Rich H's Variable Image Size System - Pictures - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Sorry, I wasn't ignoring this, I'm just back from vacation.

It does seem like the idea of 4 way masking and CIA (and similar options) is gaining some more interest than it has in the past. This seems to be due to the fact higher resolution sources have become the norm in home theater which seems to give more leeway in offering great images at a wider range of image sizes. Plus you have the IMAX effect of some titles (Dark Knight, Avatar etc).

That said I still don't get the sense it's reached a critical mass necessary for a new forum. At the same time it's too bad that the interest that is there tends to be discussed in forums like this (I don't like to feel I'm "polluting" a forum with off-topic stuff, but at the moment this seems the most applicable forum for discussing some of these issues).

Up to AVS as always....

Thanks for the props!

Hi, Rich: Defintely agree and understand, which is why I respect your experiments to go beyond CIW/CIH and hope there is a better way for more people to be exposed to such ideas, just in case they fit their priorities. When researching for my budget setup, I was excited to learn about CIH, but was even happier to find out about balancing AR's.

I think you've built the ultimate system, as it incorporates every camp's idea of a perfect setup. I can only imagine the great feeling when can wow you guests any way you want.

Again, that's just a stunning home theater, and a beautiful house.


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post #32 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I think the biggest roadblock is price/complexity, specifically of the masking. While there are numerous options for CIH/CIW setups, from free (no masking), to cheap (fixed panels), and even a range of motorized options that aren't too expensive, for a VIA/CIA system it's much harder. Firstly I think you really just can't skip masking, with CIW/CIH you get at least two sides masked regardless, with VIA/CIA you have nothing. But beyond that you can't really just use panels, you just about need motorized, 4-way masking and that tends to be either very expensive (commercial solutions) or very complex (DIY).

Definitely true. I think I've seen only one gallery with a commercial 4 way masking system. It was a stunning high end setup to begin with, and way too rich for most of us.

Rich's project is the only one I've seen on the DIY side. However, this one may not be too "Rich" for those hardcore DIYer's, who always welcome more complexity and are looking for challenging projects to tackle. After all, the home theater builds have become progressively more impressive. Rich's experiment may point to the next impetus to cover even higher grounds.

BTW, for the majority with casual setups, there are still cheaper and easier alternatives to go beyond CIW, such as using two screens to get CIH or CIA with almost full masking. But of course, this doesn't work for the true variable sized movie like Dark Knight. Having to watch it either on 16:9 or 2.35:1 makes me feel that I'm missing out.

Thanks.


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post #33 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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My responses to all:

BladeRnR,

Glad you like it. And it's very nice to hear that someone might find any inspiration from my project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Firstly I think you really just can't skip masking, with CIW/CIH you get at least two sides masked regardless, with VIA/CIA you have nothing.

We are of the same mind on that: for me masking is mandatory. But what I find intriguing is that it doesn't seem so for many other folks - none of my friends with projection set ups have even heard of masking let alone use it. And lots of people on AVS seem happy without masking. That includes some CIH owners as well who say they aren't bothered by not having masking.

If, like so many people, I wasn't bothered by the unmasked portions of the image my life would have been made vastly simpler. I could simply have chosen a really big screen and zoomed to my hearts content, never having to bother with masking. In some regards I'm puzzled why more people - the ones who feel no need for masking - don't consider doing this. Many projectors are extremely easy to zoom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

when using the pj zoom as you mention, do you find you need to adjust the sharpness setting again?

Surprisingly: No. Going into this project I presumed I would have to re-do sharpness settings whenever I zoomed to a new image size. However, when standing next to the screen looking at the pixels, I can't really perceive any changes in sharpness whatever size I choose, so it became a non-issue long ago. Perhaps this varies with projector: I use the JVC RS20. Some have reported they have to re-do their sharpness settings when changing aperture settings on the JVC, but I haven't noticed it and don't bother at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

Hi Rich-
Nice job, I must say. I too liked the PJ lift, and was wondering if it was a scissor jack design?

Hi Don.

No, it's a telescoping design, which I find to be the most elegant solution.
The company, Flatlift, offers various solutions and in this case it was custom designed for me. I was just amazed by this product: the fact my projector can sit about 23" from the floor, completely out of view behind the sofa, and then rise up to over 6 feet still blows me away when I use it. In fact, while you'd think the masking may impress guests most it's probably the projector
silently and smoothly rising out of "nowhere" up to it's full height that gets the "Oh My God" and "It's like a James Bond hang out" comments.

