picture.
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post #25 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

You know, that's true, but it seems to me that we make a little too much out of it. Who cooked those hamburgers that killed quite a few people a few years back? Oh yeah, that was Jack in the Box. And how about the home delivery company Schwans that forgot to clean out one of their tanker trucks (oops) that had milk in it before filling it full of ice cream that killed dozens. Both American companies. There are thousands of examples of recalls from everything from toys to consumer goods, to cars, to medications, to, well you get the picture. I mean medicines approved by the FDA have killed tens of thousands over just the last few years. Look at the law suits. Remember that great weight loss product that ate HOLES in peoples hearts? But is anyone crying about the horrible quality control of Americal made goods and foods? Not that I hear. Who makes that new operating system Vista? Yeah that would be MS an American company. Point is that it happens everywhere. Always has always will. Its not country related. Its business related. Follow the money and it doesn't always lead to China. Hey, but this is just my opinion. An educated consumer is the best consumer regardless of where the stuff is made.

Some of those issues that you raise Tom aren't specifically matters of QC. Some are. However, pointing to domestic examples of bad behavior in order to justify and stymie comment on other bad behavior doesn't wash with me.
For a time, my daughter-in-law worked in the Chicago area for the FDA doing among other things, food inspections on imported goods. It was a toss up between China & India as to which goods didn't make their way into this country. Not only food, but medical goods that are implanted found their way into the reject, return to sender, dispose of it bin.

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So when a US company outsources to China, all of the sudden QA is now only Chinese companies problem? Way to exploit bad PR images on the Chinese, instead of coming out and apologize about bad US QA.

Neither you, vitaminC, nor I are privy to the contracts that hammer out the responsibilities for QA & QC. I see no reason to exonerate them and being that we do an enormous trade with them, there's all the reason in the world to direct attention their way as well as the companies that source from them. The counterfeiting, violation of Trademark & Copyrights, outright adulteration of food and medicinal products is well known.

With respect to audio, it does seem to me that either the Chinese have gotten very good at Statistical Quality Control and are making audio products that manage to develop problems right around the time warranties expire or something else is going on vis a vis the various Denon & H/K posts I've been reading here and elsewhere. Further, consider the QC issues that AV123 has had and may continue to still have regarding substitution of capacitors for the ones called for in their products that were sourced from China. There's no ready way the consumer can tell.

I am not saying don't buy products made in China. I'm simply saying that given the capacitor picture, I'm not surprised where it came from just as if I come upon a phony $20 bill it wouldn't surprise me if it came from North Korea. I still think the Chinese have a ways to go with respect to quality. Now you'll all excuse me if I feed my dog some melamine laced food, brush my teeth with ethylene glycol based Colgate, watch as my granddaughter goes into a tizzy as she pops the AquaDots into her mouth as she chews on her favorite yellow toy. All as I field a sales call from a Sean O'Brien who strangely, has an Indian accent.

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post #26 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 12:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Some of those issues that you raise Tom aren't specifically matters of QC. Some are. However, pointing to domestic examples of bad behavior in order to justify and stymie comment on other bad behavior doesn't wash with me....

On the QC issue, don't know that I agree that all the issues I raised weren't examples. But I wasn't pointing to examples of domestic bad behavior as a way of justifying issues in other countries. My point was that it seems to me unbalanced to cite an example, or examples of poor QC in China and then state that everthing from the entire country was suspect due to the example. It isn't China that is the issue, its the business practices of the specific companies involved. All the way from the origination to the end user source that also has a responsibility to inspect the goods it gets via contract before it uses and distributes. I (but that's just me) wouldn't post a thread about how horrible China is anymore than I would condem any country based on QC issues around a product. To me that seems nationalistic. And history only illustrates that bad things happen when anyone goes down that path. Hell, look at our own QC issue around Gerorge Bush We hate it that countries look with disdain at our entire country based on the actions of one flawed product, our current president.
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post #27 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminc View Post

So when a US company outsources to China, all of the sudden QA is now only Chinese companies problem? Way to exploit bad PR images on the Chinese, instead of coming out and apologize about bad US QA.

Coincidence then that QC falloff seems to occur AFTER it goes to China? Ah, who knows.

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Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Hell, look at our own QC issue around Gerorge Bush We hate it that countries look with disdain at our entire country based on the actions of one flawed product, our current president.

Code Pink co-opting public opinion aside, one should realize that companies don't make stupid decisions, people do. Likewise, an Administration is a number of people, not one.

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I am not saying don't buy products made in China. I'm simply saying that given the capacitor picture, I'm not surprised where it came from just as if I come upon a phony $20 bill it wouldn't surprise me if it came from North Korea. I still think the Chinese have a ways to go with respect to quality. Now you'll all excuse me if I feed my dog some melamine laced food, brush my teeth with ethylene glycol based Colgate, watch as my granddaughter goes into a tizzy as she pops the AquaDots into her mouth as she chews on her favorite yellow toy. All as I field a sales call from a Sean O'Brien who strangely, has an Indian accent.

Awesome.

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post #28 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 01:36 PM
 
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...Code Pink co-opting public opinion aside, one should realize that companies don't make stupid decisions, people do. Likewise, an Administration is a number of people, not one.

It was a joke, tongue in cheek, sarcasm, perhaps you should get a sense of humor. But then that would mean you getting your head out of Chu's backside first so you could look around to find one. But your on to something with your people vs business idea. If you are suggesting that we don't hold the businesses culpable but the people who work there, then why wouldn't we apply the same logic to countries and not condem them outright simply because some product might lack sufficient QC.
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post #29 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 02:03 PM
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I rather like the public exposure that China's gotten for their various transgressions. I don't like that many companies have chosen a business model that's beholding to China for their very existence. Sure it's unbalanced to a greater or lesser extent Tom. It's not meant to be an overview of QC in the world. In this particular post, the country at hand is China and they're a mighty big player on the world stage.

I didn't know someone was up my backside. Might've had something to do when I was asked, "Chu, you think your shite don't stink?"

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post #30 of 65 Old 12-17-2007, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twitch54 View Post

While there is plenty of well made audio gear coming in from the Orient, there is still allot of 'phonny' junk being brought in as well.

I'm not sure if this has made the rounds here yet or not, but this is not the kind of "eye candy" we like to see !


I was expecting to find a squirrel cage inside with animal.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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