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post #31 of 60 Old 04-17-2012, 04:07 PM
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^^^

what did you think?

you really aren't seeing the forest for the trees here...

- chris

 

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post #32 of 60 Old 04-17-2012, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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You keep saying that... Sounds like a pride issue to me, deal with it.

I knew one would come here and act like a been there done that to try to throw a monkey wrench in it!

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #33 of 60 Old 04-17-2012, 04:23 PM
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^^^

yes, it is a pride issue, as is clearly illustrated by your last sentence...

oh well.... enjoy your "discovery"...

- chris

 

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post #34 of 60 Old 04-17-2012, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I will, all you did was say some signals are better than others yea, we know that, this is why people are saying to go against a movie channel like HBO, and that is what I agreed to do. Ok some HD signals are better than others, some DVD movies are better than others, what the heck does that have to do with providing any tangible demonstraratale evidence, article, that says taking material shot in HD, down converted to SD DVD, will look better on the DVD, rather than that HD material being shown on a HD broadcast channel, nothing. So please, these people were kind enough to give me their comments, and I took their suggestions to use a movie channel like HBO and that is what is going to happen. So please, if DVD does win are you afraid I'm trying to make a name for myself, no...Sole Survivor as I'm sure you know is not my name. If there is something ground breaking, please don't try derail the interest in seeing what will happen with the results Sunday. No one is trying to be a hero here or claiming to be an original. I have good equipment and I feel that I noticed somethings that go against the grain of the norm thinking is when comparing upconverted SD material to official HD broadcasts.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #35 of 60 Old 04-17-2012, 08:50 PM
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You might see just a touch more of a difference if your tv was bigger.
On my 65" (which is getting small by today standards), minor imperfections tend to show more.
A 37" widescreen tv is about equivalent to a 27" tube tv as far as vertical size.
Things that look good on my 40" often look hideous on the 65" - esp. SD material.

That being said, like you have discovered, some DVD movies play really nicely and the difference between DVD and even Bluray on a lot of movies just isn't that much of a difference.

Watch Avatar in DVD and then on Bluray - that is one of the few that there is a fairly significant difference between the two. It looks flat on DVD and just pops on Bluray.
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post #36 of 60 Old 04-18-2012, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I'm we'll aware of the larger the TV thing... This is why I picked the 42 inch version to play the 1080i broadcast, and the 54 inch to play the DVD.
Yea on some the difference between a DVD a BD or HVD will bigger in some cases, but never should a DVD look as good as HD DVD.
What we have known is how DVD looks better than 480i TV, and how much better HD DVDs look better than broadcast TV, because of compression, bite rates etc.
Before DVDs were mastered in HD ratios, would we think up conversion looks almost as good as HD, now we know because of compression, and all the other factors, not only does DVD look better than SDTV, but surpassed what, at least in the case of this thread, a badly compressed but still official HD 1080i broadcast using the same footage. Knowing some channels are better than others, I'm going to try his with HBO as suggested. Right now I feel HBO will look better, but we may find that compression destroys the image more than we thought, and the difference between that a good mastered in HD SD DVD, may be minimal. It still will not change the fact, that DVD did surpass SCI FI HD with the same footage material, which makes DVD up-convert to at least an entry level version of HD, if one disagrees with that, than by virtue, they're saying that SCI FI is not HD, and you know what that could open up. Will be interesting to see what happens this weekend.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #37 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Here I took the same scene from this SD DVD HD DVD Combo The Bourne Ultimatum. They are labeled which is the HD side & which is SD side. If this is that close, there is no way a broadcast compression of this movie will beat the up-converted side. I'm still going to go through with the Gladiator test tomorrow though.

I read everywhere about great up-converters, that, they never match the Blu Ray version, or the HD DVD version so they call it almost HD, based upon that. What they never thought of doing is comparing the up-converted version to a another official HD format, broadcast 1080i. Again, if 1080i broadcast is official HD, then SD DVD can become official HD if it looks better than a version that is official HD like HBO HD, ... up-conversion can become under the right circumstances, official HD. They always compare SD DVD up-conversion with the Blu Ray or HD DVD, never another official HD version.

SD Side

HD DVD Side

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #38 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The detail in the left laugh line is more separated in the SD version, vs the way the darkness or I want to say beard stubbles fill the entire laugh line. Which is more real?
The dot in the middle of the forehead is clearer in the SD side, but the eye looks better in the HD side as well as some lip detail.
I did tweak the settings in picture version 3 on the XA2, which is the picture number I use for anamorphic non HD DVD disks.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #39 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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There also is a dot, could be a freckle on the top of lip right in the middle of the lip that is really not seen in the HD version. Look closely.