You can see the details of the lift in this post from my build thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...5&postcount=11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

I had ideas about building a similar lift, one that would sit close to the wall but not be hanging from the ceiling. This seems like it would solve lots of difficult installations.

Don

Indeed. That's why I was taken aback at how rarely it had been done. When I first thought of using the sofa to hide the projector and have it rise up rather than lower down from the ceiling, I figured plenty of folks would have done it before. But few if any of the AV installers, or even the projector lift companies who I contacted, had done it. The projector lift offerings were always dropping down from the ceiling. I couldn't find ANYONE to help me. That's why I had to end up ordering this thing from Germany. I'm still amazed it's not used more often especially as it can make the video cabling for the projector much easier to hide than having to run it through ceilings and walls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjmbxkb View Post

Hi, Rich: Defintely agree and understand, which is why I respect your experiments to go beyond CIW/CIH and hope there is a better way for more people to be exposed to such ideas, just in case they fit their priorities. When researching for my budget setup, I was excited to learn about CIH, but was even happier to find out about balancing AR's.

I think you've built the ultimate system, as it incorporates every camp's idea of a perfect setup. I can only imagine the great feeling when can wow you guests any way you want.

Again, that's just a stunning home theater, and a beautiful house.

Thanks.

My architect actually is so enthusiastic about the results that he thinks we should develop a sort of home theater "package" idea, as it were, to sell to people interested in such set ups. Personally I don't see the market for it that he does. At one point during some down time in my industry (I do sound effects design for film/tv) I moonlighted as a sort of advisor, helping people put together home theater/entertainment systems.

But you really have to be up on all the latest gear to make that a valuable service and frankly, after years of concentration on the equipment side of things I feel my interest is burned out. It was a struggle to even focus on all the details necessary to get this project done...like I barely just crossed the finish line. For me at this point it's just about turning the system on, kicking back and listening to music or watching a flick...much more about what's happening up on screen than the technical details of the project.

Thanks everyone.

Rich H


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post #34 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 01:18 PM
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Rich-
I won't ask you what you paid for your lift, but I would imagine it is equivelent to 10 Yugo's.

That really IS the wow factor.

One other idea I had for apartment dwellers, etc. is to mount the PJ under the couch (slightly elevated) and point it away from the screen.

A first surface mirror at a 45 degree angle at the baseboard will shine the image up to another first surface mirror (larger) also at a 45 degree angle. The reflected image then gets projected onto the screen.

The first throw would be 2 feet, second throw would be about five feet, then final throw would be 8+ feet.

Keep in mind that you will lose about 10% of the PJ's brightness, or about 5% per mirror.

Don
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post #35 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

We are of the same mind on that: for me masking is mandatory. But what I find intriguing is that it doesn't seem so for many other folks - none of my friends with projection set ups have even heard of masking let alone use it. And lots of people on AVS seem happy without masking. That includes some CIH owners as well who say they aren't bothered by not having masking.

Not quite of the same mind I'm one of those "other folks" you mention. I don't have any side masking on my CIH screen and it doesn't bother me a bit. With 16:9 or 4:3 content I'm so focused on the active image area that I can't even see the "white" to the sides of the screen (it's just as black as the velvet screen border). In CIH, the unmasked edges account for only a relatively small fraction of the entire border, only about 1/3 of the border of a 1.78:1 image.

I suspect I would be more bothered in a CIW setup because the unmasked border would be so much more prominent, accounting for a full 70% of the image border.

And I think it would be an entirely different thing for me with a VIA/CIA setup. If you don't have masking in that setup, then I'd think something would just be wrong because nothing would "fill the screen" there'd be empty space on all sides, 100% of the border, and you'd need something (masking) to define where the screen is.

Quote:


If, like so many people, I wasn't bothered by the unmasked portions of the image my life would have been made vastly simpler. I could simply have chosen a really big screen and zoomed to my hearts content, never having to bother with masking. In some regards I'm puzzled why more people - the ones who feel no need for masking - don't consider doing this. Many projectors are extremely easy to zoom.

I don't remember your journey to VIA, but I'd imagine the VIA destination plays a large role in your opinion of masking.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And I think it would be an entirely different thing for me with a VIA/CIA setup. If you don't have masking in that setup, then I'd think something would just be wrong because nothing would "fill the screen" there'd be empty space on all sides, 100% of the border, and you'd need something (masking) to define where the screen is.

