4-Way Acoustically Transparent Masking - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 837 Old 01-04-2008, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGTX View Post

I just ran across an option for motorizing masks on another thread here, from poster Gary Murrell at the link below:
...
He used a drapery motor from SmartHome that can be RF controlled. Nit sure, your drapes my be too heavy for this motor work with, but take alook & see what you think:
...

Thanks. I have considered that motor but I have some of the same concerns as Andy. Also, it does not appear to be able to move in either direction from a given stopping point. When you reapply power, it continues on in the same direction until it reaches the end and then stops. When you reapply power, it then reverses in the opposite direction.

Also, I would like to find something with IR control rather than only RA control. I would like to be able to program the movement of the masking into a standard universal remote.
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post #62 of 837 Old 01-04-2008, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy238 View Post

So here are some sketches of my implementation of Scott's design. Keep in mind I'm only concerned with side masking. The horizontal masking will be fixed and not adjustable.

What do ya think?

Andy,

Very impressive drawings! Here are a couple of things to consider.

First, the counter weight idea is a very good idea and will actually resolve a number of issues I had with keeping the right amount of tension on the masking material. However, it will require the use of a motor with enough torque to act as a break so that the counter weight doesn't pull the masking closed even after the motor stops.

Second, I found that is was very important to have the rollers spin extremely easily in order for the whole system to work smoothly. My masking glides back and forth with very light finger pressure. All of the off-the-shelf roller shades that I found were not smooth enough and had too much play. This might be a non-issue with the counter-weight design that you have. If so, your design would be much easier to implement.
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post #63 of 837 Old 01-04-2008, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benwillcox View Post

Hi Scott,
For those talking of motorizing the masking system, the system that I designed uses automation to move the masking to ANY aspect ratio desired - fortunately, this part of my project was the part that actually worked properly!

In a nutshell, you pass the desired aspect ratio to the system as an integer between 1 and 2350 (or whatever your max aspect ratio is), and using an optical encoder it will move the masking to the correct point.

I have documented it here: http://www.willcoxonline.com/masking/ which I think would also work using your mechanism, but with a few mechanical modifications of course.

Ben,
Wow! I studied your web site and am very impressed with you electronic design abilities. I'm afraid though that most of it is beyond my level of knowledge. I'm having a hard time even understanding what all the symbols mean on your schematic, let alone understanding how to build it . I've done a little bit of reading on motor controllers but I always get stumped on the encoders and the programming.

Do you have to re-program the controller if you lose power? Can you move your masking as part of a macro in a universal remote or do you alway have to be hooked up to a PC?

This is my wish-list of what I would like a motorization system to do:

1) It should be able to move both the horizontal and the vertical masking by remote IR and/or RF control. The IR should be learnable so that it can be controlled by a universal remote like the Harmony or Pronto series.

2) It should move both the horizontal masking and the vertical masking to a minimum of 5 pre-determined set points for various aspect ratios (4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 2.40:1). It should be extremely accurate and repeatable in its positioning. In addition I would like to be able to move the masking manually with the remote to any other aspect ratio as needed.

3) The masking should move from its current position directly to the preset memory position with the touch of one button on the remote. In other words, it should not have to reset itself by returning to the full open or full closed position prior to going to the desired preset position. Also, it would be nice if the controller had a speed control process so that it would quickly move to the desired position and then slow down for the last couple of inches.

4) It should have stop limits for the fully closed and open limits of the masking system.

5) I would also like a wall switch that functions similarly to the remote so that I can move the masking even if I can't find the remote.

6) The preset stopping positions should be easy to set. For example, I would like to be able to manually move the masking to the desired position and then press a set key on the remote followed by the desired Preset Key on the remote to set that desired position.

7) The system should not lose its memory in the event of a power failure.

It seems that all of this should be very do-able for someone who has enough electronic design knowledge and knows where to buy all the parts.

One of my biggest requirement is that they system has to be easy to use. That is probably why I am not overly dissatisfied with my manual setup. Even my wife can set the masking now!

