Just got my French Prisms - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 303 Old 05-19-2010, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partridgewest View Post

Panamorphic lenses are around $2500 and so are the prismasonic like the ones on CAVX's blogspot. $9000 for the runco, you say?

Panamorph make a prisms based VC lens for about $2K. Their prisms based HE lens is a fair bit more due to the added correction elements needed to make the image clean - IE CA and astigmatism correction that VC design does not have.

Prismasonic also make prism based HE lenses (with a pass through). They too have CA and astigmatism correction.

The lenses used by Runco are true cylindrical lenses and cost significantly more, however are the only lenses that allow perfect focus from corner to corner and why I also use cylindrical lenses in my MK4 lens.

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because that perfection just doesn't exist

It does, however it comes at a cost.

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it's pennywise to chase returns and specifications at the top of this VERY steep curve.

Normally, the returns are minimal as you go up in quality in HT gear, however with anamorphic lenses, it seem the more you spend the better it gets and buy a huge difference. The "law of dimishing returns" does not apply here.

Look, I'm not intentionally bashing the DIY lens as I started there myself. In fact I was the guy that posted the very first screen caps (THE ANIMATRIX) when the trophies were discovered in '06. I am just keeping it real though.

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post #272 of 303 Old 05-19-2010, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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We'll I can certainly appreciate both sides, and if I were able to I would love to buy a professional lens, ISCO, Schneider, CAVX or otherwise. Truth of the matter is that it's not gonna happen any time soon.

Having said that I am thrilled that I am able to get into the game in a sensible and affordable way for me. IMO the Surplus Shed prisms outperform the trophy prisms for around the same cost and I have never had any major issue with normal movie viewing. Until I hit the lotto, I will be enjoying my DIY lens.
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post #273 of 303 Old 05-19-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oman321 View Post

IMO the Surplus Shed prisms outperform the trophy prisms for around the same cost and I have never had any major issue with normal movie viewing. Until I hit the lotto, I will be enjoying my DIY lens.

And that is due to the surface quality of the glass. You could probably request the S/D figure where you'll never get that from the trophy manufacture. And just because the surface looks smooth doesn't make it so.

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post #274 of 303 Old 05-19-2010, 06:05 PM
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Oman's right. Unless you've money burning a hole in your pocket or access to professionally produced anamorphics fairly cheaply, dropping a few grand is pure nuts in this economy. That 2 or 3 grand is good for a few american made power recliners.... or a about 100 or so blu ray titles at retail cost....

CAVX said perfection comes at a cost. We haven't reached that yet - there's always room for improvement. Like the new 2k pixel vs 1080p Sony projectors that actually need fouroda pre-processing to upscale a blu ray image ( and they're just awesome! ) But I bet CAVX will start singing the same tune I'm singing now -- not a dimes worth of difference and certainly not scores of thousands of dollars more than a RUNCO or christie light cannon! Trade-offs? Yes. But then again, I m not pimping projectors or lenses yet, so let's be creative when something ridiculously expensive can be had with a "neat trick" and a little ingenuity .
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post #275 of 303 Old 05-20-2010, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partridgewest View Post

Oman's right. Unless you've money burning a hole in your pocket or access to professionally produced anamorphics fairly cheaply, dropping a few grand is pure nuts in this economy. That 2 or 3 grand is good for a few american made power recliners.... or a about 100 or so blu ray titles at retail cost....

A good lens is up to three times that, so up to 300 BD at retail.

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CAVX said perfection comes at a cost. We haven't reached that yet - there's always room for improvement. Like the new 2k pixel vs 1080p Sony projectors that actually need fouroda pre-processing to upscale a blu ray image ( and they're just awesome! ) But I bet CAVX will start singing the same tune I'm singing now -- not a dimes worth of difference and certainly not scores of thousands of dollars more than a RUNCO or christie light cannon! Trade-offs? Yes. But then again, I m not pimping projectors or lenses yet, so let's be creative when something ridiculously expensive can be had with a "neat trick" and a little ingenuity .

Not sure where your going with this. I was simply stating facts having been there, done that. CA correction bugged the hell out of me so correcting that was a priority, not a maybe. Then I got to experience sharper focus and again I wanted better than I had. I'm not sure how many films you watch. I watch at least one a day and have watched 6 in a day. Why? I am in this industry and watching films is part of the job description.

