You decide? DVD beat 1080i broadcast. - AVS Forum
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DVD Players (Standard Def) > You decide? DVD beat 1080i broadcast.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 11:03 AM 04-15-2012
This will be controversial. I have video footage but it came out shaky, I will do a side by side video with a tripod soon.

I have on DVR 1080i, this GW episode and we have seasons 1& 2 of the series, from the same scene I captured one on anamorphic DVD up converted to 1080p using the XA2 HD DVD.

The other from the Directv HD DVR sci fi.

Both TV's are the same, the Panasonc Plasma 2010 S2 series, ALL settings the SAME. !080i is the 42 inch model, DVD is the 54.

The one that says SCI FI is 1080i (real HD) other up-converted to HD.




CLICK THUMBNAILS BELOW TO EXPAND TO SEE BETTER DETAIL!
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wingnut4772's Avatar wingnut4772 11:04 AM 04-15-2012
There's no way to accurately tell on a computer monitor
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 11:29 AM 04-15-2012


Trust me I stood in the middle of both rooms, the results are pretty much the way it was live. Obviously the DVD is pushing a warmer tone, but that could be adjusted to a cooler zone. Here is a side by side. Anamorphic DVD is under-rated and should NOT be grouped in the same realm as regular broadcast SD TV.

No one can claim DVD can not up convert to what is considered HD for TV, not that DVD is comparable to Blu Ray or HD DVD, but to what is supposed to be broadcast HD.
MrBobb's Avatar MrBobb 12:16 PM 04-15-2012
There's nothing new here. Upconverted DVD can do OK sometimes depending on material.

I see more details on the true 1080i but less pleasing, at first glance,than the "made-up" DVD. DVD processing smoothed out harsh lighting.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 01:25 PM 04-15-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sole_Survivor View Post



Trust me I stood in the middle of both rooms, the results are pretty much the way it was live. Obviously the DVD is pushing a warmer tone, but that could be adjusted to a cooler zone. Here is a side by side. Anamorphic DVD is under-rated and should NOT be grouped in the same realm as regular broadcast SD TV.

No one can claim DVD can not up convert to what is considered HD for TV, not that DVD is comparable to Blu Ray or HD DVD, but to what is supposed to be broadcast HD.

Yup, my wife said the same thing, I agree, but I still say over all, if you look at the overall picture, the texture is far better on the DVD. Most likely the compression of broadcast TV. The beer can is more vibrant, skin tone is more accurate on the DVD, are better features than the more detail. However, I see more detail in her hair strands on the DVD, her lips looked washed out on the 1080i version as well. You have overall texture and smoothness detail vs resolution detail with a rougher edge. I think no matter what people pick on this one, my point was if someone was over they would never know that wasn't HD, where if I had on Chiller SD, it looks like S%#t. You can't up-convert tv to HD, but you can up-convert Anamorphic DVD to HD quality. I think I proved that with the experiment.
After you click on the thumnail, click on it again to make it bigger....then in another screen do the same with the other thumbnail....then with your mouse click back and forth, and then say one blows away the other one?????... you can't. I like the DVD version myself, but that' me.
NOTE... keep in mind this DVD or any DVD will not look HD with a standard DVD player on a 480i 4.3 TV with composite connection. This is what great equipment, 1080p motion plasma, via HDMI XA2 HD DVD player could achieve. Now that DVD's have the added 33% more resolution and are widescreen is what made up conversion possible. The battle was years ago you could never up-convert 4.3 to 16.9 without distorting and stretching out the image. That was 80% of the battle. I know people like traditionalism, and will never admit DVD could ever compare to HD, because of the huge contrast between them years ago, I was like that too, but now I see different, ratios, equipment, such as players cables etc. has improved.

Thanks for your comments!
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 02:08 PM 04-15-2012
Detail depends on what you're looking at, look at the eye lashes on the corner of her right eye with both thumbnails clicked on twice fully opened. Then look for vertical lines in the lips. The DVD version shows way more eye lashes and lip lines, better overall texture for color tone.

ANAMORPHIC DVD 480i BEAT A REAL HD 1080i BROADCAST! Same TVS...same settings, SAME SCENE ....a modern version of David and Goliath!

