4-Way Acoustically Transparent Masking - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 836 Old 07-07-2011, 08:31 PM
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Are you using the relays specified earlier in this thread? Those are what I'm using and mine is working fine.
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post #782 of 836 Old 07-11-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post

Are you using the relays specified earlier in this thread? Those are what I'm using and mine is working fine.

No I am using a different relay because I am using a 110v motor to run the masking. Here is what I am using PB170-ND


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post #783 of 836 Old 05-25-2012, 10:16 PM
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Hi Scott (the op of this thread), How is your system doing? Any changes made?
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post #784 of 836 Old 05-26-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The system is still working beautifully and I have not made any changes. I use it several times a week. I am very happy with the system but I've seen a couple other threads where people have incorporated improvements.

One thing I have found that is much LESS useful than I originally thought was the whole idea of having presets. I have discovered that many movies do not exactly adhere to the standards and sometimes shift the picture off-centered vertically and/or horizontally just a bit. The presets were a nice idea for the masking, but I end up either having to manually tweak the masking position or else over-scan the picture onto the masking. If I were to do it over, I would probably just set it up to open and close on a pushbutton hold from my remote and then just always stop it exactly where I want it. In my opinion, all of the presets just become an overrated complexity.

Overall, I am still extremely pleased! If I ever move or modify my theater, full masking will always be one of my requirements.
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post #785 of 836 Old 05-26-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post


One thing I have found that is much LESS useful than I originally thought was the whole idea of having presets. I have discovered that many movies do not exactly adhere to the standards and sometimes shift the picture off-centered vertically and/or horizontally just a bit. The presets were a nice idea for the masking, but I end up either having to manually tweak the masking position or else over-scan the picture onto the masking. If I were to do it over, I would probably just set it up to open and close on a pushbutton hold from my remote and then just always stop it exactly where I want it. In my opinion, all of the presets just become an overrated complexity.

Interesting. Your experience perhaps speaks to differences in how we both use our 4 way masking systems. Mine is 4-way, remote controlled, with lots of pre-sets. I use a Variable Size System - just varying entire image sizes to my taste, and I've got something like 18 pre-sets for different ARs at different sizes.

When I was designing my system I didn't know whether I'd tend to just re-size the image and then re-size the masking to fit, or whether I'd end up employing pre-sets at all. It turned out that pre-sets were extremely helpful.
If I didn't have pre-sets and I changed from a smaller image to a larger image I'd have to do something like:

1. Press a button or two and wait for all the masking to open up revealing the full screen space.
2. Re-size the image using the zoom control.
3. Start jogging the side masking in until it meets the sides of the image.
4. Shift the image vertically upward (because zooming lowers the image center of the image) until it seems centered.
5. Shift the top/bottom masking to fit...probably having to fine tune vertical image shift again as well.

With my image pre-sets I know have a good idea how big or small I want the image. So now if I want to shift the image to a new bigger (or smaller or wider...) size I:

1. Press the macro button for the new image size.
2. While the screen is changing the macro puts the lens "zoom" function on screen and I press zoom, letting go when it finishes expanding to meet the sides of the new pre-set image.
3. Shift image vertically into place.

Done. Takes about 12 seconds. (Unless the image is somehow non-standard and another jog of the vertical masking button is required).

I find it much easier to zoom the image to fit the masked image size than I do trying to both zoom the image AND re-fit the masking to the image.

But, again, that's probably because of the way I'm doing things vs. your approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Overall, I am still extremely pleased! If I ever move or modify my theater, full masking will always be one of my requirements.

So true. My whole system was designed around the concept of masking and having the image surrounded by black. Goal one for any other system I might set up in the future.

Yours looks fantastic!

Rich H


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post #786 of 836 Old 05-30-2012, 06:43 AM
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While mine is only 2 way I also love the presets and wouldn't be with out them. I have got it down to where I really only need 4 now. 4:3, 16:9, 1.85, and 2.40.

Anything that is over 1.85 I project as 2.4, the very small amount of over spill top and bottom is lost in the masking. With my screen I only have about 5/8" of an inch of over spill when progecting 2.35 and 2.40 so it is next to nothing. Electronic masking gets rid of any over spill that is on top so that is no issue.

I am on the middle of planning a complete revamp to my system, which has been pretty flawless so far. Wish I could find a better option then the rotor but really haven't so far. It does work but can be finiky once in a while.