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post #276 of 303 Old 05-20-2010, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully one day CIH will become more mainstream (I know I'm dreaming) whether that is in the form of projector, lens os some other option, and we can all benifit from a pro made product at a reasonable cost.

Yes it's nice that I can get away with a DIY product, and get the enjoyment of having the cinemascope effect. Can it be better with a pro product,of course. Will my friends and family notice the difference for the difference in cost, probably not unless their enthusiasts like us.

When I 1st started looking into CIH, zooming wasn't really a viable option, folks had just recently started to try and make their own lens' and soon after trophy prisms came about.

I kind of got lucky with the so called "french prism" unauthorized power buy and thought I had lost my money because they took so long to get produced and shipped, but the prisms did show up. I went for these vs. the trophy prisms which were also being pushed as a group buy to be sent for AR coating, at about the same time because they were already AR coated and made of BK7 glass.

Thru a variety of sources I found those features to be good things, including the information Mark has shared here and on other sites. I have always appreciated CAVX's candor about what his product can offer, from the 1st rendition to his latest. He has always been willing to help folks out whether your a DIY'er or using any pro product. Being in the biz makes it justifiable to have the best product you can get and/or make (besides it's probably all a write off).

Hmmmm....I've wanted to get into the biz, in fact I do some stuff as side jobs for folks. If I can get enough business I can write off a pro lens too.

I know I'm dreaming again I got a kid going into college can't afford a carreer change now.
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post #277 of 303 Old 07-06-2010, 10:51 AM
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Just been notified that my back order french prisms are in stock - order placed....
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post #278 of 303 Old 07-07-2010, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbarron View Post

Just been notified that my back order french prisms are in stock - order placed....

That's great dbbarron, please post some pics of what you come up with for an enclousure. Some screen shots is always nice too.
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post #279 of 303 Old 08-03-2010, 10:33 AM
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Just 'installed' the prisms using the positioning diagram early in this thread. Mounted on a shelf just in front of the DLA-HS15 projector.

A few comments:
1)Definitely no longer in perfect focus.
2)definitely some pincushion distortion - about an inch at the 16:9 extents of the screen; square at 2.35:1 extents (I think).
3)at least a few pixels of horizontal CA at 2.35:1 extents.
4)Despite all this, from the viewing distance, looks great with 2.35:1 content. Even with 16:9 content, the focus, CA and geometric distorsion issues are really not noticeable from the viewing distance.

Can't easily A/B compare, so I just can't say what looks better or worse, etc. Just going to live with the prisms on the temporary shelf for awhile.

All these problems seem typical given this thread. Any comments appreciated.

db
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post #280 of 303 Old 08-03-2010, 11:27 AM
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Take a look on the Universal Astigmatism Correction Element (UACE) of Anamorphic Research. It really improves the corner-to-corner focus of a 2 prism-based lens and makes the picture much sharper.
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post #281 of 303 Old 08-04-2010, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widlarizer View Post

Take a look on the Universal Astigmatism Correction Element (UACE) of Anamorphic Research. It really improves the corner-to-corner focus of a 2 prism-based lens and makes the picture much sharper.

I`ve been thinkin about getting that lens to my DIY lens.
But slight astigmatism doesn`t bother me as much as CA i get with my lens.
So i`ve decided to save that $315 to my future 4 or 5 element lens upgrade. They are just so darn expensive.

BTW, does anyone have any succesful 4-prisms DIY lens experiences to share?
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post #282 of 303 Old 08-04-2010, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbarron View Post

Just 'installed' the prisms using the positioning diagram early in this thread. Mounted on a shelf just in front of the DLA-HS15 projector.

A few comments:
1)Definitely no longer in perfect focus.
2)definitely some pincushion distortion - about an inch at the 16:9 extents of the screen; square at 2.35:1 extents (I think).
3)at least a few pixels of horizontal CA at 2.35:1 extents.
4)Despite all this, from the viewing distance, looks great with 2.35:1 content. Even with 16:9 content, the focus, CA and geometric distorsion issues are really not noticeable from the viewing distance.

Can't easily A/B compare, so I just can't say what looks better or worse, etc. Just going to live with the prisms on the temporary shelf for awhile.