Actually, I tend to agree that black bars aren't as noticeable left and right in the same way you do- but it really isn't any different with a CIA setup.

CIA doesn't have to be done on a 1.78 fixed screen (in which case you would be right). For example, I use a Da-Lite manual screen, so 1.78 "large/IMAX" films naturally fill the full size. Adjusting height of the screen to a ~2.05 ratio, I'm either filling full width (2.40 films) or full height (1.85 films/1.78 HDTV). Full height leaves very small slivers on either side of the image, which aren't very noticeable- and full width leaves very small slivers above and below. I actually image shift down to the bottom of the screen so that I have borders on left/bottom/right and only unmasked area above. Either way, the screen and image area are well defined. This can also be done with a 2.05 fixed screen of course, minus the IMAX enlargement.

For a true variable size image, masking is pretty key like you say- you have a screen larger than most (or all) of your desired image AR/sizes.

That said, a full variable masking system as elegant as Rich's would be an amazing experience- he's really pulled off an amazing feat.
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post #37 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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stanger89,

Something I'm not quite following here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Not quite of the same mind I'm one of those "other folks" you mention. I don't have any side masking on my CIH screen and it doesn't bother me a bit. With 16:9 or 4:3 content I'm so focused on the active image area that I can't even see the "white" to the sides of the screen (it's just as black as the velvet screen border).

With:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

And I think it would be an entirely different thing for me with a VIA/CIA setup. If you don't have masking in that setup, then I'd think something would just be wrong because nothing would "fill the screen" there'd be empty space on all sides, 100% of the border, and you'd need something (masking) to define where the screen is.

But if you don't find you need to "define" the side border of the screen via masking in your CIH (for non scope material) why would you suddenly need to do so in a VIA/CIA set up? Especially if, as you say, the image area beyond the image is so black? I guess it would be the new presence of the not perfectly black bars for scope content that would bug you?

BTW, does your use of a lens mean your projector is never projecting "black bars" for any AR? Or is your projector doing black bars for the sides of non-scope content?


Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I don't remember your journey to VIA, but I'd imagine the VIA destination plays a large role in your opinion of masking.

VIA had no role in my opinion of masking; it only proved a pain in the ass because of the opinion I already held about masking.

I bought my plasma when Panasonic had just moved to it's 4th generation (in 2001 or 2002...can't remember). I experimented like a madman trying to get the most impressive image I could. Early on I made masks for my plasma for scope content and was hooked. It amazed me that covering "black bars" that were already pretty black had as profound an effect as it did. So I bought big bands of black material, cut them to size, put velcro on the ends (and on the back of my plasma) so the masks could be put on and off easily for watching scope films. (I have always watched movies in the dark, btw, even back in the VCR days, so the move to projection based system was natural). I hadn't heard of anyone else masking their plasma, then or now, but I was a nut about this stuff.

Next I started experimenting with adding more black to the viewing experience. My plasma was held, by an articulating arm, aloft from a large, ochre-colored entertainment center/bookcase. I bought some black material and hung it behind the plasma. With the lights off I experienced another WOW moment: just seeing that vivid scope image (masked) floating against a black background made so much difference in terms of apparent image vividness, dimensionality and realism! I learned again that those things you don't think you notice really do play a role in how you are perceiving the image. I always figured I was concentrating on the plasma image and not the surrounding - and the surrounding was pretty dark anyway since I would watch with lights off - so why would changing the surrounding make much difference? But, it really did and it really does.

I gradually added more and more black material behind my plasma for watching movies. Keep in mind this is a meagre 4th gen "ED" resolution plasma, not even hi-def. Yet even as years went on friends and guests who saw images on the set up, including people who owned much "better" HD flat panels, would all be amazed at the image and virtually everyone thought I had some sort of extra expensive "special" plasma to get the picture they were experiencing. But it was all in the tweaking of picture settings and especially in paying attention to all those little details in presentation that most people don't think about.

So when it came time to do a projection-based system I was absolutely determined to put everything I'd learned about image presentation into play, and that meant always having the image floating against a big, solid black background - hence, masking.

My desire to vary the image size just made it all the more difficult, paired with this intractable desire for masked images.