I was planning 4 way originally. But now after having it I am really glad I only did two way, I think the 4 way would have been over kill for me. But may be do to my screen size, 56.5" tall.


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post #787 of 836 Old 11-27-2012, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Teecue,

I think that since we have found a good motorization option, you are correct. The cable wrap as I did it in my manual design is not needed any longer. I think you are right that the answer now is to have tension on the roller to keep the fabric tight. The tension could be from a weight, like you have shown, or could be from a spring mechanism. Way back in the thread the idea was suggested to use a tool balancer spring. I think any of the ideas that build on this roller tension concept is the right way to go.

- Scott

Scott:

How did you finally end up implementing the 'roller end' of the 'cable wrap'? Do you have any pictures to post? Also, any pictures to post on the horizontal masks? Thanks. I am getting ready to implement this system.


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post #788 of 836 Old 12-02-2012, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

PARTS LIST


This setup uses the controller and hall sensor encoder from an Eagle Aspen Antenna Rotator with a separate DC gear motor to create a theater masking motor solution with the following features:
  • - Full IR control that can be “learned” by a universal remote
  • - 99 easily programmable aspect ratios
  • - Non-volatile memory (the preset aspect ratios will not be lost if the power goes out).
  • - Low cost (can be done for around $200 per motor)


PEASE NOTE! There are many ways to accomplish this DIY project. I mounted the Eagle Aspen encoder directly to my DC gear motor, but others have accomplished the same thing by attaching the small Eagle Aspen motor to the DC gear motor. The parts list below simply explains how I did mine. You may find that your situation requires alternative solutions.

PARTS LIST (for the basic setup):

1) DC Gear Motor – find a gear motor that has an RPM of between 15 and 30 RPM with good torque (20 inch pounds or better). It should probably be rated at less than 5 amps in order to keep the cost of the power supply at a reasonable level. Ideally the motor should have an exposed rear shaft. If it doesn’t, you need be able to get access to the rear shaft in order to extend it. Finally if you can find a right angle gear motor that uses a worm drive, the worm drive will provide some natural breaking ability if your masking will have a constant pull against the motor when the motor is turned off. I found a Dayton IL477 on ebay for $35.


- Scott

Will this motor do the job?


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post #789 of 836 Old 12-02-2012, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Will this motor do the job?

No one can really answer that. It all depends on how much torque it takes to run your masking, the motor has to have enough power to do it.

The one you show doesn't have a rear shaft extended so you are going to have to do a little work on it.

I picked up on of these Gear Motor used on E-Bay for $45. Has alot more torque and extended rear shaft. Plus it is 120v so no need for power supply. I haven't used it yet as I am doing a redesign on my system that will use it.


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post #790 of 836 Old 12-08-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

While mine is only 2 way I also love the presets and wouldn't be with out them. I have got it down to where I really only need 4 now. 4:3, 16:9, 1.85, and 2.40.


Anything that is over 1.85 I project as 2.4, the very small amount of over spill top and bottom is lost in the masking. With my screen I only have about 5/8" of an inch of over spill when progecting 2.35 and 2.40 so it is next to nothing. Electronic masking gets rid of any over spill that is on top so that is no issue.


I am on the middle of planning a complete revamp to my system, which has been pretty flawless so far. Wish I could find a better option then the rotor but really haven't so far. It does work but can be finiky once in a while.


I was planning 4 way originally. But now after having it I am really glad I only did two way, I think the 4 way would have been over kill for me. But may be do to my screen size, 56.5" tall.

Were you able to eventually eliminate all the problems/hiccups you were having with your motorized system? And if you ever watch a movie with an aspect ratio of greater than 2.40, what do you do? (e.g. Ben Hur, Lawrence of Arabia)


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post #791 of 836 Old 12-10-2012, 09:11 AM
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I can actually go 2.55 ratio max. But really I have never watched anything over 2.4. If I did I think what I would do it fit the image to the height of my screen and loose the image on the sides that falls over the masking.

Depending on what problems you are talking about, yes my system has been running pretty much perfect right now. But I am actually going to complete redo it this winter, have my plans almost done. What I have works but it is pretty noisey and I am getting alot of wear on the threaded rod type of system that I used.


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post #792 of 836 Old 12-29-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

But I am actually going to complete redo it this winter, have my plans almost done. What I have works but it is pretty noisey and I am getting alot of wear on the threaded rod type of system that I used.