Milestone, yup I was crazy enough to record the series, and have the DVD, and same model TVs.

People wrongfully threw SD via cable etc in the batch with anamorphic DVD, underrated todays DVDs on a wide scale, as well as what great equipment can do. Also, compression is worse than what they thought. Also, interlacing SUCKS! There's the clincher, what I have been trying to say for years. No anamorphic is not HD DVD, but my point is they DO convert to HD. If the 1080i broadcast in this thread is good enough to label as official HD, then the upvconverted DVD is HD also, that was my point.
A lot of people woke up to a new idea today trust me. Again open up the thumbnails by clicking it again after you open it up, do the same with the other thumbnail and toggle back and forth, look her eyelash strands on the right corner of the right eye and underneath the eye, and the vertical lines in her lips, color tone smoothness, LOOK AT TNE SILVER BOTTOM PART OF THE CORDLESS PHONE... THE SMALL INDIVIDUAL HOLES, THE BEER CAN, it's a wash.
pacofortacos's Avatar pacofortacos 09:37 PM 04-15-2012
Only problem is it isn't a real 1080i broadcast, it is a compressed Direct tv signal that is then processed by the Direct tv equipment.

But still, given a good DVD quality copy and quality player - they can come pretty close to true HD.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 04:03 AM 04-16-2012
I know what you're saying, yes a good 16.9 transfer will come close true HD, terrestrial is way better than Sat. But my point was anamorphic DVD won against something that is still being considered official HD, as a result I may be giving Directv a black eye, but that wasn't my aim. I may not know as much as the tech mumbo jumbo, but had I HDTV since 2002, and I seen how upconvertion failed in the 90s, I remember my first Sony up converting DVD player, they did nothing, the DVDs were 4.3. Or a poorer form of letterboxed, and up converters did nothing on CRT, both rear projection and direct view. But with fixed pixel displays, the pixels being inserted by the upconverted players, are assisted somehow by the pixels having to show the native resolution of the tv, I don't know if I'm making any sense, in other words the pixels are there where as they weren't before. The 33% more pixels of the anamorphic DVD were not there as well, now that they have HD aspect ratio and are mastered in HD, on top of it, the advent of HDMI, these players like the XA2 HD DVD, things are different now. Some people are still with the mind set of the failed upconvertion process at its conception. I had the luxury of having the same TV models in both rooms, so when I saw the DVR say 2006 for this episode, I knew we had the box set, I said I'm going to try something to prove something. My wife and I sat in the middle of both rooms and watched scence to scene, and we said look at this????? What people ignorantly put in the same group as SDTV beat a badly compressed, but still official HD signal. Anyone who can look at her eye lash strands and that beer can with both images completely opened and up and insist the 1080i version is better still wants to hang on to the cliche. You can not even see the individual strands of the eye lashes on the right upper corner of her right eye on the 1080i version. Same camera same settings for everything, same TV, same scene, I wanted to prove something and I know I did. You think that DVD looks good, I have a movie on anamorphic "I Know Who Killed Me" there is no way anyone on the planet would tell the difference if it was HBO HD or not. I can see the finger print lines clearly in a scene on that one, the entire disk is amazing. Well I said enough, the pictures themselves as they say speak a thousand words.
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper 05:50 AM 04-16-2012
Just because something is broadcast in 1080i (or 720p) doesn't mean it will look good. 1080i and 720p are just HDTV broadcast standards. They address nothing about the content and how it's created wrt compression, filtering etc. You can find many examples of what you showed and many examples of the opposite.

larry
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 06:50 AM 04-16-2012
True, but my point remains, up converted DVD did surpass something that is still supposed to be good enough to be considered HD. I never said every DVD up converted will better than a 1080i broadcast. My point was to stress how underrated today's anamorphic DVDs upconvert to surpass some materal what is considered to be HD, which results in the fact that some do really upconvert to HD standard quality.
Glimmie's Avatar Glimmie 01:08 PM 04-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacofortacos View Post

Only problem is it isn't a real 1080i broadcast, it is a compressed Direct tv signal that is then processed by the Direct tv equipment.

But still, given a good DVD quality copy and quality player - they can come pretty close to true HD.