Now that my projection set up is being seen by others I'm getting similar reactions from various folks who say they've experienced projection set ups
elsewhere, but have never had the impact or experience they find with this set up. Just recently the guys from the AV store who installed a lot of my equipment came over to see the results. This store is the largest installer in the city for flat panel and projection systems. But their top guys pretty much all said they hadn't seen anything quite like it and how much better the image looked than they've seen, even though they sell the same projector I'm using (JVC...but they sell newer versions). They were like "Holy sh#t."

Now, none of this means I've done anything remotely original (aside from, perhaps, the VIA thingy). The type of things I'm talking about you certainly know and most experienced AVSers are well aware of these ideas and many implement them. But even a lot of pro installers don't seem to pay the type of attention to detail that a lot of us do here. (Certainly their clients are likely quite happy so they don't need to).

But the take home point for me is how much all the little things add up when trying to present the best viewing experience. When people say things like "Oh, I don't actually notice X so doing something about it doesn't really matter"....I immediately suspect that they are wrong. The reason anyone gets good at something, be it art, engineering, or anything to do with presentation, is that they find out all the things that matter that other people don't realise, and they work on those issues. (I can't help but think here of Apple, and how even a lot of techies don't seem to get why Apple is selling so much more than other companies who have access to just as good or better technology...it's in the implementation and attention to detail). As for Home Theater, even people who never noticed a "problem" playing scope films on their 16:9 flat screen can immediately appreciate the impact of scope on a CIH system, because someone else cared and sweated the details in doing something about.

That's were obsessive types like you and me and the other nuts in this asylum can excel.

Rich H


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post #38 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 03:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

Rich-
I won't ask you what you paid for your lift, but I would imagine it is equivelent to 10 Yugo's.

No problem. It cost me 4 grand. Some cheaper versions of what they offer could have worked (between 2G/3G) but I wanted something really specific...and paid for it. I'm very happy though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

One other idea I had for apartment dwellers, etc. is to mount the PJ under the couch (slightly elevated) and point it away from the screen.

A first surface mirror at a 45 degree angle at the baseboard will shine the image up to another first surface mirror (larger) also at a 45 degree angle. The reflected image then gets projected onto the screen.

The first throw would be 2 feet, second throw would be about five feet, then final throw would be 8+ feet.

Keep in mind that you will lose about 10% of the PJ's brightness, or about 5% per mirror.

Don

Well that's the kind of creative thinking we need in this hobby

Rich H


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post #39 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 04:22 PM
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Very slick system and a beautiful room! I would love to have something similar.

Now you should only get one of the new Epsons with pre-programmable zoom, focus and lensshift positions and you could have it all at the push of one button.
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post #40 of 53 Old 09-06-2010, 05:33 PM
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I was going to say that, after reading all the discussions on the IFA 2010 thread. Maybe the JVC has similar offerings?


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I was wondering about the Epson in terms of it's lenshift/zoom memory function. I don't know how many image sizes can be preset into the Epson. (Anyone know?). I have 16 image size pre-sets on my universal remote and I doubt the Epson will offer the same.
A one button solution would be cool but I'm not put out otherwise as changing image sizes on my system is very fast and easy as it is.

Rich H


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post #42 of 53 Old 09-07-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

stanger89,

Something I'm not quite following here...

I'm here to confuse

Quote:


But if you don't find you need to "define" the side border of the screen via masking in your CIH (for non scope material) why would you suddenly need to do so in a VIA/CIA set up? Especially if, as you say, the image area beyond the image is so black? I guess it would be the new presence of the not perfectly black bars for scope content that would bug you?

I guess it's kind of like this, the top and bottom are well defined by my black velvet frame. That accounts for about 2/3+ of the image border (depending on aspect ratio). The parts that aren't as well masked are at the periphery of my vision (and only account for a small portion of the border too). And when I look at the image, I don't find myself noticing the "not black" space on the sides.

Quote:


BTW, does your use of a lens mean your projector is never projecting "black bars" for any AR? Or is your projector doing black bars for the sides of non-scope content?

Ah, well this brings us to the second part. The lens hanging in front of my projector today (Pamamorph P752) is always in place, so even when black the screen is consistently black (or not black if you will) all the way across.

However I've played recently without the P752 in place, and have a Prismasonic H5000R on the way, so we'll have to see how it goes with the two levels of black.

Quote:


VIA had no role in my opinion of masking; it only proved a pain in the ass because of the opinion I already held about masking.