What are the changes that you are making to the masking system? I am building mine now. Would appreciate any new insights. Thanks


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post #793 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't been on the forum too much lately -- sorry to have missed some of this discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Scott:
How did you finally end up implementing the 'roller end' of the 'cable wrap'? Do you have any pictures to post? Also, any pictures to post on the horizontal masks? Thanks. I am getting ready to implement this system.

I'm still using the gorilla tape as shown in this post. It's not pretty, but it has worked fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

... And if you ever watch a movie with an aspect ratio of greater than 2.40, what do you do? (e.g. Ben Hur, Lawrence of Arabia)

If I watch a movie greater than 2.40, the height of the image does not fill the whole screen. I end up with black bars above and below the picuture. This is where I use my top and bottom masking.



I am going to redo the motorization part of my masking system. My Eagle Aspen rotor finally stopped working (same problem almost everyone else has had). This time I am not going to worry about presets. I would rather just get the image to the size I want and then simply press a button to move the masking to match the image. I have found that there is variability in the actual projected image size of different movies that claim a given aspect ratio. In other words, if I have my masking set at exactly 1.35 there are some 1.35 movies that don't truly fit. For me it will be easier to just move the masking to fit the projected image rather than worry about exact mathmatical aspect ratios.

This time, I am going to use two Xantech CC12 IR relays for each mask. I will wire them similar to what is shown here:

I will program one button on my universal remote to move the masks in and one button to move them out. I should be able to match any picture size within a matter of 3 or 4 seconds.

I already have all of the parts, but it is going to take me a while to get the changes completed. I had a sewer line back up in my basement and it caused quite a bit of water damage in my theater. I'm in the middle the repairs and won't get to my masking system until the other issues are resolved.
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post #794 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

I haven't been on the forum too much lately -- sorry to have missed some of this discussion...
I'm still using the gorilla tape as shown in this post. It's not pretty, but it has worked fine.
If I watch a movie greater than 2.40, the height of the image does not fill the whole screen. I end up with black bars above and below the picuture. This is where I use my top and bottom masking.
I am going to redo the motorization part of my masking system. My Eagle Aspen rotor finally stopped working (same problem almost everyone else has had). This time I am not going to worry about presets. I would rather just get the image to the size I want and then simply press a button to move the masking to match the image. I have found that there is variability in the actual projected image size of different movies that claim a given aspect ratio. In other words, if I have my masking set at exactly 1.35 there are some 1.35 movies that don't truly fit. For me it will be easier to just move the masking to fit the projected image rather than worry about exact mathmatical aspect ratios.
This time, I am going to use two Xantech CC12 IR relays for each mask.
I will program one button on my universal remote to move the masks in and one button to move them out. I should be able to match any picture size within a matter of 3 or 4 seconds.
I already have all of the parts, but it is going to take me a while to get the changes completed. I had a sewer line back up in my basement and it caused quite a bit of water damage in my theater. I'm in the middle the repairs and won't get to my masking system until the other issues are resolved.
Sorry to hear about the sewer line backup.
I didnt realize that people were having problems with the Eagle Aspen rotors. I didn't see too many problems on this forum. Timely feedback - I will change tack and drop the idea of presets. Did/will you motorize the horizontal masking as well?
Thanks


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post #795 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

I haven't been on the forum too much lately -- sorry to have missed some of this discussion...

This time, I am going to use two Xantech CC12 IR relays for each mask. I will wire them similar to what is shown here:

I will program one button on my universal remote to move the masks in and one button to move them out. I should be able to match any picture size within a matter of 3 or 4 seconds.
I already have all of the parts, but it is going to take me a while to get the changes completed. I had a sewer line back up in my basement and it caused quite a bit of water damage in my theater. I'm in the middle the repairs and won't get to my masking system until the other issues are resolved.
I think that your diagram is wrong (slightly). The polarity on one of the relay switches should be opposite of the other one. You have them wired identically. Instead, when one is functioning as negative, the other should be functioning as positive.


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post #796 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

...I didnt realize that people were having problems with the Eagle Aspen rotors. I didn't see too many problems on this forum. Timely feedback - I will change tack and drop the idea of presets. Did/will you motorize the horizontal masking as well?
Thanks
Several people have had the Eagle Aspen rotors malfunction and seem to loose their ability to reset. My first rotor did this but the replacement has worked well for several years. After I unplugged everything after my water damage, my rotor stopped working correctly again. I'm not going to attempt to replace it a second time.