If you open this photo up... You will notice he does have a slight freckle in the same spot.

http://www.xtremewalls.com/hollywood...mon-063-01.jpg

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #40 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 07:34 AM
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"then SD DVD can become official HD if it looks better than a version that is official HD like HBO HD"

Not true at all. It can become "official" upconverted SD only, as HD refers to the lines of resolution - has nothing to do with the appearance of the pic.

You SD upconverted is just using a very good method of filling in the missing data, but the data is still missing none the less - on true HD the data is originally there and not missing - but file compression and low bitrate will hurt the picture.


On broadcasts, say they are broadcasting at 720P. That is the signal lines of resolution, doesn't mean they are not using heavy compression or low bitrate to save bandwidth. A HD movie on direct TV may make a file that is 4-5 gig (depending on several factors), that SAME HD movie sent uncompressed may take 20 gig.
Which do you think will most likely have a superior picture???? Both are still the HD movie.
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post #41 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 07:50 AM
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People also confuse various amounts of EE for real detail.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #42 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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1982..Gerry Cooneys trainer stops the fight before the referee...Holmes ratains title.. The entire world sees and calls it TKO, Coony's manager says, it was not a TKO, why, under Nevada rules, as soon as the trainger enters the ring disqualification is automatic....so Cooney was disqialified, depite, every place that reviews the fight, calls it the way they seen it....A TKO. But Cooney's manager in an interview stressed the fact that his fighter was not in fact TKOed, but disqualified. ..Forget the rule book, let's still call that GW episode HD because SCI Fi Broadcats in HD, let's call the SD disk that beat it SD because the rule book says so. WRONG... Once you take a native 720/60 signal and convert it to 1080 signal it is no longer 60 frames per second. It is no longer 720p. Whether or not it looks as good as 1080i has to be judged in comparing it with a 1080i signal. Same when you take a signal out of 480 it is no longer 480, whether or not it looks as good as the signal you converted it to must be judged by comparing it to an official signal of the desired aim. That is what are doing here, does it meet or match the aim. In this case, HD DVD won, but it's close. So close that I can gurantee it would beat the 1080i broadcast version of that movie.
In the case that started off the thread, the up conversion surpassed the comparison to the official HD signal. The rule book must be your eyes and side to side comparisons to see if the desired aim for a signal was achieved.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #43 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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As for tomorrow, th battle is on....THE BATTLE OF THE GLADIATORS!

In blue corner Gladiator HBO HD 1080i Directv HDMI

VS

In the red corner, Gladiator, Toshiba XA2 HDMI set to 1080p with Anamorphic SD DVD

From Rome!

I decided to use the same TV same settings, Panasonic 1080p 54 S2

I already havre the material from the DVD!

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #44 of 60 Old 04-21-2012, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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OK you decide
1080i HBO

XA2 upconvert



1080i HBO


XA2 Up-conversion



I think it was close either way..... I gave this a lot of time... Anamorphic is under-rated.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #45 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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The first photo the XA2 wins by a landslide,, the boy photo, look closely freckle for freckle, and the clarity of the left eye. You guys were right, a movie channel like HBO would be different than SCI FI. But, Gladiator is not by best looking anamorphic, I Know Who Killed Me and Casino Royale is far better. But I think I proved a point here. All the reviews that say it is converts to almost blu ray or DVD quality were correct, we saw that in the Bourne Idenity yesterday. But they never compared it to a HD broadcast signal. It's always apples to apples. Never apples to oranges and in doing that, if the apples were considered HD, then we must conclude that given the right DVD, the oranges convert to HD. I decided to use the same TV, the 54 plasma Panasonic 1080p S2. Thanks.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #46 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys... hold on, I may have more footage coming.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #47 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 08:53 AM
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In the first photo HBO won by a decent bit, second photo is just bad, 3rd again HBO.
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post #48 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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1080i HBO


XA2 DVD upconvert


720p HBO


So that's a wrap guys, everyone will have their preferences, but I think I proved up-convert looks as good as what is official HD, given the right DVD and the right equipment up - conversion can become HD.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #49 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Toshiba XA2 HD DVD Player up - conversion over HBO HD!

Breaking clichēs one at a time!

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #50 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 03:15 PM
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Levels are not matched which is skewing the result however, HBO still wins!

SHOT #1:
The upconversion has higher contrast but it also has a "cartoon" flatness that is typical of upconversion. The reason is lack of very low level deatil or HF information.

SHOT #2:
Look at the nose on the upconversion. You can see a stripe pattern that is not in the HBO shot. This is ringing in the horizontal filter in the DVD upconverter.