All these problems seem typical given this thread. Any comments appreciated.

db

Silly question DB, but did you try to refocus a bit?
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post #283 of 303 Old 08-06-2010, 07:23 AM
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Donhou,

Cavx once played around with a 4 prisms prototype while he was developing his MK 2. But as i remember, he said that there were too many problems with non-cemented prisms.
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post #284 of 303 Old 08-06-2010, 07:00 PM
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To get CA correction to work with prisms, each prism needs to have a minimum of two different refractive index materials cemented together with their apexes opposing so that the final piece of glass is still a prism.

Getting the correct materials, with a appropriate surface quality and bonding without bubbles is why no DIY solution was ever realized.

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post #285 of 303 Old 08-06-2010, 10:30 PM
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I am currently using a 4 prism diy lens and hope to add the home theater brothers Universal Astigmatism Correction Element within the next couple months to see how much the focus improves, so far the ca with my diy 4 prism lens looks reduced over the 2 prism, but still have to do some more testing to make sure that it's not my eyes fooling me. I'll have some pictures up soon...
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post #286 of 303 Old 08-06-2010, 10:48 PM
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Are both apexes of each prism pair facing the same direction?

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post #287 of 303 Old 08-07-2010, 12:11 AM
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Cavx, I'm not quite sure that I understand your question, could you give me further explaination or a quick sketch of what you mean by "apexes facing the same direction"? My current setup of the prism pairs is like so:see attachment... Might have to hold off on the pictures for a while because they are coming out terrible, have to read the camera manual once again.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the diy anamorphic lens research...
LL
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post #288 of 303 Old 08-07-2010, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plewacka View Post

Cavx, I'm not quite sure that I understand your question, could you give me further explaination or a quick sketch of what you mean by "apexes facing the same direction"? My current setup of the prism pairs is like so:see attachment... Might have to hold off on the pictures for a while because they are coming out terrible, have to read the camera manual once again.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the diy anamorphic lens research...

Based on the attached image, CA correction can not work. The diagram shows what would be 4prisms (2 prism pairs) of the same material and same angle and same orientation.

CA correction would require one prism of each pair to be:
1. reversed
2. made of a different material
3. have a different angle to the other prism.

If you were to reverse one prism of each pair you will find that the prisms now form a rectangle.

Is this making sense?

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post #289 of 303 Old 08-07-2010, 04:02 AM
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Ah, yes, that's what I was confused about, the prisms in each prism pair have to be facing in opposite directions, one apex up, one apex down, so this is not going to work with these trophy prisms, because the angles would not allow to keep a prism shape, instead they would form a rectangle box, not allowing for proper stretch. Did some more testing, and it seems that the CA is not actually reduced, , but will continue to test and see if there are any improvements with the 4 prism lens... Thanks Cavx
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post #290 of 303 Old 08-07-2010, 04:25 AM
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Do you remember seeing different angled prisms (trophies) on the DIY Audio site? There was a Perspex prism at some 30degrees and I think if you combined it with a thin optic glass trophy of say 8 degrees (oppose the apexes), you might have some luck. The end prism would be HUGE (not to mention heavy), however you'd have two different materials and still retain a basic prism shape. A pair of these could then be used to make an anamorphic lens. I'm not saying it would even work, but might be worth looking into given that what was done at DIY by myself and others was also not supposed to work.

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post #291 of 303 Old 08-31-2010, 01:26 PM
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Oman321, thanks for your inputs here.

I tried the surplus shed prisms with benq w6000 and the results are very good to my eyes.
There is some CA on the left side, but it is apparent only with grid pattern, I don't see any issues with movies.

I will probably stick with these for now.

Thanks!
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post #292 of 303 Old 08-31-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeav View Post

There is some CA on the left side

If these prisms are aligned properly, you should be getting equal amounts of CA on each side, not just the left.

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post #293 of 303 Old 08-31-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

If these prisms are aligned properly, you should be getting equal amounts of CA on each side, not just the left.

Will try again when my screen is ready. Now I had projected off a wall for testing.

The final throw will be 14ft vs 10ft now, so I guess CA will get more pronounced?
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post #294 of 303 Old 08-31-2010, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeav View Post

Will try again when my screen is ready. Now I had projected off a wall for testing.

The final throw will be 14ft vs 10ft now, so I guess CA will get more pronounced?

If your increasing your TR, then CA should be [slightly] less. It takes achromatic doublets to correct CA. To align these properly, you are going to need a screen with an AR of 2.37:1. It is also good if you have side masking back to 1.78:1 to ensue that your projector is perfectly centered before you add the prisms.