I think the Xantech relay solution will be a much more reliable and simpler approach. I was able to find some slightly used relays on e-b-a-y for about $50 each. They require a remote from Xantech that programs the buttons and also is used to "teach" your universal remote the IR commands. I found the Xantech remote for about $90.

Yes, I am going to motorized the horizontal (top & bottom) masking as well. I have all of the parts so I'll do that when I fix the side masking. I'll post some pictures when I do it. It might be several weeks before I get to it though.

- Scott
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post #797 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

I think that your diagram is wrong (slightly). The polarity on one of the relay switches should be opposite of the other one. You have them wired identically. Instead, when one is functioning as negative, the other should be functioning as positive.
The diagram shows the circuit when it is "off". The NC (normally closed) circuit of each relay is connected to the ground so that when neither relay is activiated the motor is not running. Each relay will be programmed to a separate button on the universal remote. When one button is pressed, it will activate that relay. When activated, one relay will make the motor run forward since it will complete the positive side of the circuit to the motor. When the other is activated, it will run the motor in reverse since the oposite side of the motor will be connected to the positive polarity. If both buttons are activated the motor will stop because there will be positive polarity going to both sides of the motor with no ground.

(Edit: I should also note that the buttons on the remote will operate in "momentary" mode. In other words they operate the relay only while they are held down. As soon as you let go of the button, the relay will revert to the "NC" mode and the motor will stop.)
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post #798 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Yes, I am going to motorized the horizontal (top & bottom) masking as well. I have all of the parts so I'll do that when I fix the side masking. I'll post some pictures when I do it. It might be several weeks before I get to it though.
- Scott
In a CIH setup with an anamorphic lens, you may not need to move the top and bottom masks much. Mopar Mudder decided against it, and I am contemplating only a single motor (although I did make provisions to motorize them if I decide to later on)


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post #799 of 836 Old 12-30-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

This time, I am going to use two Xantech CC12 IR relays for each mask.
For a total of 4 CC12s? All four masks will be independently controllable?


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post #800 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

In a CIH setup with an anamorphic lens, you may not need to move the top and bottom masks much. Mopar Mudder decided against it, and I am contemplating only a single motor (although I did make provisions to motorize them if I decide to later on)
You're right. I only use my top and bottom masks once in a while. They also make the build quite a bit more complicated. I would say that if you don't mind spending the extra money and like tinkering with this kind of thing as a hobby, then go ahead a do the top and bottom masks since they do come in useful once in a while. Otherwise just do the side masking and I think you will still be very happy with the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

For a total of 4 CC12s? All four masks will be independently controllable?
It actually will take two CC12s for each motor with the way I have it wired. Activating one CC12 causes the motor to go forward. Activating the other casuses the motor to go in reverse. So I will have 4 CC12s for two motors. One motor runs the side masking. One motor runs the top/bottom masking.

If someone can figure out how to wire up a single CC12 to a motor and have full forward, reverse, and stop functionality, that would be great!. The CC12 is a DPDT relay, so you could easily do forward and reverse with one CC12, but there is no center/off position.
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post #801 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

What are the changes that you are making to the masking system? I am building mine now. Would appreciate any new insights. Thanks

I am going to a cable and pulley system -vrs- the threaded rod type system that I have now. That will alow me to use a motor in the 15rpm area instead of 800rpms that I am at now. What I have works perfect but I would like it alot quieter and and I am getting some metal filings behind the screen from the threaded rods. If I wanted to spend alot of money I could do a far simpler set-up. But I am being cheap and the design is 1/2 the fun. I have it all designed and drawn up in Sketchup, hope to maybe start and making parts next month.

As far as the rotor goes I have had no issues with doing the rest once I figured out how to make it work. What I have to do is after calling for a reset wait for the masking to get to its full open position and kill power to the motor only. I have a simple switch on the masking wall that will cut power to the motor incase something were to go wrong. Doing this is resets perfect every time. If I don't do this the motor will advance the masking slightly at the very end of the reset, then it will always try and open like it is reversed. Again just shutting of the power to the motor so it can't do that little advance make it work eveytime. I have an idea it has to do with the reset switches, either their is a timing it is looking for from once switch to the next or something.

The other problem that I had after about a year I can no longer fully close my masking. Well I can but then when I try and open it again it will only open about 1/2 way and then rotor control goes all crazy and I have to leave it uplugged for like 1/2 hour before it will work again. I tried contacting Eagle and the best I could get was it may be drawing too much power and shutting down. So possibly the relays that I use to run my 110v motor are drawing too much? New system will have a much smaller motor and alow me to use a small silent relay, the ones I have now you can hear click.


