Onkyo DV-SP506 1080p w/DSD & 480i via HDMI - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 88 Old 10-09-2008, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a new player I found at http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/...us_leaflet.pdf. Based on its written specs, I don't think it's as good as the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV. I am a little turned away from the 506's 50KHz cutoff for SACD playback. Yet Onkyo claims it uses the Burr Brown PCM1796, like in the 58. Also, this is available for preorder in the US at Amazon. I thought you guys might be interested in reading about this because of its HDMI 1.2A and Burr Brown PCM1796 DACs. It would be cool if Onkyo replaces their old DV-CP802 with a DV-CP806 universal six-disc changer version of this.
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post #2 of 88 Old 10-09-2008, 07:23 AM
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I'm a big fan on Onkyo products, and it's nice to finally see more DVD manufacturers releasing players than can be utilized as pure DVD transports. OPPO's 980H can be had for $130 less though, and if I hadn't just recently purchased one, I'd definitely be very interested in the SP506. Assuming Onkyo's video implementation is good, both players would likely provide a very similar level of performance when used as a universal transport.

The inclusion of the Burr-Brown DAC's is an advantage over the 980H, on paper anyway. Assuming Onkyo has done the diligence of a good analog audio path (and there really isn't any reason to assume they haven't) this looks to be one excellent little player.

I agree that a 6-disc version would be sweet! My first DVD player was Onkyo's original 6-disc machine and I've still got a soft spot for their carousel players...

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post #3 of 88 Old 10-15-2008, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I could not find a full online manual for the 506. However, after reading the manuals to the 504 and 706, I notice that if you use either composite, component, or s video output, the only picture manipulation features include switchable black level and adjustable sharpness and brightness. There doesn't seem to be adjustments for contrast, tint, color level, and gamma. The Pioneer Elite DV-58AV has all of the above, except switchable black level, but it is easy to work around that.
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post #4 of 88 Old 10-17-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I could not find a full online manual for the 506. However, after reading the manuals to the 504 and 706, I notice that if you use either composite, component, or s video output, the only picture manipulation features include switchable black level and adjustable sharpness and brightness. There doesn't seem to be adjustments for contrast, tint, color level, and gamma. The Pioneer Elite DV-58AV has all of the above, except switchable black level, but it is easy to work around that.

Found it

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/dl/1186911/M...V-SP506_En.pdf

Onkyo always quotes much worse S/N and dynamic range numbers than it competitors do, I am not sure if they are just more honest or they really are worse.
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post #5 of 88 Old 10-17-2008, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Found it

http://www.eu.onkyo.com/dl/1186911/M...V-SP506_En.pdf

Onkyo always quotes much worse S/N and dynamic range numbers than it competitors do, I am not sure if they are just more honest or they really are worse.

After reading it, my assumption was correct! Yes. The S/N and dynamic range numbers have me turned off from this machine a little bit as well. Are you ready for this? I thought the 406 would be identical to the Pioneer DV-410 being that the Onkyo 405 was similar to the Pioneer DV-400. How wrong I was! It only features switchable black level for video! From what PDFs I've read from Onkyo, I am aware of this company's potential. Who knows! Maybe these players would make perfect HDMI transports!
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post #6 of 88 Old 10-18-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

After reading it, my assumption was correct! Yes. The S/N and dynamic range numbers have me turned off from this machine a little bit as well. Are you ready for this? I thought the 406 would be identical to the Pioneer DV-410 being that the Onkyo 405 was similar to the Pioneer DV-400. How wrong I was! It only features switchable black level for video! From what PDFs I've read from Onkyo, I am aware of this company's potential. Who knows! Maybe these players would make perfect HDMI transports!

This unit will cry out for a review and comparison to the DV-58av with some audio test equipment, unfortunately none of the AV magazines show any interest in testing DVD players any more.

I bought a DVD-S1800 Yamaha with a silly $449 retail price on a closeout sale for $98 (no DSD or DSD/PCM output either) it is my stop gap until we start seeing Blu-ray players with DSD output, or at least good DSD/LPCM output, Oppo has one coming along, the Yamaha has the mediocre PCM-1791 chips.

The video is as good as it gets for DVD, the audio is acceptable for a few months. My wife's CD player broke a few weeks ago after 15 years of use, so she got my Pioneer Elite DV-47ai (audibly better than this unit for most of the audible range, but nothing dramatic except for the slightly muted treble on the Yamaha offset somewhat by better bass management for the Yamaha). Correction, the treble wasn't muted, my wife vacuumed around the speakers and toed them out a bit.