Thanks for posting about your system. It certainly lets me know it is all possible. I'm very impressed!

- Scott
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post #64 of 837 Old 01-05-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ0007 View Post

Ben,

Do you have to re-program the controller if you lose power? Can you move your masking as part of a macro in a universal remote or do you alway have to be hooked up to a PC?

Hi Scott, no, nothing has to be reset if the power is lost. I don't have a direct interface to an IR remote control, that would have to be built as an additional interface to make it stand-alone, although in theory I could do that via the HTPC.

However, the way it's designed to work is that you don't actually need a remote control to set the ratio - the video player running on the HTPC (VLC player) automatically detects the aspect ratio of the movie, and sends that data to the masking system. This means that everything is fully automatic, you just play the movie, and whatever the aspect ratio, the masking moves to the correct place!
It doesn't get much more easy to use than that!

Cheers,
Ben
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post #65 of 837 Old 01-06-2008, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benwillcox View Post

This means that everything is fully automatic, you just play the movie, and whatever the aspect ratio, the masking moves to the correct place!
It doesn't get much more easy to use than that!

Very cool!
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post #66 of 837 Old 01-07-2008, 06:39 AM
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Ben, that is a nice system. I agree with Scott though... most if the info on the website was over my head too. And I even know what the symbols mean! But what if you aren't using an HTPC? I have one but I"m still not sure if I am going to go that route for my final setup.

For me, I"m not looking to go THAT diy on the motor control system. I'd rather just attach a IR contollable motor, set the stops, and be done. Don from HTIQ is working on providing just his motor control system which is pretty robust as far as what we're looking for and what Scott outlined.

So Scott, you think the aluminum pipe is the way to go. There is a Metal Supermarket about an hour or so away from me. I'll have to call them and see what is available. Good catch on the torque and motor break issue. I hadn't thought of that. Hopefully Don's motor will work. If not do you suppose a second motor could do it? Maybe attached to the opposite roller?

I once read about someone using a linear actuator. I wonder if that could be useful somehow...

Andy
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post #67 of 837 Old 01-07-2008, 11:51 AM
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I was looking at the linear actuators also but you still need a controller system and I do not think you can get accurate stops out of them accept for full open and full closed. Looks like Dons setup is the way to go.

Nate

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10,000 Watts, custom built speakers, 10' CIH screen = Holy Crap
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post #68 of 837 Old 01-08-2008, 12:26 PM
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Ran across this company, Leg Motorized Systems, which builds motorized drapery systems. Did not see any pricing
given, would imagine they are expensive. They also build an add-on cord pulling motor, looks like it only has two stops as well. Would any of their products be of help to guy guys for powered masking ?

http://legmotorizedsystems.com/
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post #69 of 837 Old 01-08-2008, 03:48 PM
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Here is another possible choice for roller shade motors. Saw these Somfy roller shade motors on AV Outlet's web site. The page in the link below shows their in tube roller motors that are battery or tranformer powered. You can buy just the motor or any & all other pieces: brackets, roller tubes (Rollease brand).
From what I read, they have a memory that can hold three setings; FulluUp, Full down & one other specified postion (not sure if these are user setable or dealer does it). Maybe this would help provide (full open for 2.35, full closed for 4:3 & the other position for 16:9). Many are IR controlable & some you can add RF.
I can see them working in the horz position, but how well will any roller shade mech (manual or motorized) work, standing on it's end for vertical masking ?

Take a look & see what you think ?

http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_496.html


John
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post #70 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 07:00 AM
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Awesome finds, John! Somfy would be the way to go but their IR control is not learnable to other remotes unless you get a $200 module. That would be a deal breaker for me anyway. I just started looking on the av-outlet site. Lots of stuff, more to see...

I'll also fire off for a quote on the LEG motors and see what just the motor is going for. I'll post any replies I get.

Cheers,
Andy
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post #71 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 11:12 AM
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Wow that looks to be perfect get it in the end of Scott's tube and we have motorization. They have an RS232 option perfect for setting exactly what you want.