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post #802 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

It actually will take two CC12s for each motor with the way I have it wired. Activating one CC12 causes the motor to go forward. Activating the other casuses the motor to go in reverse. So I will have 4 CC12s for two motors. One motor runs the side masking. One motor runs the top/bottom masking.
If someone can figure out how to wire up a single CC12 to a motor and have full forward, reverse, and stop functionality, that would be great!. The CC12 is a DPDT relay, so you could easily do forward and reverse with one CC12, but there is no center/off position.
Aren't there relays available that will allow independent control of two switches?
And this figure at Xantech's website shows the CC12 connected to the 'Up/Down' terminals of the device to be controlled. What does the 'Momentary' terminal do?

Also, Figure 5 of the manual (available at http://www.xantech.com/manuals/CC12.pdf) describes how the Momentary (MMT) command works for the CC12. Could that offer a solution?

Also, how did you fasten the masking to the roller bars?


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post #803 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

New system will have a much smaller motor and alow me to use a small silent relay, the ones I have now you can here click.
Thanks for sharing. Your link does not work. I am abandoning the Eagle Aspen rotor path and pursuing the Xantech (or equivalent) method that Scott described.


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post #804 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Thanks for sharing. Your link does not work. I am abandoning the Eagle Aspen rotor path and pursuing the Xantech (or equivalent) method that Scott described.

Not sure what link you are talking about but here is a link to my screen thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1229614/my-vertical-masking-master-plan

I wouldn't mind another option to the rotor. But I still want presets. Reason being when I am done I hope to have it automated to a point where the screen changes size by itself when the movie starts with out haviing to push a botton. Also mine is a little different in that I close my masking all the way to cover the screen when not in use, this greatly complites the design also. So I need a preset for closed and open. Another words when I hit the power off on my Harmony it calls up a preset that closes the screen all the way.


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post #805 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

Aren't there relays available that will allow independent control of two switches?
And this figure at Xantech's website shows the CC12 connected to the 'Up/Down' terminals of the device to be controlled. What does the 'Momentary' terminal do?
Also, Figure 5 of the manual (available at http://www.xantech.com/manuals/CC12.pdf) describes how the Momentary (MMT) command works for the CC12. Could that offer a solution?
Also, how did you fasten the masking to the roller bars?
Yes, there are relays that allow independent control of two switches, but the Xantech is the only one I have found that is IR controlled.
The "momentary" command switches the relay to the "NO" (normally open) terminal only for as long as you hold down the button on the remote.
I attached the masking to the roller bars with Gorilla Tape. Works great and is a simple solution.
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post #806 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I decided to go ahead and hook everything up using the Xantech relays. Here are some pictures.

This is the AC adapter and Xantech CC12 relays attached to a piece of plywood and wired up...



Close Limit Switch


Open Limit Switch


Attached to Motor







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post #807 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a video. In this video I'm using the Xantech remote. One button opens the side masks and one button closes the masks. Of course I will "learn" these buttons to my Harmony Univeral Remote so I don't have to use the Xantech remote.
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post #808 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopar_Mudder View Post

Not sure what link you are talking about but here is a link to my screen thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1229614/my-vertical-masking-master-plan

When you wrote in your previous post, "the ones I have now you can here click.", I thought that there was a link that one had to click to. I believe that meant to write 'hear' - that changes the meaning. Its clear now. No worries.


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post #809 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DIYHomeTheater View Post

When you wrote in your previous post, "the ones I have now you can here click.", I thought that there was a link that one had to click to. I believe that meant to write 'hear' - that changes the meaning. Its clear now. No worries.
In my video above, you can hear the xantech relays click and you can hear the motor as well. It isn't obnoxious though.
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post #810 of 836 Old 12-31-2012, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Yes, there are relays that allow independent control of two switches, but the Xantech is the only one I have found that is IR controlled.
The "momentary" command switches the relay to the "NO" (normally open) terminal only for as long as you hold down the button on the remote.
I attached the masking to the roller bars with Gorilla Tape. Works great and is a simple solution.

Here is a link to IR controllobale relay switches in multiple configurations (UK site): http://www.quasarelectronics.co.uk/relay-boards.htm#Infrared-Activated-Relay-Boards


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