I bought my plasma when Panasonic had just moved to it's 4th generation (in 2001 or 2002...can't remember). I experimented like a madman trying to get the most impressive image I could. Early on I made masks for my plasma for scope content and was hooked. It amazed me that covering "black bars" that were already pretty black had as profound an effect as it did.

I suspect if I hadn't gone scope so early on, I might have been the same way. It might have only been months after I got my first projector that I got a lens. And in those days I was in an utterly horrible white basement room. Things have improved a lot since then, but I've never felt the need to mask the sides....


Quote:


So when it came time to do a projection-based system I was absolutely determined to put everything I'd learned about image presentation into play, and that meant always having the image floating against a big, solid black background - hence, masking.

I have been meaning of late to go grab some hardboard or something and put some scrap velvet over it for some cheapo masks and see what I think, but haven't gotten around to it.

Quote:


Now that my projection set up is being seen by others I'm getting similar reactions from various folks who say they've experienced projection set ups
elsewhere, but have never had the impact or experience they find with this set up. Just recently the guys from the AV store who installed a lot of my equipment came over to see the results. This store is the largest installer in the city for flat panel and projection systems. But their top guys pretty much all said they hadn't seen anything quite like it and how much better the image looked than they've seen, even though they sell the same projector I'm using (JVC...but they sell newer versions). They were like "Holy sh#t."

It is most definitely, very nice looking.

Quote:


Now, none of this means I've done anything remotely original (aside from, perhaps, the VIA thingy). The type of things I'm talking about you certainly know and most experienced AVSers are well aware of these ideas and many implement them. But even a lot of pro installers don't seem to pay the type of attention to detail that a lot of us do here. (Certainly their clients are likely quite happy so they don't need to).

Way, way OT, but I've noticed that a lot, in a lot of areas. It seems "Pro" means little more than "paid to do it" these days. The exceptions seem rather rare, like the folks at AVS, or the other Pros who spend time here.

Quote:


But the take home point for me is how much all the little things add up when trying to present the best viewing experience.

Oh, agreed, that's sort of where I'm at now. I've got (or soon will have) a set of nice equipment that I'm happy-enough-with to not feel compelled to upgrade. So I'm beginning to fight the that last 90% (you know, 90% done, 90% left to go ).

Quote:


That's were obsessive types like you and me and the other nuts in this asylum can excel.

At least there's somewhere

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #43 of 53 Old 09-08-2010, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I think I get it stanger89.



Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

you know, 90% done, 90% left to go ).

LOL. That one is going up on my wall. The perfect description of the sisyphean task that is a home theater. (Well, at least for AVSers).


BTW...

jjmbxkb,

I looked at your home theater: Wow, what a beautiful room and set up. If that's a "budget" home theater you've done amazing things for the money. Cool dual screen set up too! I'm kind of curious what guests think of your dual screen system. I can imagine a continuum of reactions, on one side being AV/Home Theater enthusiasts thinking it's a really cool solution to some of the issues we focus on, to "regular folk" who might wonder "why bother with two screens, why not just project on to one?"

In my case I get a range of reactions to the automated screen size changes. Certainly quite a few "wows" from visitors, especially people enthusiastic about home theater. But there are also folks who, while impressed, don't know much about home theater and just seem to presume it may be a standard feature or something. As neato as some find my system, it's clear they would be plenty happy with a single screen size. (Funny enough: among the most enthusiastic crowd for watching the screen/image size changes are my son's friends when they crowd the sofa to watch a movie.
They just freak out).

Rich H


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post #44 of 53 Old 09-08-2010, 07:57 PM
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Hey Rich-

Just thinking about your throw distance. You essentially gave up 12-14 inches of throw in order to position the PJ behind the couch.

Obviously, there was a trade-off here. Just wondering if the shorter throw has impacted your viewing experience, and if there any "downsides" of having the PJ behind the couch?

Don't get me wrong - your theater is awesome, and is a model for what can be done with the space available.

Don
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post #45 of 53 Old 09-08-2010, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Don,

I didn't give up any possible throw distance in the room and actually maximised my throw distance by putting it behind the sofa. The lift was placed as close to the back wall (actually back window) as possible. The shelf on which the projector sits is open all around, allowing me to position the back of the projector as far back as possible. Right now the back of the projector just clears the back wall/window by a hairs breadth, literally a fraction of an inch. This has given me more throw than any other mounting possibility.