Quite true. In the example above the DVD looks better to me. But no way will an upconverted DVD beat a true 1080i mastered ATSC broadcast.

Even with the increased compression on DBS, try a comparison of a DVD against a premium pay movie channel like HBO. I'll bet that will be a lot easier to see the HD difference.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 01:35 PM 04-16-2012
Oh I agree, thanks for your input. I agree, I said it above. I have CSI Miami on DVD, does not compare to the ota version I record... The disk isn't transferred as good as the Ghost W one.
But they are making them better. The only movie I have that I feel will beat HBO HD is "I Know Who Killed Me" Linsey Loham. A Blu Ray will beat it, but the transfer is so unbelievable on this anamorphic I can't imagine the compression of broadcast will match it.
Again, yea I agree with you, but my point to prove that given the right disk, the right equipment, DVD can upconvert to surpass a low level of what is considered HD as we seen above which makes it HD regardless it's not top notch Hd
I'll do a smart search for that movie, if I record it HD I'll do a comparison, that has me intrigued to.
Glimmie's Avatar Glimmie 02:06 PM 04-16-2012
If a source is high quality SD component video, like a 1990s era film transfer to digital tape, then upconversion to HD can be very good. Showtime got away with this in the early 2000s.

What kills upconversion is NTSC (or PAL for that matter) encoding. Once that NTSC footprint with it's rather severe chroma filtering is burned in, it can never be fully restored back to a good component SD signal.

I have been watching a lot of TCM movies lately. I really can't tell if they are true HD transfers or wide screen SD component upconversions. Those older 1960 and 70s prints and IPs were a tad soft anyway so it's really hard to tell.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 03:09 PM 04-16-2012
Hind sight is 20 20, if people were honest, they would admit that before this thread, if someone told them, I could get a SD DVD, and get HD footage look better on the unconverted player rather than watching that HD material on a 1080i channel, they would have said I was out of my mind. It is amazing how underrated todays anamorphic (mastered in HD) DVDs are.
Now if you want to degrade the SCI FI channel and say its really not a HD channel, you know what that is going to open up? If we state its HD (a lower form of it seems to be the consensus here) then you must say that in some cases, not all, DVD can upconvert to HD since the DVD beat the lower quality HD broadcast signal, which almost no one thought could happen.
pacofortacos's Avatar pacofortacos 03:10 PM 04-16-2012
Some of the Star Wars movies will come close to HD also.

You do realize that the HD DVD player you are using is one of the best upconverting players out there don't you??? Almost legendary in that regard

The standard HD DVD player (A3, etc) weren't slouches either - many bluray players cannot make the same claim with DVD's though.
pacofortacos's Avatar pacofortacos 03:19 PM 04-16-2012
Well yes and no.
DVD's come in many flavors - some good transfers, some not so good. In fact, at one time it was thought that studios were going to stop doing the really good DVD transfers so as to boost bluray sales - since on quite a few movies there isn't that big of a difference.
I've watched quite a few blurays that really aren't that much nicer than the DVD version. There are exceptions though Avatar has a huge difference between the two.

Nothing like going from VHS to DVD.

Also as said above, just because a station is "HD" doesn't mean they are showing a true "HD" version - some will just play the DVD version since I guess it is cheaper than the HD version??? It is easy to tell when they use the 4:3 version, but DVD's come in 4:3 and widescreen.

Oh and I used to own quite a few HD DVD movies and players, so yes I would have believed you if you told me your DVD being played on the X2 was nicer that sat. version
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 04:04 PM 04-16-2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacofortacos View Post

Some of the Star Wars movies will come close to HD also.

You do realize that the HD DVD player you are using is one of the best upconverting players out there don't you??? Almost legendary in that regard

The standard HD DVD player (A3, etc) weren't slouches either - many bluray players cannot make the same claim with DVD's though.

