My Vertical Masking Master Plan - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 46 Old 02-23-2010, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Ok WARNING, this is totally over engineered, over designed and over thought!!! But it was kinda fun figuring it all out.

Any way this is my idea for vertical masking that will also close completely to cover the screen when not in use. Once set it should be 100% accurate all the time and never need any adjusting or maintenance which were top priorities when I was doing it. No springs to wear or break, no cables that can stretch causing alignment problems. It should be rock solid. I haven't worked on anything as far as automation yet, but it will all be driven by one 12 volt motor, probably just an open/close switch to start with.

So any way let me know your thoughts on this.

DOWN LOAD THIS FILE

It is a SketchUp file so you will need Google ScetchUp to read it (free program)
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 46 Old 02-23-2010, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Here are some 2D images, much easier to look at in SketchUp though.







Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #3 of 46 Old 02-23-2010, 02:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
HDGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SE TN
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wow, great looking design & drawings!
I look forward to following along with your build out.

May I offer a thought ? Wonder if timing belts & gears might be quieter than using chains & sprockets ?

Way to go Mopar man !


John
HDGTX is offline  
post #4 of 46 Old 02-23-2010, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I would prefer a coged belt to the chain also because of the noise. But so far I haven't found a source for a belt that is that long. But I am still searching.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #5 of 46 Old 02-23-2010, 09:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
HDGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SE TN
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
How long a timing belt are you needin? I have done a lot of searching for stuff like that for my own future build. There are a coupld of places that sell open ended belts

John
HDGTX is offline  
post #6 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 05:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
ilsiu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 867
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Very impressive design.

It looks like the masking moves via nuts on the threaded rods. But won't that make both sides move in unison, i.e. both move left or right when the rod is rotated, instead of one moves left and the other moves right?
ilsiu is offline  
post #7 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGTX View Post

How long a timing belt are you needin? I have done a lot of searching for stuff like that for my own future build. There are a coupld of places that sell open ended belts

John

It is 60-1/2" center of shaft to center of shaft. Any info you have would be great. I am starting to put together a parts list to order
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #8 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilsiu View Post

Very impressive design.

It looks like the masking moves via nuts on the threaded rods. But won't that make both sides move in unison, i.e. both move left or right when the rod is rotated, instead of one moves left and the other moves right?

One side is right hand thread and the other is a left hand thread. So even though it is all turning the same direction they will move in opposite directions.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #9 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 09:26 AM
Advanced Member
 
HDGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SE TN
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

It is 60-1/2" center of shaft to center of shaft. Any info you have would be great. I am starting to put together a parts list to order

Will dig out my file folder & get back to you... Glad to help.
HDGTX is offline  
post #10 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I just one place that I think will have what I need, they are called SDP/SI, looks like I should be able to get what I need.

I have to figure out the RPM's on my motor first though so I can figure pulley size.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #11 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 10:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
petew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Albuquerque, NM USA
Posts: 2,051
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 41
I'll donate a high torque DC motor with integral gear reduction unit. It's made for operating windows. It runs on 24v nominal.

Here is a link showing my automated blinds using this type motor.

PM me if interested.

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs

Surrounds - Easy as Pi

Storage - unRAID unDELL

petew is offline  
post #12 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

I'll donate a high torque DC motor with integral gear reduction unit. It's made for operating windows. It runs on 24v nominal.

PM me if interested.

Thanks for the offer. I do have laying around a 12v motor that is made for operating the landing gear on an equipment trailer. I have to test it out some more because I don't know if it is a 1600 or 2200 rpm model and it also has a 59:1 gear box on it. I think I can eliminate the gear box and use just the straight motor. I want about 1700-1800 rpms to the screws when done.

I also don't want to drive the threaded shaft directly, I want to drive the belt/chain. Reason is: if I ran just a belt from top shaft to bottom shaft and they drove the bottom shaft with the motor directly (would be easiest), then what happens if the belt/chain happens to break or jump off... You could get a big mangled mess as the motor would still drive the bottom shaft but not the top. Guess that would be a way to correct keystone though!!!
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #13 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Advanced Member
 
HDGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SE TN
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

I just one place that I think will have what I need, they are called SDP/SI, looks like I should be able to get what I need.

I have to figure out the RPM's on my motor first though so I can figure pulley size.

SDPSI was one of the places I was going to recommend, they have a huge amount of cool stuff. The "Coni-drive"
is neat.

Here is a link to McMasters-Carr;
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/116/1044/=5ykwzs

Here is another, PolyTech Design Inc; www.polybelt.com

Another: Quality Transmission Comp (AKA: Econobelt)
www.econobelt.com

Lots of choices; Inch or metric, belt composition, belt pitch (MXL, XL ect), belt width.

I've been looking, but unable to find how much of a pulley's circumfrence (sp?) adds to the belt's length requirement; 2 x your 60.5" + that length.....