Nate

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post #72 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGTX View Post

I can see them working in the horz position, but how well will any roller shade mech (manual or motorized) work, standing on it's end for vertical masking ?

Thanks for posting the link, these motors look ideal for this application. It looks like it should be fairly straightforward to fit these using the same type of mechanism that Scott has used for his masking.
I also found this link http://www.skycoshade.com/skylight.html which shows this type of motor in use for blinds where the material needs to be kept in tension, such as side masking.

I still think that they would need a different type of control system to cope with more than the three fixed position it appears they support, although that may be enough for some.

Cheers,
Ben
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post #73 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 06:19 PM
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Well, av-outlet has an IR controller called "AVUA-IRRTS Universal Automation Interface" that looks like it will do 5 positions. That's cool. But the price is over $200. That's just the IR interface too. Not cool. Add a motor and you're well over $300. Don's (htiq) motor only package is a less than that (early estimate anyway) and is more precise.

Hey Don, is it soup yet!

So why are these things so pricey anyways?
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post #74 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Great finds guys. I've looked at the somfy motors but they seem a bit pricey and lack some of the flexibility that I think I would want for the masking application. I agree with Andy that Don's (HTIQ) setup would be great if he decides to sell a motor only package and it is in the right price range.
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post #75 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 09:52 PM
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Ben, thanks for the neat "skycoshade" site, wish they gave more detail on their products. Look forward to hearing what you find out from either company.

Here is Somfy home page, interesting animations, on their roller shade prodcuts:

http://www.somfy.com/au/index.cfm?pa...language=en-au
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post #76 of 837 Old 01-09-2008, 10:29 PM
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Ran across this link (news from 11-14-07) about Somfy having a next gen "ILT" motor coming out. From what I read the motor has built in intelligence, each mtr has a unique address. The mtrs on the network communnicate via a protocol allowing intergration w/ 3rd party automation sys capable of dry contact, RF, IR, RS-232 or RS-422. See link below:

http://hiddenwires.co.uk/resourcesne...071114-03.html

Guess for a motor to stop in the right place (putting the masks where we want it) means that mtr has to be smart
& know exactly where it is & where it is going & that takes a control system of some kind to make it happen. Starting to sound expensive...
Hey Don @ HTIQ, how's your system coming along ?

John
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post #77 of 837 Old 01-10-2008, 05:44 AM
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post #78 of 837 Old 01-10-2008, 07:08 AM
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Mmmm. Interesting....
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post #79 of 837 Old 01-11-2008, 11:59 PM
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What would make for a good motor to use on masking systems ? I ran across the web site below & they had many types. They have all sorts of hobby & robitics stuff on their site. www.alltronics.com

Found one 12VDC Pittman type motor w/solenoid (part# 24M015) with encoder attached for $20.
There was a 24VDC Coleman gearmotor for $20 (# FYQF63600 30-5).
An AC gearmotor w/brake (# 23M030), 147 RPM,
Then there was a motor with a solenoid activated brake that releases upon power up for $20
A US Digital optical encoder (Part# E2-1016-250-G) 1016 pulses per revolutionwith 1/4" shaft. Does anthing sound useful here ?
Figured a slow RPM was useful & maybe a controller would need an optical sensor to get feedback from the motor.

John
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post #80 of 837 Old 01-12-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDGTX View Post

What would make for a good motor to use on masking systems ? I ran across the web site below & they had many types. They have all sorts of hobby & robitics stuff on their site. www.alltronics.com

Hi John,

The criteria I would look for in a motor are that it needs to be geared, low voltage DC to allow easy solid-state switching (i.e. no relays) and speed control if desired, an encoder to give feedback for precise positioning, and quiet operation. It may or may not need an electro-magnetic brake, depending on the intertia of the rotor and gearbox of the particular motor.

Cheers,
Ben
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post #81 of 837 Old 01-12-2008, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy238 View Post

Hey Don, is it soup yet!

Not soup just quite yet, but it's on the burner. I want to roll out the IR/RS232 combo, as well as the dual - motor controller. These controllers have been "rock-solid" for about 2 years now. The encoder makes it so you can have presets (up to 10).