I did say you can't use standard equipment, yes you need good equipment to make it HD, I'm also using a Panny Plasma that passed all 1080 lines of moving resolution. I admit I tweaked the XA2 settings for this disk, settings not on the others. I also have the A2 and the A3, but I did get it to work. I hear the Oppo is better than mine. I did read somewhere, this is debateable, if I used 720p or even 1080i for the the DVD player to scale it, then the tv would also work to convert the image to 1080p. So you get two conversions. Just a thought. Anyway, the XA2 was in 1080p. OH BTW, Casino Rayale, the new one looks amazing on Anamorphic, I think that one will will beat a HBO/ Showtime version, not 100% sure though, let me do a smart search. I wouldn't put it up against Blu Ray, but it's so amazing I think it could take the compressed version out.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 04:23 PM 04-16-2012
I did a search of three anamorphic DVDs I will match against 1080i HBO, Lord Of The Rings, Casino Royale, and I know Who Killed Me, unfortunately, not are showing up to be aired soon on my smart search. I will keep looking though for another DVD in my collection.
pacofortacos's Avatar pacofortacos 04:48 PM 04-16-2012
I had the Oppo upconverting DVD player years ago 970/971 whichever. The Toshiba HD-DVD player surpassed it IMO. Nicer pic to the eye, maybe not on a test pattern but on every movie I played the toshiba was nicer.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 05:04 PM 04-16-2012
That's good to know Paco... Ok sorry to say, I smart searched all DVDs I feel would beat the HBO version, unless my smart search has failed, none of the following movies are scheduled on Directv

The Amityville Horror..new one
The Exorsism Of Emily Rose
Into The Blue
Casino Royale new version!
Hide and Seek
I Know Who Killed Me.
Lord Of The Rings
The Perfect Stranger
Gladiator

All these movies state they are "Mastered in High Definition 2.35:1 or 2.40: Anamorphic Widescreen". The 1.85 comedies pale in comparison to the above.

Like I said not all DVDs look like this, but I would put my money on these over any 1080i broadcast, but I can't say for sure. You can't go into something being dogmatic. But all these look better than the DVD example I have in this thread. If you hear of these movies coming on let me know. Thanks guys.
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 06:13 PM 04-16-2012
My smart search is not working but my Directv app is, I found I know Who Killed Me its on lifetime HD. I seen Dances With Wolves & The Bodyguard, looked great, is this a good contender for a DVD HD Showdown?
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 07:35 PM 04-16-2012
OK...

We have Gladiator on HBO HD Sunday 3:20AM as well. HBO HD 501 will be in 1080i on the 1080p Panasonic Plasma 2010 TPC 42 S2 Directv DVR HDMI Monster Cable.

Settings will match exactly to:

The 1080p Panasonic Plasma TPC 54 S2 Toshiba XA2 HD DVD upscailing to 1080p, Monster HDMI DVD release 2003 2.35:1 Anamorphic Widescreen.

Will see. This will be interesting
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 01:10 PM 04-17-2012
why is the op so surprised by this?
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 01:46 PM 04-17-2012
The same reason why everyone else is. Now this was common knowledge?
Show me any real article from a tech site expert that states you can upconvert a reg DVD to surpass the same HD material being broadcasted on a HD channel. That's why people are saying they don't think this would happen if it was HBO, telling me they feel DVD only showed a better picture because Sci Fi has bad compression.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 02:02 PM 04-17-2012
^^^

you need to spend some time in the broadcast tv threads... if you did, your results wouldn't shock you...
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 02:06 PM 04-17-2012
I said articles by an official tech site expert.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 03:41 PM 04-17-2012
^^^

such as?

you are missing the point... you aren't breaking any new ground here...
Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 04:08 PM 04-17-2012
Caron Bale, HD Guru, morrisy Technology Evanglist, I could name a bunch of them, never heard of one of them?
Show me any real article from a tech site expert that states you can upconvert a reg DVD to surpass the same HD material being broadcasted on a HD channel.
ccotenj's Avatar ccotenj 04:12 PM 04-17-2012
again, you are missing the point....

read the following post until you understand... also, read through the broadcast tv thread as i suggested...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Just because something is broadcast in 1080i (or 720p) doesn't mean it will look good. 1080i and 720p are just HDTV broadcast standards. They address nothing about the content and how it's created wrt compression, filtering etc. You can find many examples of what you showed and many examples of the opposite.

larry


Sole_Survivor's Avatar Sole_Survivor 04:24 PM 04-17-2012
I thought so.
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