Will be interesting to see how much torque you'll need to drive those two threaded rods & masks.

John P
HDGTX is offline  
post #14 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
If you have the picth and number of grooves in the pulley you can figure the length. I am going to get my motor figured out this weekend before I put to much effort into finding correct pulley and belt. But I am going to do the belt since I have some good souces, thanks much.

Wonder if I will need to do an idle pulley to keep the belt from slaping with that long length....
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #15 of 46 Old 02-24-2010, 05:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
HDGTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SE TN
Posts: 681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here is a link to a calculator from Econobelt's web site, Brian sent this link after I asked him about the pulley factor.

http://sdp-si.com/Cd/CenterDistance.asp
HDGTX is offline  
post #16 of 46 Old 03-11-2010, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Just an update that I have the main frame all built and am working on the treaded shafts now, been too lazy to take pictures yet. After this week end I should have it all done except for the belt and gears, need to get the motor mounted first so I can figure out belt length. So far looks like everything is working as planned.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #17 of 46 Old 03-11-2010, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
OK I ran into a small snag. The DC motor that I had intended to use doesn't look like it is going to work out. It has a 59:1 gear box on it that I thought I could just pull off and use the motor itself. Which I can but the actuall motor has just a tiny, maybe 1/8", shaft on it. Shaft coming out of the gear box is 1/2" so I thought the motor shaft would be close to size. Well this is way to small of shaft to put the gear on to run the belt, and I can't leave the gear box on or it will be way to slow....

So any good sources out their for a 12V DC motor that turns around 1800 rpm and has a 1/2" shaft on it? As long as I have to get a different motor how about something with a built in control for stop points?

I am guessing somewhere around 300-400 inch pounds of torque is needed.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #18 of 46 Old 03-15-2010, 04:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
Gunnar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lillehammer, Norway
Posts: 933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nice plan and drawings! What is the purpose of the "extra" sprocket on the lower threaded rod?
Do you really need a lot of torque to turn the threaded rods? I have a motor from a HP-plotter that is probably turning at about 1200 o/min. I connected it to a threaded rod with a nut on it, and it seems that it takes a lot of force to stop the nut from moving up/down the threaded rod. Motor current drain is less than 1A at 12V with some load.

Gunnar
Gunnar is offline  
post #19 of 46 Old 03-15-2010, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
The extra sprocket is where the motor will be mounted. Don't have a motor yet so I didn't draw it or the mount in. Also I will do a belt instead of chain.

I really don't know how much power I need. A cordless drill will turn the shaft with every thing together. But I don't have the masking material on yet which will add some resistance also, how much depends on how much tenstion is needed to keep 6' of material from sagging.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #20 of 46 Old 03-20-2010, 12:10 PM
Member
 
TeeCue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Great plan, beautiful drawing!

I have been looking at a similar option that goes something like this:

1) Use a SCREW DRIVE garage opener as the main motor. You only want to use a unit with a DC motor in it.http://www.geniecompany.com/GenieCompany.aspx?cid=560 These are very quite specially when there is not a lot of load on them. The power supply can be modified to be used with outboard reversing and limit switches. You dont need the internal control board and receiver board (?sell them on ebay)

2) The aluminum track will be used along with the carriage.
3) The track comes in short lengths and extensions are available to get the desired length.
4) Get an extra carriage (or make your own) and screw it from the opposite end so that when the screw rotates both the carriages meet in the middle.

The front ends of the maskings can be connected to the carriages in such a way that the front ends remain perfectly straight and vertical so that there is no need for a bottom screw drive!

I have always been a proponent of using weights to maintain tension on the masking. This will work great.

A BELT DRIVE unit can also work, but I like the Screw drive better.

I am a little busy these days but will try to make a diagram of the masking to carriage connection.

Teecue
TeeCue is offline  
post #21 of 46 Old 03-20-2010, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeCue View Post

Great plan, beautiful drawing!

I have been looking at a similar option that goes something like this:

1) Use a SCREW DRIVE garage opener as the main motor. You only want to use a unit with a DC motor in it.http://www.geniecompany.com/GenieCompany.aspx?cid=560 These are very quite specially when there is not a lot of load on them. The power supply can be modified to be used with outboard reversing and limit switches. You dont need the internal control board and receiver board (?sell them on ebay)

2) The aluminum track will be used along with the carriage.
3) The track comes in short lengths and extensions are available to get the desired length.
4) Get an extra carriage (or make your own) and screw it from the opposite end so that when the screw rotates both the carriages meet in the middle.

The front ends of the maskings can be connected to the carriages in such a way that the front ends remain perfectly straight and vertical so that there is no need for a bottom screw drive!

I have always been a proponent of using weights to maintain tension on the masking. This will work great.

A BELT DRIVE unit can also work, but I like the Screw drive better.

I am a little busy these days but will try to make a diagram of the masking to carriage connection.