This buys me some time until the market starts offering a better selection of stuff with DSD output over HDMI.
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post #7 of 88 Old 10-19-2008, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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This unit will cry out for a review and comparison to the DV-58av with some audio test equipment, unfortunately none of the AV magazines show any interest in testing DVD players any more.

I bought a DVD-S1800 Yamaha with a silly $449 retail price on a closeout sale for $98 (no DSD or DSD/PCM output either) it is my stop gap until we start seeing Blu-ray players with DSD output, or at least good DSD/LPCM output, Oppo has one coming along, the Yamaha has the mediocre PCM-1791 chips.

The video is as good as it gets for DVD, the audio is acceptable for a few months. My wife's CD player broke a few weeks ago after 15 years of use, so she got my Pioneer Elite DV-47ai (audibly better than this unit for most of the audible range, but nothing dramatic except for the slightly muted treble on the Yamaha offset somewhat by better bass management for the Yamaha). Correction, the treble wasn't muted, my wife vacuumed around the speakers and toed them out a bit.

This buys me some time until the market starts offering a better selection of stuff with DSD output over HDMI.

I think you should have gotten the 58 because for less than half the cost of the Denon DVD3930CI, you get the Burr Brown PCM1796 DACs and the additions of DSD over HDMI and WMV playback. And if you use your receiver's or TV's deinterlacing/upscaling, you don't really need the video processing in the 3930. If you have trouble with darker scenes, the 58's black level is the equivalent of setting switchable black level to the on or enhanced position. One thing that surprises me about Yamaha is their doublestandard. How come their acoustic and electronic pianos are among the best, yet their DVD players nearly stink? You'd think Yamaha would go the same lengths for their home consumer DVD players as they've gone for their instruments, PA hardware, and home theater receivers and speakers.
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post #8 of 88 Old 10-19-2008, 10:08 AM
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I think you should have gotten the 58 because for less than half the cost of the Denon DVD3930CI, you get the Burr Brown PCM1796 DACs and the additions of DSD over HDMI and WMV playback. And if you use your receiver's or TV's deinterlacing/upscaling, you don't really need the video processing in the 3930. If you have trouble with darker scenes, the 58's black level is the equivalent of setting switchable black level to the on or enhanced position. One thing that surprises me about Yamaha is their doublestandard. How come their acoustic and electronic pianos are among the best, yet their DVD players nearly stink? You'd think Yamaha would go the same lengths for their home consumer DVD players as they've gone for their instruments, PA hardware, and home theater receivers and speakers.

Spousal unit wouldn't swing for the 58 when the 1800 was 1/4 the price, I kinda agreed after testing it out for a while against my 47ai. The 1800 has all the features the 58 has except for that all important DSD output over HDMI, better bass management and probably slightly less clear sound (very slight, you would probably have to A/B compare them to tell them apart).

My DV-47ai has essentially the same audio quality as the 58 and I couldn't distinguish the Yamaha from the 47 when they were set up on my wifes NAD integrated amp in stereo mode over quite good HD-580 headphones from Sennheiser, that is a tough test. I am assuming the 58 is slightly better than my old 47ai which is essentially similar to the 59 and 79avi models, especially the audio section.

As soon as someone comes out with a good Blu-ray player that supports SACD well for under $1k I will spring for that. For the $98 I spent I can afford to wait. At that time I will have to get a new HDTV as well because Blu-ray will be wasted on a 30" LCD from 10' away. For now I refuse to buy a Blu-ray player until SACD and DSD over HDMI is supported. I am voting with my wallet.
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post #9 of 88 Old 10-19-2008, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Spousal unit wouldn't swing for the 58 when the 1800 was 1/4 the price, I kinda agreed after testing it out for a while against my 47ai. The 1800 has all the features the 58 has except for that all important DSD output over HDMI, better bass management and probably slightly less clear sound (very slight, you would probably have to A/B compare them to tell them apart).

My DV-47ai has essentially the same audio quality as the 58 and I couldn't distinguish the Yamaha from the 47 when they were set up on my wifes NAD integrated amp in stereo mode over quite good HD-580 headphones from Sennheiser, that is a tough test. I am assuming the 58 is slightly better than my old 47ai which is essentially similar to the 59 and 79avi models, especially the audio section.

As soon as someone comes out with a good Blu-ray player that supports SACD well for under $1k I will spring for that. For the $98 I spent I can afford to wait. At that time I will have to get a new HDTV as well because Blu-ray will be wasted on a 30" LCD from 10' away. For now I refuse to buy a Blu-ray player until SACD and DSD over HDMI is supported. I am voting with my wallet.