These will be ready at the end of January.

Don
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post #82 of 837 Old 01-15-2008, 08:53 AM
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I noticed in the regular screen section a recent post by Danny Marvomatis regarding his new Marvomatic controller (used to control a Stewart masking system). See the link below:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=975908

What do you guys think ? Wonder if it can by used or adapted to work with 4-way masking (buy a second board for vertical masks)? It has three presets; 1.85, 2.35 & 2.40, plus manual toggle for top & bottom masks. No pricing shown.

HTIQ's controller has 10 presets, I believe.
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post #83 of 837 Old 01-15-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camarillo_cinema View Post

Not soup just quite yet, but it's on the burner. I want to roll out the IR/RS232 combo, as well as the dual - motor controller. These controllers have been "rock-solid" for about 2 years now. The encoder makes it so you can have presets (up to 10).

These will be ready at the end of January.

Don


Hi Don, when you say dual motor controller, are you meaning that one controller will control a seperate motor for Horz masks & a seperate motor for the Vert masks ?

Would these need to be a specific type motor or even a certain model motor to work properly & accurately with your controller ?

Do you have a price for this dual controller at this point ?

Thanks !
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post #84 of 837 Old 01-15-2008, 10:21 AM
 
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John-
I have a dual-motor controller. The 4-way masking can be done with 2 motors. You will need 12VDC gearmotors rated at about 175 oz-inches.

Don
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post #85 of 837 Old 01-15-2008, 03:53 PM
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Don,
Thanks so much for the info.
Good luck with all your many projects that you have going on. You are a busy man!

John
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post #86 of 837 Old 01-16-2008, 08:44 AM
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Thanks Scott for a great thread....you just gave me another project to do this winter..... I just replaced my 16X9 screen with a CIH by Carada and have been considering the side masking idea then I ran into this thread...

Okay to pm you and throw some idea's your way on just a side masking system?

tia

Keith
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post #87 of 837 Old 01-16-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie View Post

Thanks Scott for a great thread....you just gave me another project to do this winter..... I just replaced my 16X9 screen with a CIH by Carada and have been considering the side masking idea then I ran into this thread...

Okay to pm you and throw some idea's your way on just a side masking system?

tia

Keith


Keith;
If possible, I would appreciate if you could keep your idea exchange public, i.e. by adding to this thread or if needed by creating a new one. One the main reasons for having this forum is to provide a platform for others to learn as well....
Having said this (selfish me), I would be very interested in your thoughts on how to make a masking system with my Carada Criterion CIH setup... The problem I am facing right now is to get the masking panel close enough to the screen material (< 1/2") so it does not cast a shadow. Any pointers/ideas?
____
Axel

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post #88 of 837 Old 01-16-2008, 10:56 AM
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Axel,

Will do that, and you are correct this is a public forum and hopefully share some idea's and maybe spark an idea from other members. Working on the same problem you are having trying to get the masking material close enough to not cast a shadow...

Keith
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post #89 of 837 Old 01-16-2008, 11:09 AM
 
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Most of the commercial screen companies mount the screen material on the back side of the frame. Since the frame has a dimension, that means that any masking of the screen places the masks some distance away from the screen material itself.

From my experience, this doesn't pose a problem, so long as your masks are not too far from the screen. Since your projector blasts light straight on, the "shadows" will be behind the masks.

Don
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post #90 of 837 Old 01-16-2008, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camarillo_cinema View Post

Most of the commercial screen companies mount the screen material on the back side of the frame. Since the frame has a dimension, that means that any masking of the screen places the masks some distance away from the screen material itself.

From my experience, this doesn't pose a problem, so long as your masks are not too far from the screen. Since your projector blasts light straight on, the "shadows" will be behind the masks.

Don

Yep, that's it Don!
In my case with the Carada Criterion this distance is approx. 1.5" and the masks unfortunately cast a noticeable shadow from the first row (primary seating location - approx 12 ft away from screen). Any good ideas for me?
____
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