Teecue


I see a couple of possible problems.

1) screw drive openers only come in one thread direction. This means that to work you would have to use a motor on each end. One turning forward and one turning backwards, the screws can't be connected beacause they have to turn opposite directions. So some how you would have to get each motor to start and stop at exacty the same time and run exactly the same speed to stay in sync with each other. Or you would have to use seperate position sensors and controls on each one.

2) you are going to need screws top and bottom I think to keep the masking edge square to the top and bottom of the screen. You have to remember that you are going to have the tension of the masking pulling on that leading edge trying to bend it to the outside edge of the screen. I don't think you could ever brace it enough using only a top or bottom screw to keep it square.

3) shortest door opener is 7' so you are going to have to cut it of, unless you have a 14' wide screen. And like I said earlier you would need to buy 2 of them atleast.

I look at this option also and just came up with too many problems or possible problems down the road. Plus it is no cheaper when you really start figuring it out.

As far as motors go you can use 120v, I am going to use a 1/3hp 120v motor that I had laying around out of a furnace that is reversable and very quiet. I will be using a rotor control that will alow you to program in 99 memory positions for different screen sizes. The rotor out put 19volts which is will use to trigger a relay that is triggered by DC and switches AC to the motor. A timing belt will transfer power to the upper screw, so the entire thiing is controlled by one motor. The ony way it can possible get out of sync is if one of the dowel pins that I have connecting the screw shafts was to shear off, and I don't see that happening.

ScottJ0007 has a very good thread that explains how to use the rotor: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941076

Never mind I should have looked at the name first, you know all about the other thread......good work
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #22 of 46 Old 03-30-2010, 08:29 PM
Member
 
TeeCue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You have some valid points but there are ways of getting over the hurdles, I am looking at using the belt drive system also, the advantage being that one can use both travel directions at the same time. More on this later.
TeeCue is offline  
post #23 of 46 Old 03-31-2010, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeCue View Post

You have some valid points but there are ways of getting over the hurdles, I am looking at using the belt drive system also, the advantage being that one can use both travel directions at the same time. More on this later.

Good idea.

I am working on hurdles right now. Running into far to much vibration in the treaded shaft that are spanning 6' with now support. I had thought that the 3/4" shaft would have been a little stiffer then that. I have some new pulleys on the way to slow down the RPM's and I am also going to add a rail system that they moving part of the mask rides in so it can't move up-down or front-back as the shaft is trying to vibrate, should take care of alot of it.

Oh and a furnace blower motor has no starting power at all so I am up to a regular duty 3/4 HP motor. Its a little over kill but it works.

I like the belt idea: Queit, doesn't need a fast RPM speed, that could be made to work. If I wasn't so far into this now I would do a design around that. But now it is just a personal mission to get this thing to work. I can make it work, bigges draw back when all is done could be that it is not a silent system at all.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #24 of 46 Old 03-31-2010, 12:37 PM
Member
 
TeeCue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post


Oh and a furnace blower motor has no starting power at all

And I don't believe its reversible.
TeeCue is offline  
post #25 of 46 Old 03-31-2010, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeCue View Post

And I don't believe its reversible.

Yea they are reversible that is no problem. I tried both a 1/4 and 1/3hp version and they just don't have the power, you can hold them with your hand, no starting capasitor on them. Luckily I oversized my relays so I could step up to a 3/4 10amp motor no problem.
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #26 of 46 Old 04-29-2010, 06:51 AM
Member
 
FuzzyZipperbaum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 103
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Unless I missed it, any thoughts to the screen material yet?
FuzzyZipperbaum is offline  
post #27 of 46 Old 04-29-2010, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Screen is going to be Seymor Center Stage XD. Masking will be black 701 GOM

I have the system all built now but am having some problems with the control system that I can't figure out. That is being discussed in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...941076&page=25 starting at post #722
Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #28 of 46 Old 07-26-2010, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Mopar_Mudder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Rice Lake, WI
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
UPDATE:

I have a 99% complete theater now with a working masking system based on the rotor control that was figured out in this thread. For some reason I do have to do a little voodoo magic to get it to reset correctly but it does work. My masking is only 2 way but it goes from completely closed to open on a 142" wide screen.

Here are pictures at closed, 4:3, 16:9, 2.35. It will go open about another 3" from the 2.35 position.

More pictures can be seen at the link in my signature.




Mopar_Mudder is offline  
post #29 of 46 Old 07-27-2010, 11:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zamboniman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chicago, IL - Far NW Burbs
Posts: 1,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Awesome! Insert evil laugh here....

Great work
zamboniman is offline  
post #30 of 46 Old 07-29-2010, 07:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
oman321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: MASS
Posts: 4,699
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 36
That masking must look awesome as it is opening up!! Can you do a little video for us?
oman321 is offline  
Reply DIY Constant Height

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off