You did get an amazing deal on the 1800. I just know how impressed you were with the 58 at the other thread and am sorry you didn't get one. Anyway, at least the 1800 has better DACs than Yamaha's Cirrus Logic changers, the DVD-C750 and the DVD-C961. I thought the 1800 uses the 1796 DACs. How did you know it uses the 1791? Did you pop the cover off it? If so, did you happen to notice if it uses the MediaTek MT-1389 as an MPEG decoder?
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You did get an amazing deal on the 1800. I just know how impressed you were with the 58 at the other thread and am sorry you didn't get one. Anyway, at least the 1800 has better DACs than Yamaha's Cirrus Logic changers, the DVD-C750 and the DVD-C961. I thought the 1800 uses the 1796 DACs. How did you know it uses the 1791? Did you pop the cover off it? If so, did you happen to notice if it uses the MediaTek MT-1389 as an MPEG decoder?

UK site specifies the dac, 1791, I can pop the cover and check the decoder. The output section matters more than the dac once you get to where the 1791 is, the 2700 has the Cirrus Logic CS4398. Couldn't find the MPEG decoder, but it does use a Zoran chip for audio codecs and it does have 4 1791s (those things are really tiny), I suspect the front left and right channels use one stereo dac each in mono mode instead of stereo for a 3db higher S/N ratio. I suspect I need to take out the transport to see the video chips, because I couldn't find them in the rest of the cabinet, the output stuff looks nice for the price.
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post #11 of 88 Old 10-20-2008, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

s

UK site specifies the dac, 1791, I can pop the cover and check the decoder. The output section matters more than the dac once you get to where the 1791 is, the 2700 has the Cirrus Logic CS4398. Couldn't find the MPEG decoder, but it does use a Zoran chip for audio codecs and it does have 4 1791s (those things are really tiny), I suspect the front left and right channels use one stereo dac each in mono mode instead of stereo for a 3db higher S/N ratio. I suspect I need to take out the transport to see the video chips, because I couldn't find them in the rest of the cabinet, the output stuff looks nice for the price.

Nothing personal. This post is not meant to offend those who purchased the 1800 or 2700. I just would like to express my shock at the choice of internals highly regarded manufacturors would even consider switching to. It seems as though Yamaha is going down hill as far as consumer DVD players are concerned. Zoran? Cirrus Logic? For $450 and above? Not with MY wallet! You'd think that Yamaha would buy high-end Pioneer designs such as the 58 which use the MediaTek MT-1389 and the Burr Brown PCM1796.
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post #12 of 88 Old 10-20-2008, 07:42 AM
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Nothing personal. This post is not meant to offend those who purchased the 1800 or 2700. I just would like to express my shock at the choice of internals highly regarded manufacturors would even consider switching to. It seems as though Yamaha is going down hill as far as consumer DVD players are concerned. Zoran? Cirrus Logic? For $450 and above? Not with MY wallet! You'd think that Yamaha would buy high-end Pioneer designs such as the 58 which use the MediaTek MT-1389 and the Burr Brown PCM1796.


With my LCD I would never see the difference on the video and for the price it works great. Video looks just about perfect for scaling and deinterlacing, the cases where it doesn't are really edge conditions that are difficult to see in most programming, especially movies.

The Cirrus Logic chip is on the 2700, it is a good chip, better than the 1791, worse than the 1796. Use it in mono mode (both DAC channels are used in mono mode for a higher signal to noise but twice the number of DACs per channel) for the front left and right channels and it will beat the 1796 for those channels used in stereo mode (one DAC channel to one output channel), in other words it is so close that the real issue becomes the output section not the DAC, that looks good on the 1800 and really nice indeed on the 2700 (too bad that wasn't going for $98).

More importantly this new player isn't even out yet and just like every other Onkyo product it is already steeply discounted. If the specs are just very conservative on the 506 it may be a very good deal indeed, HDMI 1.2a with DSD output and the 1796 dacs, the output section is the real issue. The video is probably competitive if not stellar (Pioneer's products are rarely stellar for video either, the Oppo 980h beats it with the same MediaTek chip).
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post #13 of 88 Old 10-21-2008, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

If the specs are just very conservative on the 506 it may be a very good deal indeed, HDMI 1.2a with DSD output and the 1796 dacs, the output section is the real issue. The video is probably competitive if not stellar (Pioneer's products are rarely stellar for video either, the Oppo 980h beats it with the same MediaTek chip).