If you don't have a Scope screen yet [or side masking], another way to do this would be to:
1. set up your projector at the same throw you will use in the final system
2. project the native 16:9 image on your wall and use masking tape to mark out a 16:9 screen
3. run the projector in 4 x 3 mode and align the prisms to that.

Doing so will set them to roughly 1.33x so that won't change [for a given throw] when you make your Scope screen and you will be one step closer to Scope.

The thing to remember is, even though one prism is larger, both have the same 20 degree angle. When your alignment is correct, CA will be even on both sides. You'll also have astigmatism, and you can't fix that without additional cost, but at least you will know why it is there.

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post #295 of 303 Old 09-01-2010, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeav View Post

Oman321, thanks for your inputs here.

I tried the surplus shed prisms with benq w6000 and the results are very good to my eyes.
There is some CA on the left side, but it is apparent only with grid pattern, I don't see any issues with movies.

I will probably stick with these for now.

Thanks!

Glad to be of service. Just my way of giving back to this awesome community. I still enjoy the great bargain these prisms are and the performance vs. cost ratio they deliver.

Post some pics once your set up, its nice to see others setups.
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post #296 of 303 Old 09-01-2010, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

If these prisms are aligned properly, you should be getting equal amounts of CA on each side, not just the left.


Hi CAVX & dukeav,

I recently bought these prisms too, and I also get some CA on the left hand side only. I have spent time trying to mitigate this but it seems no matter how I place the projector (horizontal plane) and/or adjust the lens shift, the CA stays on the left side and I don't see any on the right, just slightly fuzzy white vertical bars.
It is not a big deal as the CA isn't intrusive during video, but if I could minimise it further by even-ing it out then that should be an improvement.

I will spend some more time checking the alignment, are there any good methods for this? i.e.: establishing the centre and right angle.
Also, I wonder if height positioning adds to this, my projector sits about a foot higher than the top of the screen, I'm aware that this will give me a trapezoid shape picture, but I wonder if this will increase CA or is CA just a horizontal placement artefact?

Relevant specs:
PJ (JVC HD350)
Throw 200" (16.6ft)
2.37:1 Screen width is 106" (8.83ft). 16x9 is 79"
Seating distance 126" (10.5ft)

Cheers all
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post #297 of 303 Old 09-01-2010, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunkymonkey76 View Post

I wonder if this will increase CA or is CA just a horizontal placement artefact?

CA will be most noticeable on high contrast vertical lines in the image.

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post #298 of 303 Old 09-02-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oman321 View Post

Glad to be of service. Just my way of giving back to this awesome community. I still enjoy the great bargain these prisms are and the performance vs. cost ratio they deliver.

Post some pics once your set up, its nice to see others setups.

Will do. For now I have used (no laughing please), the cardboard box the prisms came to make the enclosure. Let me see if I can make it more professional...
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post #299 of 303 Old 09-02-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chunkymonkey76 View Post

Hi CAVX & dukeav,

I recently bought these prisms too, and I also get some CA on the left hand side only. I have spent time trying to mitigate this but it seems no matter how I place the projector (horizontal plane) and/or adjust the lens shift, the CA stays on the left side and I don't see any on the right, just slightly fuzzy white vertical bars.
...

Mark and oman321 are the experts, from Mark's comment I am guessing the having the projector not exactly square with screen may be causing to have CA only on one side. So try squaring the projector without prisms first...

My stuff is back in the box for week before I install everything, so I can't test. Mark/Oman321?
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post #300 of 303 Old 09-02-2010, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeav View Post

Will do. For now I have used (no laughing please), the cardboard box the prisms came to make the enclosure. Let me see if I can make it more professional...

That's awesome...

I used to think that CA was primarily only in the left because it is most evident in the far left edge/side of the image. There is a CA effect that is viewable from top to bottom on the left edge of the image. Not long ago someone saying it was present on the right and that it is easiest to see with a grid pattern. So I threw the grid pattern from my scaler up and got close to the screen (within a foot) to see that in fact it was there on the right side. Not at the edge as much but within the first 2 feet of the right side.

The good news is that in normal viewing it has never been an issue. The left side is just zoomed a tad onto the border to get rid of that leading edge.
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