SHOT #3:
Look at the forehead. The HBO version is soft but also clean. The upconversion not only shows the same stripe pattern as the second shot, but also much more evidence of color sub-sampling errors. Also visible in the cheeks. This is probably due to the REC656 to 709 color space conversion in the DVD player being done with consumer grade filtering. Just not enough nodes in the LUT.

The 720P is irrelevant in this test. HBO broadcasts in 1080i. The 720P was converted in your receiver and again done with consumer grade hardware and software.

Do this shootout on a 120in or larger screen and the differences will really stand out.

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post #51 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Levels are not matched which is skewing the result however, HBO still wins!

SHOT #1:
The upconversion has higher contrast but it also has a "cartoon" flatness that is typical of upconversion. The reason is lack of very low level deatil or HF information.

SHOT #2:
Look at the nose on the upconversion. You can see a stripe pattern that is not in the HBO shot. This is ringing in the horizontal filter in the DVD upconverter.

SHOT #3:
Look at the forehead. The HBO version is soft but also clean. The upconversion not only shows the same stripe pattern as the second shot, but also much more evidence of color sub-sampling errors. Also visible in the cheeks. This is probably due to the REC656 to 709 color space conversion in the DVD player being done with consumer grade filtering. Just not enough nodes in the LUT.

The 720P is irrelevant in this test. HBO broadcasts in 1080i. The 720P was converted in your receiver and again done with consumer grade hardware and software.

Do this shootout on a 120in or larger screen and the differences will really stand out.

You're being bias, looking for the flaws only on the DVD side, not the factors that beat the HBO version. everyone I showed this to said DVD won by a landslide.

Shot 1. You can not see the hair on the right side of of his face, its washed out by harsh lighting on the HBO version. LOOK AT HIS EYE LASHES ON THE DVD VERSION.... Can you even see them on the HBO VERSION? On the DVD the spot under his right nostril is more detailed, and the lip detail on the DVD blows the HBO version away.

Shot 2. The boy has his left eye completely washed out or faded, you can not see the top of the boys eyelid on the HBO version, you can see it in the DVD version are you serious? Look at the big freckle to his lower right side of his face, it way more detailed on the DVD, WAY MORE. The harsh lighting hides the freckles on the right side of his face on the HBO version. Look at the pours on the under the right side of his mouth, how they are not as detailed on the HBO version. Look at the detail of his lips and the overall texture.

Shot 3 LOOK AT THE EYEBROWS.... That's it right there.... Look at the eyelashes on the right eye... You can't see them on the HBO version. Look at the longer eyelash hair on the right eyebrow...clear on the DVD version, almost looks like a scar on the HBO version. Next look at his eyes. No contest. Next, look at the big hair to the left side of his mustache, almost faded on the HBO version, clear as day on the DVD version.

The HBO details ARE CLEARLY WASHED OUT in comparison to the DVD version, harsh lighting killed most of it. I can clearly point out little details that appear on the DVD version like freckles that can not be seen on the HBO version.

I know you asked me to do this test, and I know you didn't like results, it appears that you're looking at the bad of the DVD and not the bad of HBO.
No way my man, face reality, DVD BEAT IT, now you want me to try it on a bigger set.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #52 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I have company over, I showed them the eyebrows of shot 3. They can't understand how you can even make a case. I'm not saying there arn't any flaws to upscailing, there are flaws to HBO compression, what you did was selectively bring out the flaws to up scailing, and ignored the artifacts and problems of the HBO compression broadcasts. The flaws of the HBO version and its lack to bring forth little details as clearly as the DVD version, outweighs the bad things associated with DVD. I understand why you're being selective, you can't accept DVD won this based upon your statement in post 11 of this thread. You stated.

"Quite true. In the example above the DVD looks better to me. But no way will an upconverted DVD beat a true 1080i mastered ATSC broadcast."

I know no one likes to be wrong, but, hey this was a wash!



Toshiba upconversion beats HBO HD!

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #53 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, the stripe pattern you spoke of in scene #2 on his nose was not due to upconversion, I noticed it in some of the 1080i shots, it's the way I capture the image sometimes.
The harsh lighting washed out his freckles on the right side, the big freckle on the right lower side is clearer on the DVD and his left eye lid is clearer on the DVD version. This scene I admit was close. The 1st one one gave it away.
I re- took it. The stripe pattern on the nose is gone. I also added this version to replace the original one. Also, in the DVD version you can see 2 little freckles to the left of the large spot on the lower side of his right face, barlely present in the HBO version due to the lighting washing it out. DVD won this.