Why care about the DAC's if ultimately you want DSD over HDMI?

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post #14 of 88 Old 10-21-2008, 09:58 AM
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Bridge, no HDMI receiver yet.

Also, I care more about the output section than the DACs, it will have a bigger impact.
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post #15 of 88 Old 10-24-2008, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like this player will be sold in the US afterall. Check out http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=DVD&p=i.
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post #16 of 88 Old 10-24-2008, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

It looks like this player will be sold in the US afterall. Check out http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...&class=DVD&p=i.


I'd still love to know why the S/N and dynamic range specs are so mediocre, and also how good is the video.
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post #17 of 88 Old 10-26-2008, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I just read the manual to the US model found at http://63.148.251.135/redirect_servi...V-SP506_En.pdf. Am I reading this wrong, or is it true that when converting DSD to PCM, this new Onkyo can actually output two-channel SACD at 176.4KHz and multi-channel SACD at 96KHz, via HDMI, Optical, and Coaxial digital outputs? If so, then because of the high sampling rate PCM output, this could blow Pioneer and Oppo out of the water as far as digital transports are concerned. Did I really read that manual correctly? It sounds too good to be true.
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post #18 of 88 Old 10-26-2008, 10:15 PM
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With an MSRP of $349 that is about ideal as the higher end bluray players start at about $599.
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post #19 of 88 Old 10-29-2008, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I just read the manual to the US model found at http://63.148.251.135/redirect_servi...V-SP506_En.pdf. Am I reading this wrong, or is it true that when converting DSD to PCM, this new Onkyo can actually output two-channel SACD at 176.4KHz and multi-channel SACD at 96KHz, via HDMI, Optical, and Coaxial digital outputs? If so, then because of the high sampling rate PCM output, this could blow Pioneer and Oppo out of the water as far as digital transports are concerned. Did I really read that manual correctly? It sounds too good to be true.

Nope, I saw that too, that is the sampling rate used when bass management within the player is used.
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post #20 of 88 Old 10-29-2008, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Nope, I saw that too, that is the sampling rate used when bass management within the player is used.

When this player converts DSD to PCM, are you saying that its sampling frequency via HDMI is not really 176.4 KHz for stereo or 96 KHz for 5.1? Unlike other players that convert DSD to PCM, will SACD playback be possible with this player via the coaxial and digital outs? The manual does not say that DSD as PCM can't be output via those digital outputs.
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post #21 of 88 Old 10-30-2008, 05:52 AM
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When this player converts DSD to PCM, are you saying that its sampling frequency via HDMI is not really 176.4 KHz for stereo or 96 KHz for 5.1? Unlike other players that convert DSD to PCM, will SACD playback be possible with this player via the coaxial and digital outs? The manual does not say that DSD as PCM can't be output via those digital outputs.

No, it looks good to go, and the analog outputs are done well.
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post #22 of 88 Old 10-30-2008, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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No, it looks good to go, and the analog outputs are done well.

If the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV is really discontinued, for now, do you think this new Onkyo DV-SP506 could be its worthy successor?
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post #23 of 88 Old 10-30-2008, 08:03 AM
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If the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV is really discontinued, for now, do you think this new Onkyo DV-SP506 could be its worthy successor?

Maybe we can convince Kal Rubinson to test the 58 against it. Some companies put in really optimistic specifications (Yamaha) others are very conservative so I tend to look at the chip set and the output section along with the quality of the transport. It would be nice to pop the top off of this new one and look at it.
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post #24 of 88 Old 11-02-2008, 05:16 AM
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Apparently the Onkyo dv-sp502 was the same player under the covers as the DV-588a from Pioneer. Pioneer quoted a S/N of 115 db versus 106 and a dynamic range of 101 db versus 96. The Onkyo weighed 3 lbs. more, some of which was probably the output section yet the spec is worse. It seems like Onkyo's figures are far more conservative than Pioneer's.

Here is the review of the 502 with the quote about the 588a. Here is another review of the 502.