Given I wanted the option for as big an image as possible I ensured projector placement would allow maximum throw distance.

If there is any negative it is that the JVC projector is a bit deeper in size than the Panasonic AE900 that I used before it. Just those few inches of extra depth means that my max width image at the moment is about 120" wide, whereas with the shorter Panny (same zoom ratio) I could eek out up to 124/125" wide. My masking allows up to about 124" wide at this point.

The design and placement of the sofa and the projector lift takes into account the ability to add an anamorphic lens to the system (I made sure there's room between the front of the projector and the back of the sofa). It's easy to put in a new, deeper shelf (deeper forward of the lift) to accommodate an A-lens if I ever feel the need to get those last few inches of image size.

So far, though, I haven't felt the need. (It's also built to accommodate a hush box if I ever feel the need as well).

Basically, I can't think of a single downside to the projector being behind the sofa...just plenty of positives. I get the hidden projector effect when the room isn't in use. I get very easy access to the projector - just press a button and it lifts to whatever convenient height I need. Wiring is much easier than having to wire for a ceiling mount as well.

Another element that compelled me toward the lift is how suited it is to accommodating a variety of screen material choices. For instance I tried out the Da Lite High Power screen surface. Given it's screen surface is retro-reflective the High Power screen requires the projector to be close to the head height of the viewer to reap the benefits of the screen gain. Getting the exact projector height is effortless with this lift. In the end I went with a Stewart screen instead, which has the opposite requirement. Being an "angular reflective" screen surface, the Stewart screen works best when the projector is placed somewhat above screen height to produce an angle that reduces chances of hot-spotting and maintains good brightness. Again, no problem: the lift easily puts the projector high enough for proper angles to the Stewart screen.

For an AV geek like me who worries about "missing out" on various possibilities, this lift fits the bill perfectly.

Rich H


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post #46 of 53 Old 09-08-2010, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, since you have me going on this stuff: I sweated every detail of the room to allow as much flexibility in every parameter I could imagine, sonically, visually, in terms of how I wish to use the room or allow for future upgrading. I'm wired for future height sound channels if I desire. All the technology and mechanicals are made easily accessible (panels pull off everywhere to access whatever is needed...masking motors...wiring etc).

I can listen to the speakers in surround hooked up to my AV receiver, or switch them over to stereo listening from my vinyl and tube amp system. Since I'm an inveterate audiophile/music lover I made sure my side masking could completely close off my screen. That allows me to have the L/R speakers in the right position for spacious stereo imaging and I'm not staring at a big, blank white canvas between the speakers while listening to music. With the black velvet masking hiding the screen it can be just a big field of dark in front of me - much better for the illusion of performers filling that space.

Alternatively, I sometimes really like having the masking open because I also employed some color-changing remote controlled LED lights shining on the screen. See here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...9&postcount=41

The lights can be set to stay on specific colors, or do various "light show" things, but most often I have them on "slow blend" where they slowly alter colors of the screen. With the rest of the lights down, and a beer in hand, it's really cool and feels like being in a club. Sometimes I listen to the existing L/R monitors in the room (Hales speakers). Other times I whisk in some of my other speakers. Here are a pair of omnidirectional MBL speakers. You get a tiny idea of the colored lights on the screen, except they are way over-exposed on the Stewart screen material. They actually look white, whereas in real life the screen was a rich purple color:



We all work hard and deserve some time off don't we? It's not uncommon for me to work 24 to 36 hours straight on demanding schedules, so this room really has been fulfilling a great function in allowing a place of relaxation and a feeling of indulgence.

Rich H


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post #47 of 53 Old 09-08-2010, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The lights can be set to stay on specific colors, or do various "light show" things, but most often I have them on "slow blend" where they slowly alter colors of the screen. With the rest of the lights down, and a beer in hand, it's really cool and feels like being in a club. Sometimes I listen to the existing L/R monitors in the room (Hales speakers). Other times I whisk in some of my other speakers. Here are a pair of omnidirectional MBL speakers. You get a tiny idea of the colored lights on the screen, except they are way over-exposed on the Stewart screen material. They actually look white, whereas in real life the screen was a rich purple color:



We all work hard and deserve some time off don't we? It's not uncommon for me to work 24 to 36 hours straight on demanding schedules, so this room really has been fulfilling a great function in allowing a place of relaxation and a feeling of indulgence.