1080i HBO


XA2 Up-conversion



Yea THE XA2.... Take that Blu Ray! HD DVD speaks from the grave processing anamorphic disks to high definition. Yes I do have 2 blu ray players, but this blows it away. I would like to upconvert Casino Royale on the XA2, and see just how close it comes to a blu ray version if one exists. Wouldn't that be funny???

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #54 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 08:03 PM
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Well I guess you will be saving a lot of money. Just buy DVDs and you can also cancel your HD cable and/or satellite subscriptions.

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post #55 of 60 Old 04-22-2012, 08:56 PM
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I almost bought Casino Royal (new version) today for $5 at BB just to see how it compares to the HD version I have.
I don't have my HD DVD players any more but do have a panasonic 300 that looks pretty good.

Try Avatar - I didn't like the DVD version at all, but did like the bluray version - much more pop.
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post #56 of 60 Old 04-23-2012, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Well I guess you will be saving a lot of money. Just buy DVDs and you can also cancel your HD cable and/or satellite subscriptions.

Because DVD topped HBO, that means I'm not going to need Directv anymore?
Why do you have to make a comment like that just because the way things turned out? The XA2 can't upconvert TV. I can save a lot of money since I have a big store that quality used DVDs for 3 to 5 dollars. But because a quality DVD topped 1080i HBO, doesn't mean it is equal to HD DVD and blu ray. All honesty, we seen Saturday morning HD DVD The Bourne Idenity beat the flip SD side, but seeing how close it came to matching a true 1080p uncompressed signal, you guys couldn't tell it was going to beat a compressed broadcast signal? It was closer than I thought, and you were right, as far as HBO beating SCI FI. But clearly, the XA2 will take not all DVDS and make them better than 1080i HBO. Just the mastered in HD anamorphic ones, the ones with a 2.35:1 or 40 aspect ratio is a guarantee, at least for the set up I have. But, I like the best picture possible, if it's better than HBO but not as good as blu ray , I'm still buying the Blu Ray. The Silicon Optix HQV processor along with the reon chip has me wondering that if it came that close in losing to the real HD DVD, how would match it up against the Sony BDP 350 BD player with a BD disk in it. Now I see there was a reason why the XA2 was 800 dollars.
I knew what I was seeing. See I don't fall into clitchēs, Free Thought teaches me this. "Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas". That dogma that SD can not convert to HD is now a myth. Thanks though, you're the one who doubted the SCI FI HD and asked me to go against HBO, and it did give the XA2 a better fight.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #57 of 60 Old 04-23-2012, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacofortacos View Post

I almost bought Casino Royal (new version) today for $5 at BB just to see how it compares to the HD version I have.
I don't have my HD DVD players any more but do have a panasonic 300 that looks pretty good.

Try Avatar - I didn't like the DVD version at all, but did like the bluray version - much more pop.

A trash DVD will not make it, I tried it. It has to be a DVD with a good mastered in HD transfer from it original elements. I'm a realist, if a HD DVD looked better & beat the SD version, than we can assume that it will not match a blu ray disk. But what has me wondering is how much closer it will come. In my opinion, the XA2 is better for HD DVD than the Sony BDP 350 is for Blu Ray Disk. I would like to see. The new version of Casino Royale and I know Who Killed me are the best DVDs I seen. Yea I would interested in converting one of those on the XA2, to the blu ray disk on the Sony BDP 350, just to see how closer it comes, let me stress I know the XA2 will never beat it, I just want to see how closer it may come to the SD version losing out to the HD DVD version of The Bourne Idenity. I did find out last night Casino Royale is on Bu Ray. Will see, do I want to spend another 30 something dollars for a movie I already have for this experiment?

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #58 of 60 Old 04-24-2012, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, that's a wrap guys, thanks for your input, and thanks to the many readers who didn't post as this thread got quite a few hits.

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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post #59 of 60 Old 05-11-2012, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post

You decide? DVD beat 1080i broadcast.

DVD all the way over digital broadcast; I'll grant only that the .1 (HD) broadcast channel quality has gotten very very good.

Any good (or most recent) upscaling DVD player takes PQ a small step better than the best of HD OTA broadcast, whether it's 720p or 1080i.

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #60 of 60 Old 05-12-2012, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, proves my point, up conversion of DVD does in some cases convert to HD, because it didn't work at first it became scripture up conversion does not really convert to HD, not anymore. Clichē broken here on this thread. I knew what I was seeing. If people don't consider that HD because it doesn't equal HD DVD, than you have no choice and must say that sat HD is not HD quality because upconverted anamorphic DVD beat it!

"the evidence before B/TQE at this time suggests
that the best delivery format would be 720p"

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf
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