I wonder if this player uses the 58s electronics without the same output section (less weight this time) given the identical audio DACs.
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post #25 of 88 Old 11-02-2008, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I looked at the manual for the Onkyo DV-SP405. It's the same thing as the Pioneer DV-400V. Yet when I looked at the manual for the Onkyo DV-SP406, it was not the same thing as the Pioneer DV-410V. I never compared the manuals for the 502 and 588. However, I have compared the manuals for the 504 and 696, as well as the manuals for the 506, 48, 49, 58, 600, and 610. The Onkyo and Pioneer have different interfaces. I don't know if the firmware would be interchangeable or not. I guess you'd have to go to Initial settings, highlight Options, and press Display to find out.
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post #26 of 88 Old 11-02-2008, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I looked at the manual for the Onkyo DV-SP405. It's the same thing as the Pioneer DV-400V. Yet when I looked at the manual for the Onkyo DV-SP406, it was not the same thing as the Pioneer DV-410V. I never compared the manuals for the 502 and 588. However, I have compared the manuals for the 504 and 696, as well as the manuals for the 506, 48, 49, 58, 600, and 610. The Onkyo and Pioneer have different interfaces. I don't know if the firmware would be interchangeable or not. I guess you'd have to go to Initial settings, highlight Options, and press Display to find out.


I doubt the firmware would match up, just the board and stuff on it. The transport, output section etc. would all be different. Also, don't read too much into the fact that one player was made by Pioneer, their HD-DVD player was a thinly disguised Toshiba.
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post #27 of 88 Old 11-06-2008, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The Onkyo DV-SP506 uses the Burr Brown PCM1796. It seems to be one of the best digital transports. To top everything else off, Amazon has it for $245! I don't think it will be quite as good as the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV, but if you absolutely can't find it and/or aford it, this might be a nice alternative. It definitely beats the Oppo DV-980H and Pioneer Elite DV-48AV and DV-49AV.
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post #28 of 88 Old 11-07-2008, 07:20 AM
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According to the manual it remembers where you left off for the last 8 DVDs, that is a nice feature I always had on the PC but never on the DVD player.
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post #29 of 88 Old 11-07-2008, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

According to the manual it remembers where you left off for the last 8 DVDs, that is a nice feature I always had on the PC but never on the DVD player.

I think this is a good time for me to reveal a secret I never revealed at these forums because I thought it might lower my credibility as far as certain opinions on certain issues are concerned. I read Braille and use screen reading software, as well as screen magnification equipment. As far as the equipment we discuss here, when I can, I touch my forehead against the screen to navigate through setup menus and configure all the options. For whatever I can't make out, while I operate the remote, I ask a friend or family member to look at the TV screen for me and tell me what is highlighted, has a circle in it, etc. Some DVD player's menus are easier to read than others. Full disc repeat is a nice feature during DVD playback so I can play a DVD all the way through without going back to its menus. Unfortunately, not all DVD players are capable of the disc repeat function during DVD playback, nor have bookmark capability. However, as difficult as my situation may be, if it means superior audio/video performance, believe it or not, I would sacrifice the extra functionality features. Besides, using DVD Shrink and ImgBurn, I made menuless copies of my most-played DVDs with the subtitles hidden and the audio stream set to my preference so that I can use them like CDs anyway. All that hard work has given my DV-58AV the best of performance AND functionality, and I couldn't be happier! Well, you just learned something interesting about one of your fairly new members.
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post #30 of 88 Old 11-07-2008, 08:36 AM
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I think this is a good time for me to reveal a secret I never revealed at these forums because I thought it might lower my credibility as far as certain opinions on certain issues are concerned. I read Braille and use screen reading software, as well as screen magnification equipment. As far as the equipment we discuss here, when I can, I touch my forehead against the screen to navigate through setup menus and configure all the options. For whatever I can't make out, while I operate the remote, I ask a friend or family member to look at the TV screen for me and tell me what is highlighted, has a circle in it, etc. Some DVD player's menus are easier to read than others. Full disc repeat is a nice feature during DVD playback so I can play a DVD all the way through without going back to its menus. Unfortunately, not all DVD players are capable of the disc repeat function during DVD playback, nor have bookmark capability. However, as difficult as my situation may be, if it means superior audio/video performance, believe it or not, I would sacrifice the extra functionality features. Besides, using DVD Shrink and ImgBurn, I made menuless copies of my most-played DVDs with the subtitles hidden and the audio stream set to my preference so that I can use them like CDs anyway. All that hard work has given my DV-58AV the best of performance AND functionality, and I couldn't be happier! Well, you just learned something interesting about one of your fairly new members.

My eyesight isn't the best, but it is functional and correctable for the most part (that is why I really don't go crazy over picture quality). But my main problem is just some color blindness.

My father in law has advanced macular degeneration, he has to read out of the corner of his eyes with extreme magnification and as much contrast as is possible. It is interesting to know how you adapted to it and encouraging.
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