Rich I think those lights look great, I checked that site but it looks like you can only buy one lamp with the remote, how do you buy extra lamps separately?
I see that one remote can control a number of lamps.
http://www.uxsight.com/product/7157/...-bulb-12v.html

Murray Thompson

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I thought I'd correct myself: You really didn't give up any throw distance really, since the PJ would have been essentially the same distance away from the screen had it been mounted on the ceiling.

What you did give up is 12 inches of seating distance from the screen.

Having the PJ disappear when not in use is the ultimate. What you need to do now is figure out how to make the screen disappear.

Don
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

I thought I'd correct myself: You really didn't give up any throw distance really, since the PJ would have been essentially the same distance away from the screen had it been mounted on the ceiling.

What you did give up is 12 inches of seating distance from the screen.


In what way did I "give up" 12 inches of seating distance? Is there some benefit, somewhere, within some 12" I'm not using? I find the seating distance to my screen to be just perfect. I wouldn't want it any further away and I don't need it any closer. So, I'm not following your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somis View Post

Having the PJ disappear when not in use is the ultimate. What you need to do now is figure out how to make the screen disappear.

Don

Already done. See my post above - my side curtain/panels hide the screen entirely when not in use.

Rich H


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post #50 of 53 Old 09-09-2010, 11:35 AM
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Ok, I think I get it stanger89.

LOL. That one is going up on my wall. The perfect description of the sisyphean task that is a home theater. (Well, at least for AVSers).


BTW...

jjmbxkb,

I looked at your home theater: Wow, what a beautiful room and set up. If that's a "budget" home theater you've done amazing things for the money. Cool dual screen set up too! I'm kind of curious what guests think of your dual screen system. I can imagine a continuum of reactions, on one side being AV/Home Theater enthusiasts thinking it's a really cool solution to some of the issues we focus on, to "regular folk" who might wonder "why bother with two screens, why not just project on to one?"

In my case I get a range of reactions to the automated screen size changes. Certainly quite a few "wows" from visitors, especially people enthusiastic about home theater. But there are also folks who, while impressed, don't know much about home theater and just seem to presume it may be a standard feature or something. As neato as some find my system, it's clear they would be plenty happy with a single screen size. (Funny enough: among the most enthusiastic crowd for watching the screen/image size changes are my son's friends when they crowd the sofa to watch a movie.
They just freak out).

Hi, Rich: Sorry for the late reply. I missed the reminder.

That was a great line from stranger89.

Thanks again for your generous words.

From neighbors to furniture delivery guys, the first time someone realize there are two screens, they always ask why. Most vaguely follow my quick response, and then just sit down and enjoy the movie, forgetting all about it. There were occassions when I had to roll up or down the 16:9 screen to switch movie or to better display special feature, and they became the wow moments of my simple setup. On the other hand, once you are used to the improvements, even if it appared to be trivial at the beginning, you cannot live without them. This is certainly true for my wife, who thought I was over the top to go with 2 screens, and several close friends who are frequent movie night guests.

So, while I agree most will be and are happy with standard setup, I also think once people realize there are better options beyond the standard stuff, they do want to try. This is certainly the case for the AVS visitors/lurkers. The real question is what they are willing to do to achieve some or all of the reaminig 90%. For the dumb (lack of DIY skills), lazy (lack of DIY drive), and poor (or budget conscious), the use of 2 screens can be a way to go beyond standard CIW.

Your experiment is the real deal, giving hardcore DIYers a real challenge to push home theaters to even higher grounds.

Thanks very much.


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post #51 of 53 Old 09-09-2010, 12:54 PM
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I think the first time I heard it it was in relation to building an aircraft, sort of talks about the point in time at which you get the major stuff assembled and it looks like a plane, but there's all the little stuff left to do (all the wiring, finishing, and whatnot). But it's so applicable to all sorts of things. Like HT, hang a projector, screen and hook up your audio/source and in some sense you're 90% there, it all works. But on the other hand that's the easy part, maybe only 10% of your time, the rest can go into finishing off all the details like acoustic treatments, masking, correct paint/decor, automation, etc.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #52 of 53 Old 09-09-2010, 06:38 PM
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Definitely true.


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post #53 of 53 Old 09-10-2010, 05:03 PM
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Sorry Rich - missed the curtain part of the thread!

Seating distance can be subjective. So long as you like it, that's what counts.

Don
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